You won't believe this, but I'm gonna tell you anyway.

In 1981, I started writing letters to the First Presidency, saying that Mark Hofmann was a forger/atheist. How did I know? A voice told me, one day, in an Institute of Religion hallway. Like I said, you won't believe that, but I'm gonna tell you anyway.

Now, not sure what year, but Gordon B. Hinckley was made "Counselor" in the First Presidency, when Spencer W. Kimball, Eldon Tanner, and Marion Romney all became senile. Basically, "The Hinkster" ran the Church for many years, single handedly, because the regular members of the FP were incapacitated. WHY the Church does not retire Apostles/Presidents who become senile, is beyond me. I was not a member of the Church during the David O. McKay era, but I'm told that he was completely senile for YEARS while his counselors ran the Church.

As far as I know, I'm the first one who called Hinckley "The Hinkster". MAN...that guy was a liar!! I mean, he could look you straight in the eye, and lie to you, and not even flinch. But, I hear he was a pretty decent guy. If he thought he wronged you, he tried to make amends the best he could. So, The Hinkster wasn't a "bad" guy, he was just a "Mormon" of his generation. You LIED to Gentiles. After all, they were "swine" that you did not cast your pearls to. You also lied to the Members, for "their own good" of course. You were protecting their faith thereby.

Yes, I wrote letters to the FP, saying that Mark Hofmann was forging documents. Well, my bishop called me in, he was also the Institute of Religion director, so he called me into his Institute office, and said: "I call a call from Salt Lake. They told me to tell you to STOP sending them letters. Stop calling too, or you'll be excommunicated."

Well, I was FLOORED! I told him what I told the Office of the First Presidency, and Church Security, that Hofmann was a liar and forger, and forging documents. My bishop lazily leaned back in his chair, and reaching back with his right hand, grabbed "Mormon Doctrine" by Bruce R. McConkie from his book shelf which was behind his seat. He licked his fingers, opened the book, and went to a page and quoted it to the effect of:

"The priesthood leaders of the Church are endowed with the Spirit of Discernment, lest anyone should try to deceive them, whereby the intents of the heart are made known." (from memory, not a direct quote from MORMON DOCTRINE).

He then said to me: "The Brethren CANNOT BE FOOLED! Nobody can fool them. To try to fool THEM, would be like you or me trying to fool GOD!"

He then looked up to me and said: "Do you believe that the Brethren are prophets, seers, revelators?"

I said: "Yes" (I still did at that time)

He then said: "Well then, how can anything do wrong? All is well in Zion!"

Yes, he really said that.

I was conflicted, but I was told "The Brethren CANNOT BE FOOLED...to try to fool them is like trying to fool God" probably 40 more times in the next year or so.

So, I promised that I could stop writing/calling the Office of the First Presidency. So, did I DROP it? No, I came up with a PLAN B.

My Plan B was to find an Institute teacher or director, convince THEM that Hofmann was a forger, and then have that teacher/director then contact the First Presidency. I was thus obeying the command "DO NOT CONTACT" but at the same time, trying to get the FP to accept my information.

That went over like a "Lead Zepplin".

I visited all the Institutes of Religion in the greater Los Angeles area, from Riverside in the East to Northridge in the North to Orange in the South. All of them. Spoke to most (not all) of the Directors (most of the Institutes had only one or two staff).

They ALL told me, to a man: "The Brethren are Prophets of God. THEY CAN'T BE FOOLED, to try to fool THEM, is like trying to fool God! Can't happen!"

During this time I tried to convince the Director of the UCLA Institute of Religion. I think they had 3 staff at that time. He was a nice enough guy. But he said the same thing. I remember they were having a barbacue in the back yard of the Institute (which used to be a frat house), and it was a cloudy day, and I said: "Brother _________, this is very important. Could you PLEASE write a letter to the First Presidency, warning them about Mark Hofmann!"

He replied he could not do that,and would not do that.

