She arrives tomorrow, and she's going to help me make final arrangements before I head home. I originally told her this wasn't necessary, but she made the plane reservations without talking to me about it. At first this made me angry, but I understand she's worried about our relationship. This probably leads her to do things out of fear.

I already set some ground rules, like no discussions about church. She agreed to that, but we'll see how it pans out. I got an e-mail not too long ago explaining how hurt she felt that I didn't believe we were a "family forever", but hopefully she just sent it because she didn't want to spill that during her visit.

I've been having long e-mail conversations with my parents about the reasons behind my decision to leave, but they won't acknowledge any of my points as even being understandable, even if they don't agree with them. Instead, they keep accusing me of being unfair and closed-minded. All of my reasons are carefully documented and researched, while they just counter that I'm too prideful to listen to the spirit, which leads me to being unfair.

If this keeps up, I'll likely have to shut down all church-related dialogue for awhile. I respect their faith, and have told them several times I don't expect them to agree. But there's a difference between saying, "I understand where you're coming from, even if I don't agree with you," and saying, "You're just not feeling the spirit. Why are you being so unfair? Stop doing this kind of research!"

The former is an acknowledgment of differences, while the latter is hurtful and unproductive.


Anyway, I probably won't be on RfM much over the next few weeks. My mother will be with me 24/7, and she'd be very upset if she saw me posting on this site.

It's like my parents turn into completely different people when the church gets brought up. Please wish me luck.

Oh mannnnn!

goodness why does she feel hurt that you don't believe in eternal families? That is God's business.

Hmmm...chica I feel for you!

TBMs can't even begin to understand because that is not what MORGdom is about...it not about relationship.

Just don't talk about the church!

What do these people like have a script? I keep hearing the same SHiz...why are we the ones who can't hear the Spirit?

I mean...okay I am getting mad for you!

Stop researching ha ah ah aha I thought the glory of God was intelligence. Do not the D&C tell us to seek learning and wisdom? YIKES!

Why don't you just move here!

but YOU are the close-minded one?

Too prideful to listen to the spirit? This reminds me of warnings to stay away from "anti-" literature, and avoid questioning. I wonder why the spirit, and an all-powerful gawd cannot withstand facts, and truth? Since the "spirit" is supposed to be a witness of the truth, the two things should be able to coexist. How many people have had a spiritual witness while reading about Helen Mar Kimball or court records of JS's con conviction?

http://godisimaginary.com/
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/WhyAtheism.htm

"Mysticism, Revelation and Experience

Some people claim that there are other ways of knowing, such as mysticism, revelation or direct experience. People claim that they can experience a god, with Christians sometimes thinking that what they call the Holy Spirit has come into them. Many claim that near death experiences have shown them that a god exists. How can we verify these claims? We know that mystical experiences can be caused by hallucinogenic drugs, magnetic fields, brain injuries, and well-studied mental illnesses such as schizophrenia and seizures. The “Holy Spirit” experience seems to be very similar to the well-documented experience of catharsis. Near death experiences are likely the result of brain cells misfiring when they are oxygen-deprived, can be simulated by drugs, and are obviously subjective. Fighter pilots, for instance, experience "tunnel vision" during high-G maneuvers, when their brains are deprived of oxygen. People claiming knowledge thru mysticism or revelation often don’t even agree with each other. The only way that I know to verify any mystic’s abilities is for the supposed mystic to be able to accurately, repeatedly, and verifiably know things that are supposedly impossible to know — such as events of the future. I know of no one who can, or could. Of course, we have to be very careful in any testing of such claims, because a good magician can easily fool us. Even if there were somebody who could predict the future, that does not mean that there’s a god. It would only mean that this person has peculiar skills. I submit that mysticism and revelation result from internal, altered states of consciousness — with no basis in external reality. Mysticism, revelation, and any other religious experience can only count at most for those who experience them; for all other people, they are merely hearsay. In addition, religious experience seems to be highly subjective and varies dramatically between cultures. Thus, we can’t depend on mysticism or religious revelation to give us reliable answers to any issues."

People in religions all over the world claim "spiritual" experiences, and each thinks their version is legitimate.

faboo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Instead, they keep accusing me of being unfair and closed-minded.

Whenever your mom says somthing like that, I would just tell her that you're sorry that she's disappointed, but that's how it is. She's just going to have to learn how to deal with it.

I wouldn't bother bringing up your reasons for leaving anymore. Your mom heard and understood you. She just doesn't want to acknowledge that your reasons have any validity.

That was three plus decades ago, and I am still a project. That's the bad news.

The good news is that the level of "I must bring you back to the fold" has toned down considerably over the years, though it will never disappear. Also, enough things have happened in the family over the decades, that my role as the family black sheep has been considerably diluted. A few divorces, unwed mothers, lost jobs and an arrest or two among TBM relatives, and my "Spawn of Satan" credentials are no longer very impressive, even to mom.

The other good news is you occupy the ethical and intellectual high ground here. You can be harassed, and that can be painful, but there is no way you can lose. Reality is on your side. JS made the whole damn thing up, and there is no way they can demonstrate otherwise. All they can do is call you names - 'stiff necked' and having your 'heart hardened against the truth' are two favorites.

