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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 01, 2018 10:51PM

. . . along with the references.

Keep it empirical, not miracle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2018 10:53PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: StillAnon ( )
Date: April 01, 2018 10:59PM

Most rational people don't.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 01, 2018 11:05PM


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Posted by: diangelo ( )
Date: April 01, 2018 11:07PM

From my experience most people base it on observed feelings when reading scripture/participating in religious activity.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 01, 2018 11:45PM


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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 01:55AM

But science is limited to the subset of phenomena that occur in a predictable, repeatable fashion. Outside of that, science wisely says “not my job”. Religion dropped the ball by walling itself off rather than integrating new knowledge. Apparently GA-level power really does corrupt absolutely. There should be a reasonable place for mysticism in the modern world. Maybe there is, but it just isn’t in religion because they fetched it up so bad.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 02:46AM

Stupid religious ideas are confirmed by a burning in the bosom.

Figures.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 03:21AM

I still don't know what the hell a burning in the bosom is. I don't think they know either they just make that sh#t up.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 03:35AM

Eventually it moves up into the chest cavity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2018 03:35AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 03:41AM

I guess that's the only way. Never made sense to me. Well actually the entire religion never made sense to me. Always had to dumb myself down to try and understand it.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 03:53AM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2018 03:54AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Hwint ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 06:23PM

How can rational people believe Marxism?

All Marx's predictions were falsified. During his life Marx omitted data from new versions of Capital when events developed ed in a way that contradicted his thesis.

Nobody in the economic mainstream takes Marx seriously. His ideas, theories and terms have zero influence on economics. He is mentioned in economics only as a footnote to greater minds like David Ricardo.

Nonetheless many otherwise educated people take Marx seriously and think his work has relevance to understanding and explaining the world.

People believe what they want to believe.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 12:16PM


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Posted by: diangelo ( )
Date: April 01, 2018 11:05PM

God's law is immutable, so it should be able to be experimentally derived. In a way, science is the most godlike possible thing.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 01, 2018 11:06PM


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Posted by: captainklutz ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 01:43AM

Steve, for the life of me, I don't know how science would work with religion.

I know people who have faith. Somehow they can just put aside that fact that there is no way to prove anything; they just know whatever their beliefs are, are true.

Myself, I've never been able to just toss aside logic and give in to faith. There are too many things that have gone completely sideways on this planet for me to believe that a benign "god" would just give in and either let or make things happen that way. Either that, or she's been PMSing for the last few thousand years.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 02:49AM

On the bright side, while God condemns you to the eternal toaster. at least the others just won’t give you presents.

No questions asked, no proof provided.

It’s all making sense now.



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2018 05:37AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Richard Foxe ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 01:28AM

(or at least one of them)

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 01:42AM

tell us how so.

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Posted by: Richard Foxe ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 02:22AM


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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 02:53AM

From the fact finders: “Prove it.“

From the faith minders: “Bow your head and say ‘yes.’“

Put that in your Blind Trust and hope it earns interest.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2018 03:52AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 02:09PM

Are you using the computer and posting through the Internet?

Or are you posting through prayer?

I’m just trying to clarify if you’re relying on science to appear here.

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 02:50AM

No science for this belief. Rational people believe in religious stupidity to have a guarantee that they will go on to live after they die.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 03:40AM


Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2018 03:48AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: April 03, 2018 12:55AM

there is an after-life.

The older you get, the more people you love move to that neighborhood.

If death is nothing more than being asleep without dreaming,I'm OK with that. But I would really love to see my best friend again. She has been gone for three very long years now.

Not to mention any number of other friends and relations that I miss.

This pre-supposes that if you run into people you didn't care for during Earth-life, you can continue to ignore them in Eternity.

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Posted by: captainklutz ( )
Date: April 03, 2018 01:38AM

Hi Catnip...what you've said is the only reason I hope I'm wrong about gawd and all that. There have been too many good people that I've lost in this life that I would love to see again. A few who I wish I could apologize to for being an idiot as a teenager.

I'd also really like to see my little brother again if for nothing else than to ask him why the hell he didn't call me when he started getting ill. I actually think I know why and he would have been right; I would have dragged his sorry a** right back the hospital. He might still have died, but he wouldn't have been alone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2018 01:39AM by captainklutz.

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Posted by: Pooped ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 02:55AM

I agree with the "opiate" definition for religion. My Evangelical friend gains enormous self-confidence and ego from insisting that she is totally in touch with her Lord and Savior and that she knows everything she says and does is "through" Him, true, and righteous. How comforting to know you can never be wrong because God is always in your corner.