I looked up into the sky, and has a psychic flash (which I sometimes do) and said:

"But if you don't do that, innocent blood will be shed!"

He looked at me and stepped closer and said: "Are YOU THREATENING VIOLENCE????"

What I meant was, that innocent blood would be shed by Hofmann if he was not stopped. Yes, I SAW that, and that is what I said to him.

I said: "OH MY GOD!" and I started to cry, right then and there. I'm a male, but I cried, and I left in tears. I tried many other Institutes but I got the same response. One Director suggested that I "get professional help". LDS Security told me the same thing.

Yes, what I just wrote really happened.

Gordon B. Hinckley met with Hofmann, in public, maybe two times, but in secret over fifty times, secretly buying documents that would embarrass the Church, then putting the documents in the First Presidency Vault, and then keeping it all hush-hush. The money that The Hinkster gave Hofmann, was from a "Non-Church" banking account (i.e. unofficial account used by him and other top Church leaders for "special" things like paying off the parents of young girls who are empregnated by the sons and grandsons of Mormon leaders, etc.). So, when Hinckley said "The Church never bought any such document" he was "technically" telling the truth: since the checking account did not use tithing money (money was donated by rich Mormons...who were asked by Hinckley to donate to it) was not a "Church" account, and thus "The Church" officially did NOT buy 99% of Hofmann's documents that wound up in the First presidency vault.

Anyway, yes, The Hinkster just LIED all the time, to the Media, to police, and to the Members of the Church. Where did he learn that behavior? Well, for many years, he was the Personal Secretary of Joseph Fielding Smith. DON'T GET ME STARTED ON JOSEPH FIELDING SMITH~~ but you will understand where Hinckley got his "Church ethics" from.

Anyway, most of you are Atheists and think this way: "Since there is no God, and there are no true psychics, and all that does not exist, what you wrote here cannot be true."

Actually, it is true. But, as the saying goes: "A man convinced against his will...is of the same opinion still." So, you won't be convinced of anything you don't WANT to believe. So, don't believe it.

If you are under fifty, you probably are NOT familiar with the Mark Hofmann saga. I would encourage you to read the book THE MORMON MURDERS by Neifeh and Smith. That book is on the shelf of almost every public library in the United States: in the "True Crime" section. You can also order a paperback form Amazon.com online. It is a GREAT book! Sarcastic humor. Makes a few minor mistakes of fact, but, it 97% on the money.

The son of one of Mark Hofmann's victims, after he served a mission, read THE MORMON MURDERS. After that, he left the Church, and said: "I'll NEVER shake Gordon B. Hinckley's hand again!"

Get the book. The Mark Hofmann documentary is now in the works, and is perhaps 10% to 20% done. It is called "FORGER" and you can learn more about it at www dot forgerfilm dot com, so check it out.

In 1990, CBS was planning a 9 hour miniseries based upon THE MORMON MURDERS. The Hinkster found out about it, called up the President of CBS at that time, and convinced him to "can" the miniseries; which was a travesty.

Soon, maybe in another year or so, FORGER will be out, maybe on Netflix, maybe on the History channel, or Sundance, or "maybe" even on HBO! Many thousands of Mormons will resign after seeing it. However, 95% of True Believing Mormons will never watch it, passing judgment upon it without review.

And, yes, by the way, the Amazing Randy, who offered one million dollars to any psychic who could PROVE to him, that psychic ability was real, has PAID OUT that one million dollars.

James E. Talmage

Oh, that we all had such power of discernment. That is a gift of the Spirit, to which we are entitled and we will have it as we live for it. With that gift we shall be free, to a great extent, from the deception that otherwise might lead us astray.

As the Lord gives revelations, so does Satan, each in his way. As the Lord has revelators upon the earth, so has Satan, and he is operating upon those men by his power, and they are receiving revelations, manifestations, that are just as truly of the devil as was his manifestation to Moses, to which I have referred.