In my case, my then spouse was still very TBM, and was in favor of The Visit, but mom overplayed her hand so badly, and was such a jerk with her "god is going to smack you one but good if you don't straighten up and fly right" attitude, that it created the first major crack in XDWs TBMitude. Within 2 years, she was done with LDS Inc.

Mormons are usually their own worst enemies. Hang tough through the s**t storm. It's annoying, but it ends.

'Anyway, I probably won't be on RfM much over the next few weeks. My mother will be with me 24/7, and she'd be very upset if she saw me posting on this site.'

So your Mother is successfully controlling what do and don't do.
The fact is that you are frightened of posting on here whilst your mother is there - that's not a criticism because Mormonism will make you subconsciously subservient.

You need to nail this, and nail it quick.
You need to 'win' this visit.

In your position I would make Mormonism 'off limits' from now on. No conversation will be entered into. No lecture will be listened to. Nothing. Don't like it, don't stay.

Sounds harsh, but that will absolutely get you the best outcome.

Stumbling Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So your Mother is successfully controlling what do
> and don't do.
> The fact is that you are frightened of posting on
> here whilst your mother is there - that's not a
> criticism because Mormonism will make you
> subconsciously subservient.

Well, I did set the limits of no church talk. I'd like to live up to my end of the deal and not do something to provoke her, especially since she's still in shock about my decision. I may sometimes poke around on here when she's sleeping, but not when she's around to see it. I figure it's better to pick my battles.


> You need to nail this, and nail it quick.
> You need to 'win' this visit.
>
> In your position I would make Mormonism 'off
> limits' from now on. No conversation will be
> entered into. No lecture will be listened to.
> Nothing. Don't like it, don't stay.
>
> Sounds harsh, but that will absolutely get you the
> best outcome.

Well, hopefully there won't be any "fight" to win as long as we both keep our deal for the duration of the visit. If she crosses the line, though, I'll do my best to put my foot down and quit engaging her if she ignores those boundaries.

I suppose I may eventually have to make Mormonism "off limits" like you suggested, but I'd like to save that as a last resort. Whether I like it or not, the church is a huge part of their lives, and I'm concerned we'll have a superficial relationship if they feel like they can't talk about their spirituality with me. Maybe that's the way things will have to go, but I'd rather not jump to that unless I have to.

My exmo family member also expressed his regret for not being able to properly say his piece back when he decided to leave, and encouraged me to make myself clear about my issues as long as they're asking about them. Once it gets to the point where everyone's beating a dead horse, though, I'll definitely stop and say it's time to move on.

Yeah...she is your madre.

You gotz to honour her.

Just smile at the many secrets you know that you can throw at her at any moment.

Idk...I am not for ruining your relationship.

Breathe...one minute at a time. Remember she is not the enemy, MORGDOM is!

Picture yourself sitting peacefully on a park bench watching the birds and the wind in the trees, enjoying the beauty of nature and reality---meanwhile your parents frantically hover nearby wearing their magic underwear, mumbling about the boogey man, and shooting you with Nerf darts.

You got this. No prob. : )

I don't know the entire background on this, but it appears you are moving back in with your parents. That said, I think it is your responsibility to meet their hospitality with the respect it deserves. You need not sit still for brow beatings or religious tirades, but you should respect their beliefs and abide by their wishes for conduct inside the home.

Just sayin'...

Ron

It's a long story, but I'm actually *not* moving back in with my parents. I'm returning to my hometown, and staying with a supportive exmo family member until I can find a job in the area.

Although it'd be nice if I felt like I could stay with my parents, I can't trust that they won't spring any surprise conditions on me regarding church attendance and "commandments" like they've done in the past. I know they mean well (and you're right -- their house means their rules), but I figure it's better to rely on them as little as possible for support so there won't be any tension or disagreement stemming from something like money or living arrangements. I'd hate to see our relationship poisoned by something like that, so I think it's for the best that I strike out on my own.

Why do you put up with such crap?

She refused to give you further financial help because of your unbelief.

So how on earth would you have this person on be your back 24/7 for several weeks?

Are you a glutton for punishment? She pushing you.


Uninvited people do not deserve special consideration, especially not in your circumstances.

Tell her to get her own damn hotel room and make it clear you will be too busy to see her much.

My TBM mom came for a visit in May. I was so stressed and I hated that because I've never been apprehensive about her visits before. I hated that my choice to leave Mormonism changed our relationship.

Before she got here, I finally was able to accept that things would be different, but that didn't mean they couldn't be good.

There were exactly two awkward moments. Then, at one point she asked some pointed questions, I answered honestly and we went about our shopping.

Relief!!

My worry was mostly for nothing.

I hope you have a similar experience and I wish you the best of luck.

Please get back to elder bednar!

Something like: "I don't believe in the church and it didn't work for me." and leave it at that. Just repeat it everytime they bring up something "faith affirming" until it finally sinks in. You can't argue with faith. ;)