How can we be sure we aren't being counted as 'member' in the annual statistical report? If we are being included, is there potential for class action against ChurchCo?

How would we find out?

I'd say we have two chances, slim and none.

They have a right to their records. They own them.

@ Angela - yes they have their records and yes they own them - BUT they do not have the right to count those that have resigned in their statistical report UNLESS they list those individuals as 'resigned' or given some other designation that equates to leaving the organization. Do you understand what I am getting at from a legal and contractual perspective? Resignation is more than just saying 'I don't want to go to your church anymore'.

Any lawyers want to weigh in here?

The law doesn't wade in and audit church records.

I'm not a lawyer, but I used to brawl with them...

First issue, could you get free representation, like from the ACLU? If you could get them, or someone like them, involved, they'd probably stay the course, rather than be looking for a settlement and a promise...

Next, in my fevered mind, is why are you suing? What unjust grievance(s) do you want remedied and what gives you the standing to ask the court to use its time and resources?

Your claim is that as a former member of a religion, you want to know if they are still counting you on their rolls, and if so, you pray the court to make them stop. What personal damages can you enumerate that you are suffering if your prayer is not granted?

The church will say you are not hurt. Were I the church I'd compare it to people who are offended by TV wrestling because it is staged. The logic would be, don't watch if it bothers you...

You have an easy remedy to your problem, such that the court can excuse itself from hearing your case and think positively about not being overturned on appeal.

But being on the rolls of an organization with which you don't agree puts you in a bad light. It can be harmful to your reputation.

Since I haven't resigned, I need someone to answer this question: after sending in your resignation, do you lose the privilege of signing in to the member section of lds(dot)org?

And I'm pretty sure the temple gets word that you don't hold a TR.

Your issue is interesting! Would the Court allow your case to proceed so you could attempt to prove your assertion that being thought to be a member causes personal injury?

yes

I'm assuming that your "Yes" is to the the first question: one cannot log in using one's member number once one has resigned.

So they church has an offer of proof that resignations are effective. So the attention moves to, "is the church counting resigned members in their total count?"

At this point, the court has evidence that you, the complainant, is not considered a member. So, in effect, you are demanding proof that you are not part of the total count. The only way, literally, to prove this, is to obtain a list of every member in the final count. And there's only one place to get that list. And how easy would it be for someone to replace "Joe Tamburoco" with "Edgar Winter". Sure, you could go through the 16,000,000+ list and establish that "Edgar Winter" wasn't a real person, but how would you prove that phony name replaced YOUR name?

Like so many issues, it takes a whistleblower to furnish the evidence needed. And lawsuits aren't fertile ground for whistleblowers.

I'm not saying the church isn't fudging their numbers. I'm just saying that lawsuits need to have some facts tidily available before they get filed. You don't file a lawsuit in hopes of finding facts. Defendants then have plenty of time (and lots of experience) in hiding and denying facts.

Names on the churches rolls are not public information. How can it be harmful to your reputation if the public can't see it?

If the church publicly reports 16 million members, how would the public know you are one of them?

I'm waiting for a test case after the new GDPR data law comes into force in Europe.

Whether the Church will comply with requests to see all the info they hold on a member.

And crucially if they will destroy it on request.

@elderolddog - there is certain reciprocity between members of an organization and the organization in terms of membership, privileges, etc. Proving damages is only one of many considerations.

@Cheryl - churches are not excluded from privacy laws such as HIPPA.

I am concerned how ChurchCo is using my PII to further their interests. If they report membership as any living being that was ever baptized, these being the sole data points, then that is simply wrong because members are resigning. Think of how much PII the church has on each of us - DOB, address, genealogy, awards, positions held, etc. When I declare I am not a member of ChurchCo I would expect that ChurchCo not count me as member because by doing so it is deceptive in that ChurchCo is using nefarious numbers to promote their interests - e.g. 'look at us, we're the fastest growing church in the world'. Membership numbers are key sales points for ChurchCo.

Think of the case a divorced couple - what if the individual that took the other's surname continued to be identified by that surname for the rest of his/her life. What damages would that person suffer? Damages can come in many forms.

The mormon church owns their records and they are not under any obligation to prove the accuracy of their statistical data. Nor does the government have to step in and audit church data or statements about it.

Oh my goodness! what a terrifying thought!

I'm out and about, so I don't have full access to los interwebz, so I can't check what I'm about to assert.

I believe that in reviewing prior April conference figures, I noted that the prior year's grand total plus the new year's baptisms (including conversions), plus children of record, was a figure higher than the new total membership. Obviously one will suppose that deaths were subtracted, and I wondered if resignations were to.

I'm pretty sure that if go to a bishop, claiming to now live in his ward, he will see on your records that you are listed as resigned.

If a cursory examination of your record shows this, why would you expect a court to pursue your claim for relief?

I'm still not sure how LDS injures you by counting you as a member. Except for you being pissed by it, which by the way isn't an extraordinary emotion. I mean there are probably about 7 billion people that are pissed at some point during the day.

This is nothing more than a "I don't like what the church might be doing and I want everyone to feel like me and be outraged and fight it through the courts...come on everyone!! Lets goooooo!"

Thing is, most people don't feel the same.

I really don't give a shit. I never paid them a penny so I was a lost cause anyway and I've heard diddly squat from the cult since I resigned almost 6 years ago.

I don't see how they can count those who've resigned as current members.

However, they keep track of us so that after we're deceased we'll be posthumously baptized.

That is just wrong on so many levels.

Anyone who claims there are three heavens and that Joe Smith saw Jesus and God can make whatever claims they think will help their cause. They like to think exmos have only temporarily left the fold but that thinking eternally means we are still mormons.

It's a great relief to not care what the LDS Church does with my past membership. I've moved on.

They count dead people, I’m sure they count resigned and excommunicated “members.”

I'm sorry, this whole discussion is just silly.

First, everybody knows the 16 million member figure is fiction. So you're going to sue them because you object to the way you think they may have come up with their fictional number? Really?

To sue, you have to show you were damaged by their action. Since you don't know if they are counting you, and nobody else knows if they are counting you, exactly what damage have you suffered? Be specific. Assign a dollar value to your damage. Explain how you would not have been damaged if their membership number was lowered by 50,000.

Good grief.

The church will just wait for a hundred years or so after you resign, and do a baptism for the dead for you. You can check out any time you like. But you can never leave.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2018 08:18AM by azsteve.