We need the power of discernment. We need the inspiration of the Lord, that we may know the spirits with whom we have to deal, and recognize those who are speaking and acting under the influence of heaven, and those who are the emissaries of hell. (Conference Report, April 1931, p.28)

Delbert L. Stapley

Possessing, as we do, the endowment of the Holy Ghost, if worthy, we are entitled to the gift of discernment to guide and help us avoid the pitfalls of scheming and designing men to trap and ensnare us into the meshes of worldly lusts, influences, and pleasures. (Conference Report, October 1961, p.21)

The Holy Ghost is a revelator of truth and has the related power of discernment, which interprets the mind and motives of men; therefore it has the function of preventing confusion and deception to the possessor of this gift. (D&C 50:23-24.) [Conference Report, October 1966, p.112]

Stephen L. Richards

First, I mention the gift of discernment, embodying the power to discriminate, which has been spoken of in our hearing before particularly as between right and wrong. I believe that this gift when highly developed arises largely out of an acute sensitivity to impressions -- spiritual impressions, if you will -- to read under the surface as it were, to detect hidden evil, and more importantly to find the good that may be concealed. The highest type of discernment is that which perceives in others and uncovers for them their better natures, the good inherent within them. It's the gift every missionary needs when he takes the gospel to the people of the world. He must make an appraisal of every personality whom he meets. He must be able to discern the hidden spark that may be lighted for truth. The gift of discernment will save him from mistakes and embarrassment, and it will never fail to inspire confidence in the one who is rightly appraised.

The gift of discernment is essential to the leadership of the Church. I never ordain a bishop or set apart a president of a stake without invoking upon him this divine blessing, that he may read the lives and hearts of his people and call forth the best within them. The gift and power of discernment in this world of contention between the forces of good and the power of evil is essential equipment for every son and daughter of God. There could be no such mass dissensions as endanger the security of the world, if its populations possessed this great gift in larger degree. People are generally so gullible one is sometimes led to wonder whether the great Lincoln was right, after all, in the conclusion of his memorable statement, "You can't fool all the people all the time." One does feel at times, however, a sense of pity and sympathy for some of the peoples of the world whose education, information, and exposure to higher ideals and exalted concepts have been so arbitrarily and ruthlessly restricted.

There is a class of people now grown sizable in the world who should possess this great gift in large degree. They know how the gift is attained. They have been educated in its spiritual foundations. They have been blessed with the counsels which foster it. They know how to order their lives to procure it. You know who they are, my brethren and sisters. Every member in the restored Church of Christ could have this gift if he willed to do so.He could not be deceived with the sophistries of the world. He could not be led astray by pseudo-prophets and subversive cults. Even the inexperienced would recognize false teachings, in a measure at least. With this gift they would be able to detect something of the disloyal, rebellious, and sinister influences which not infrequently prompt those who seemingly take pride in the destruction of youthful faith and loyalties. Discerning parents will do well to guard their children against such influences and such personalities and teachings before irreparable damage is done. The true gift of discernment is often premonitory. A sense of danger should be heeded to be of value. We give thanks for a set of providential circumstances which avert an accident. We ought to be grateful every day of our lives for this sense which keeps alive a conscience which constantly alerts us to the dangers inherent in wrongdoers and sin. (Conference Report, April 1950, pp. 162-163)

George Q. Cannon

One of the gifts of the Gospel which the Lord has promised to those who enter into covenant with Him is the gift of discerning of spirits--a gift which is not much thought of by many and probably seldom prayed for; yet it is a gift that is of exceeding value and one that should be enjoyed by every Latter-day Saint…. No Latter-day Saint should be without this gift, because there is such a variety of spirits in the world which seek to deceive and lead astray. In a revelation to the Church upon the spirits which have gone abroad in the earth the Lord says:

"Behold, verily I say unto you, that there are many spirits which are false spirits, which have gone forth in the earth, deceiving the world."[D&C 50:2]

The Lord warns the Saints and says: "Beware lest ye are deceived."[D&C 46:8] And that they may not be deceived, He commands them to seek earnestly the best gifts.