Wouldn't life be more enjoyable if you KNEW that there was a fairy or troll waiting at the next bridge to hand over a pot of gold? Wouldn't you enjoy KNOWING that all your enemies are going to that dark place of fire and brimstone for all of time.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 03:16AM

Lord knows, they should (if only He could).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2018 03:18AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Queen Gertrude ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 04:34AM

"Thou dost protest too much methinks."

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 04:36AM

If thou dost not like it, then do not read it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2018 04:40AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Queen Gertrude ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 04:43AM

"A chord has been struck."

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 04:47AM

You’re the one who weighed in with your silencer after your hot button got plinked.

This isn’t a monarchy, Gert. Sorry your feelings got hurt.

Buck up. Gimme the science, not the seance.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2018 05:07AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: MondayAMCoffee ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 05:10AM

Been a long weekend, eh? A disturbance in your force.

(goes back to drinking the Monday AM java)

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 05:11AM

May the caffeine be with you.

Meanwhile, your godforce seems to have the jitters. Might want to tell it to cut back on the cups.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2018 05:20AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: jstone ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 05:19AM

People are complicated and double think is easy, everyone does it. We compromise our supposed beliefs, goals or whatever all the time. Few people are ever just one thing. The science of us is that it's all dependent on which side of the bed we got out of. Such internal conflicting personal thoughts and desires are the seed bed of religion, madness and also happiness.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 05:28AM

for producing “religious“ or “spiritual” sensations is also where epileptic seizures are triggered.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2018 05:29AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 06:40AM

-donkeys complaining to their owners in human tongue;

-a Planet Earth whose genesis takes place in six days, with its creator God then resting up on the seventh;

-a local itinerant preacher-teacher walking on water as a show-and-tell for his followers;

-formerly righteous white people instantly turning into evil brown people;

-rubbing human spit-saturated mud on a guy’s eyes to cure his blindness;

-everyone in the world drowning except for eight people on a boat crammed with two animals of every kind for use in restocking the entire planet’s decimated animal population, not to mention regenerating the global human population;

-a man telling his wife that God has ordered him to take up the holy practice of Bible-based multi-wifery and warning her that if she doesn’t agree to go along, an angel with a flaming sword will kill him;

-people walking through walls without the benefit of a door;

-turning a woman into a pillar of salt for disobeying God;

-prophets of the Old Testament God condoning the killing of homosexuals;

-prophets of the Mormon Kingdom God, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, condoning slavery and blood atonement;

-the Judeo-Christian God ordering the slaughter of the first-born children of Egypt, with the Mormon God following up by ordering the massacring of 120 innocent men, women and children at Mountain Meadows;

-6-ft.-tall people living on the moon dressed as Quakers;

-other people living on the sun;

-a burning bush speaking to a prophet for several hours in the name of God, doing so without burning up;

-a devil morphing into a snake, then giving a woman an apple to eat in violation of God’s command and then God blaming her for introducing sin into the world;

-a money-digging occultist translating gold plates written in an unknown language that he digs up from a hole in a hill behind his house, returning them to a former early American general-turned-angel who had first given them to him, taking them up to heaven where no one can see them;

-etc., etc., and etc.

This is where the brain of a “rational“ human being kicks in and declares, “Hell, yeah, that’s the ticket!”

Riiiiight. Quit rationalizing and gimme the science.

And if you can’t do that but, instead, insist on believing this bunk, your “reason” is . . . ?



Edited 22 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2018 08:47AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 05:25PM

Religion isn't science. It's more akin to literature or art -- another way of talking about the world. Because it doesn't meet the standards of scientific proof does not make it lacking in worth. One just has to take it for what it is. Some people call them "God stories." I like to call it "meaningful myth."

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Posted by: Mother Who KNows ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 06:14PM

I'll show you the money!

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 12:19PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 12:42PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 06:16PM

I am not a member of any religion but seem like I have a lot of 'beliefs' in common with Einstein. So, I don't understand what is covered by 'religious stupidity'. Some 'scientists' talk of things not too 'scientific'. For example, Einstein talked of 'intuition, inspiration, imagination, believing without proof, etc.'. Is that what you are referring to as 'religious stupidity'???

I believe in intuition and inspiration. Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution. It is, strictly speaking, a real factor in scientific research.

Certainly there are things worth believing. I believe in the brotherhood of man and the uniqueness of the individual. But if you ask me to prove what I believe, I can't. You know them to be true but you could spend a whole lifetime without being able to prove them. The mind can proceed only so far upon what it knows and can prove. There comes a point where the mind takes a leap—call it intuition or what you will—and comes out upon a higher plane of knowledge, but can never prove how it got there. All great discoveries have involved such a leap.

Albert Einstein

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 12:20PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 12:43PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Dog is my Copilot ( )
Date: April 02, 2018 09:05PM

Why the repeated demand for proof, when you know there is none? Truly curious.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 12:23PM

The believers are doing a great job of proving that. Sit back and enjoy the ride.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 12:24PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Ceciland ( )
Date: April 05, 2018 11:21PM

'is easier to believe than to think'

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Posted by: OntheDownlow ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 04:21PM

The empirical method is a tool that is used to give credence to things/facts by trying to discredit. The assumption is that if you repeat the experiment over and over, and it yields the same results, then it must be factual. However, it can never reach 100% error proof.

Why? 1. Some argue that you can never know with absolute certainty that you have accounted for all the variables.

2. How do we know the empirical method is the right tool for the job and when that is so?

3. If the empirical method is the most sound method to give credit to facts, then how do we explain simple emotions that we feel such as love, jealousy, anger, or intellectual like I.Q.?
Have you ever seen a smart student from text books but clueless to ambiguous social interactions?

I am not saying that I believe in the burning in the gut is the Holy Ghost. The science is that they discredit the empirical method as being the only tool that can determine fact from fiction. They may see it as a tool, but not the only tool.

Hopefully, this makes sense. I don't have a mathematical formula to draw up.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 04:50PM

OntheDownlow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 3. If the empirical method is the most sound
> method to give credit to facts, then how do we
> explain simple emotions that we feel such as love,
> jealousy, anger, or intellectual like I.Q.?
> Have you ever seen a smart student from text books
> but clueless to ambiguous social interactions?

Human emotions aren't a question of fact or not fact.
And that we feel them (and what triggers them), while complex, is explained quite nicely by biology.

> I am not saying that I believe in the burning in
> the gut is the Holy Ghost. The science is that
> they discredit the empirical method as being the
> only tool that can determine fact from fiction.
> They may see it as a tool, but not the only tool.

It's not the "only tool" that can do so. And I've never heard any scientist say so.
It *is* the most reliable tool we have for doing so. That's been demonstrated billions of times over. Human emotions are not a reliable tool at all for doing so.

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Posted by: OntheDownlow ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 05:47PM

two things:

1 the biology can only asses heart rate or sweating etc. these are physical responses to the emotions, not the emotion itself. how do you quantify your love for your children? how does it vary from another parent? do you have a flawless method to measure it? is it the empirical method?

2 you said the EM is the most reliable tool we have. how do you know that the EM is 100% reliable? can you prove? for example, we know today that UV rays exist. did UV rays exist 500 years ago? did we have a tool to measure them? if no, then how do we know they existed. what exists today, that we do not yet have the tech to measure? we dont know what we cant measure, but that doesnt mean "IT" doesnt exist.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 12:26PM

It certainly beats religious superstition.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 04:52PM

They have a chemical imbalance in the brain leaving them susceptible. Is that science enough?

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Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 05:01PM

From the fact finders: “Prove it.“

From the faith minders: “You can't prove that He doesn't exist.“

That's what I get from them most-often anyway.

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Posted by: Gertrude ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 05:14PM

It's simple. Humans have evolved because of our ability to reason and imagine. Our survival instinct is what drives us. The will to survive along with our imagination has created a way (religion/a belief in an afterlife) for us to imagine that we live beyond death. It satisfies our brain's need to find a way out - to escape death.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 12:27PM


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Posted by: 6 iron ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 05:42PM

Let's talk communication.

There are several ways to communicate. We usually think of verbal, or reading and watching. Verbal communication can be all lies. Scientific studies can be slightly or majorly manipulated.

Who funded the study, did they eliminate participants....

There is deception by lies, by whitewashing, omitions, twisting, tainted, only pointing out positives, missleading, controlling access to information.

Science can imply that a theory is fact. Religion can also do it.

Mormonism lies, makes stuff up, twists, controls information... Way more than other mainstream religions. So as far as religions go, Mormons have experienced lies and deception at a higher rate than many other religions.

Advertising, politicians, leaders, parents, books...can all have a less than honest slant. Every organization has an agenda, which is to survive at all costs and what they can get away with.

But humans are constantly being lied to, wether knowingly, or unknowingly.

Then there is nonverbal communication. It in some ways more honest and powerful than verbal communication. If you can see it in their eyes, facial expressions, actions..