The Apostle John says:

"Behold, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." [John 4:1]

This counsel of the beloved Apostle applies as much to us in these latter days as it did to the Saints of his age. All manner of spirits have gone forth to deceive, to lead astray and to obtain possession of the children of men; and many people yield to them because they are invisible and cannot, perhaps, think that they can be possessed by invisible influences. Anger, backbiting, slander, falsehood and various passions are manifested by people under the influence of false and deceptive spirits….

Now, the gift of discerning of spirits not only gives men and women who have it the power to discern the spirit with which others may be possessed or influenced, but it gives them the power to discern the spirit which influences themselves. They are able to detect a false spirit and also to know when the Spirit of God reigns within them. In private life this gift is of great importance to the Latter-day Saints. Possessing and exercising this gift they will not allow any evil influence to enter into their hearts or to prompt them in their thoughts, their words or their acts. They will repel it; and if perchance such a spirit should get possession of them, as soon as they witness its effects they will expel it or, in other words, refuse to be led or prompted by it.

The gift of discerning of spirits, also, is one that is of great importance to the Elders who are laboring in the ministry. We have known Elders become so filled with zeal and so desirous to do good, or what they supposed to be good, that they exposed themselves to the influence of the adversary. They would be filled with a species of what has been called "wildfire," and, carried away by zeal, they would go too far; they would say and do imprudent things and yet, being prompted by the purest and best motives, would feel entirely justified in their course. In the history of the Church there have been many illustrations of this. Elders can work themselves up beyond that which is proper and wise and be led to say and do many imprudent things and overstep the line of propriety. Now, the gift of discerning of spirits is necessary to keep these kind of feelings in check.

The gift of discerning spirits is not only necessary for this purpose, but it is necessary in the branches of the Church. Newly baptized members, anxious to obtain the gifts, are liable sometimes to be taken advantage of by the adversary and to imbibe or yield to a wrong spirit. A newly organized branch of the Church, where the gifts are manifested, especially the gift of tongues, has to be watched with great care. The Elders laboring in the branch or presiding in the conference must be in a position to discern between the Spirit of the Lord and other spirits that may seek to steal in….

In all the situations in life, therefore, in which Latter-day Saints can be placed there is great need for them to possess the gift of discerning of spirits. Fathers and mothers need it for their own benefit. They need it in their families, in the training of their children. All Saints need it to enable them to escape from the many evil influences that are abroad. The Elders need it for their own sakes; they need it also in the government of the branches, of the conferences, of the wards, of the stakes and, indeed, the entire Church. It is a great and blessed gift, and it should be sought for by all. (Gospel Truth, 1:198-200)


There are now many things existing, and which our people are brought into contact with, that are calculated to deceive. Especially is this the case in the early lives of both sexes, who are apt to be deceived by appearances--by judging men by their outward appearance, expressions and sometimes by their dress and demeanor. There is a gift in the Church of God which if obtained enables us to escape deception, and detect all kinds of spirits and evil. It is the gift of discernment of spirits. The Lord has promised unto us this gift, so that we shall be able through that gift to discern the spirits of men and women who may be brought in contact with us, so as not to be deceived by them. Some persons have this gift. It is natural to them while others seem to be utterly destitute of it, and therefore easily deceived, because they have no discernment. Now we can ask God for this gift and have it bestowed upon us. If we seek for it in faith it will be given us. (Collected Discourses, 2:249, July 5th, 1891)

David O. McKay

From birth to death men differ. They vary as much as do flowers in a garden. In intellect, in temperament, in energy, and in training some rise to one level and some to another.

The successful teacher is one who, with a spirit of discernment, can detect to a degree at least, the mentality and capability of the members of his class. He should be able to read the facial expressions and be responsive to the mental and spiritual attitudes of those whom he is teaching. The great Teacher had this power of discernment in perfection as is well illustrated in his conversation with the woman of Samaria whose interests he not only interpreted, but whose soul he also read by virtue of her past deeds. Too few teachers have this gift, even to a limited degree, but every teacher has the responsibility of determining how best to approach the members of the class in order to make appeals that will be lasting. -- RSM, 21:722 (1934).