You can see if peoples actions correspond to their words. You can fact check. We have Google to read testimonials, studied, we can try things to see for our selves..

Then there are dreams. Our subconscious goes crazy 8 hours a night, and sometimes our conscious mind can remember it.

Then there is your spirit feeling things you are exposed to, like love of a companion, child, parent, friend. We have emotions, but also have spiritual connections.

When you are exposed to truth, you can feel it, but you have to be in a faithful atmosphere. As you feel spiritual, your emotions and neurotransmitters can amplify those feelings, creating a circular loop.

But this only works with faith. But sometimes these feelings can be misinterpreted, just like anyform of communication. But sometimes they can be very powerful resulting in receiving very specific revelation, like a voice, etc. It all depends on the level of faith you are willing to exercise.

The heavens what us to communicate with our spirits through faith. So if you don't wish to exercise that level of faith, you personally won't know yourself. You will have to rely on others testimonials. But usually, if you aren't willing to try it yourself, you won't believe others.

My point is, there are several forms of communication, all accurate or inaccurate to some degree. But to personally have a connection to the heavens, you have to personally exercize faith. Or rely on someone else's experiences. Someone that was willing to put in the time and faith.

But connecting to the heavens is only half the battle, and the easy half. Your faith will be tested, way beyond what you think is necessary. Realizing the fraud of Mormonism is a test of your faith that we exmos are going through.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 12:30PM

Science tests theories to see if their elements stand up to critical examination and are empirically proven to be factual.

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Posted by: Holy Moly ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 07:58PM

Firstly Stevie, the phrasing of your question is idiotic. There is no person who "believes" religiously based on empirical science. The basis of religion is faith but you already know that. Secondly, why ask the question in a forum where you are so heavily protected by your disciples. It suggests you actually want to have a debate but the reality is that you and your worshipee's delete the comments of everyone on here who doesnt drink your koolaid. Grow a pair. Respectfully Yours, Holy Moly.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 12:32PM

It’s invading and eating away at your brain. Once it’s destroyed, you won’t be able to grow another one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 12:48PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 11:04PM

The best I've been able to come up with is that some people need a sense of order and, to paraphrase the late Stephen Hawking, something to believe in because they are afraid of the dark.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/religious-people-beliefs-cling-contradict-evidence-facts-moral-compass-research-athiests-analytical-a7863446.html


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10943-017-0433-x

"Better understanding the psychological factors related to certainty in one’s beliefs (i.e., dogmatism) has important consequences for both individuals and social groups. Generally, beliefs can find support from at least two different routes of information processing: social/moral considerations or analytic/empirical reasoning. Here, we investigate how these two psychological constructs relate to dogmatism in two groups of individuals who preferentially draw on the former or latter sort of information when forming beliefs about the world—religious and nonreligious individuals. Across two studies and their pooled analysis, we provide evidence that although dogmatism is negatively related to analytic reasoning in both groups of individuals, it shares a divergent relationship with measures of moral concern depending on whether one identifies as religious or not. Study 1 showed that increasing levels of dogmatism were positively related to prosocial intentions among the religious and negatively related to empathic concern among the nonreligious. Study 2 replicated and extended these results by showing that perspective taking is negatively related to dogmatism in both groups, an effect which is particularly robust among the nonreligious. Study 2 also showed that religious fundamentalism was positively related to measures of moral concern among the religious. Because the current studies used a content-neutral measure to assess dogmatic certainty in one’s beliefs, they have the potential to inform practices for most effectively communicating with and persuading religious and nonreligious individuals to change maladaptive behavior, even when the mode of discourse is unrelated to religious belief."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2018 11:06PM by anybody.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 12:33PM

That makes total sense. And I didn’t need any Holy Ghost to tell me that

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Posted by: Paranormal ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 12:12PM

I am rationale, but I have seen paranormal activity, i.e. a ghost as plain as day and other things. It is proof to me because I saw/heard w/ my own senses. Does this experience prove to that there is a God? No, but I can see why rational people do hold fast to religion. I am an atheist actually, but there is something going that we have yet to explain. Just my two cents.

Also rationale people can be brainwashed from infancy into believing all sort of stuff - but yet they can still be rationale in every other aspect of their lives.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 12:39PM

doesn’t mean it’s beyond the realm of empirical reality.

The ancient Israelites interpreted thunder coming from the realms of Mt. Sinai as the voice of God. That’s because they didn’t get thunder but thought, instead, that they were actually getting messages from God.

Remember, the Bible isn’t about the testable age of the rocks; it’s about the human-concocted “Rock of Ages.”



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 01:35PM by steve benson.

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