It is written that "he who governs well leads the blind, but he that teaches gives them eyes." -- CR, April 1914, p. 86. (Gospel Ideals, p.439)

Joseph Fielding Smith

To understand spiritual things, a man must have spiritual discernment, that is, guidance by the Holy Ghost. For this reason we are confirmed and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Lord expects us to use our faculties and has given us reason as a measuring rod to measure truth under certain conditions.Primarily in the search after gospel truth, there must be the teaching of the Spirit -- Spirit speaking to spirit -- and this comes only through obedience to gospel law.

The man who will not "do his will" may search forever, but in vain; but cannot find it! It is not to be found in psychology, in biology, or sociology, no matter what other truth may be found therein. When we hearken to the Spirit who guides into all truth, we will see that the truth revealed is reasonable and consistent with all other truth.

Only by the aid of the Holy Ghost, and through obedience to the principles of the gospel, will a man eventually attain to the knowledge of all truth. In other words, those who will not make their lives conform in every particular to the Divine Life; who will not adjust their lives through faith and repentance and obedience to all divine law, will never be in a position to comprehend truth in its fulness. Therefore, only in the celestial kingdom will the fulness of the truth be attained.

All who will not place their lives "at-one" with the Father and the Son cannot comprehend the things of God. They are foolishness unto them. For this reason so many of the learned men in the world fail to comprehend the gospel and teach theories and philosophies at variance with revealed truth which they cannot understand. We are in that day when the people are "ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:298)

Bruce R. McConkie

In its most important aspect, discernment is used to distinguish between good and evil (Moro. 7:12-18), between the righteous and the wicked (D. & C. 101:95; Mal. 3:18; 3 Ne. 24:18), between the false or evil spirits and those spirits who truly manifest the things of God. (D. & C. 46:23; 1 Cor. 12:10.) In its fullest manifestation the gift of the discerning of spirits is poured out upon presiding officials in God's kingdom; they have it given to them to discern all gifts and all spirits, lest any come among the saints and practice deception. (D. & C. 46:27.)

There is no perfect operation of the power of discernment without revelation. Thereby even "the thoughts and intents of the heart" are made known. (D. & C. 33:1; Heb. 4:12.) Where the Saints are concerned -- since they have received the right to the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost -- the Lord expects them to discern, not only between the righteous and the wicked, but between false and true philosophies, educational theories, sciences, political concepts, and social schemes. Unfortunately, in many instances, even good men hearken to "the tradition of their fathers" (D. & C. 93:39) and rely on the learning of the world rather than the revelations of the Lord, so that they do not enjoy the full play of the spirit of discernment. (Mormon Doctrine, p.197)

James E. Faust

Satan has had great success with this gullible generation. As a consequence, literally hosts of people have been victimized by him and his angels. There is, however, an ample shield against the power of Lucifer and his hosts. This protection lies in the spirit of discernment through the gift of the Holy Ghost. This gift comes undeviatingly by personal revelation to those who strive to obey the commandments of the Lord and to follow the counsel of the living prophets.

This personal revelation will surely come to all whose eyes are single to the glory of God, for it is promised that their bodies will be "filled with light, and there shall be no darkness" in them. 27 Satan's efforts can be thwarted by all who come unto Christ by obedience to the covenants and ordinances of the gospel. The humble followers of the divine Master need not be deceived by the devil. Satan does not sustain and uplift and bless. He leaves those he has grasped in shame and misery. The spirit of God is a sustaining and uplifting influence. ("Serving the Lord and Resisting the Devil," Ensign, Sept. 1995, p. 6-7)

Ezra Taft Benson

The Book of Mormon was written for our day. Mormon, who compiled it, saw us in vision and was directed to put into the book those things God felt we would especially need in our time. We therefore should know the Book of Mormon better than any other book. Not only should we know what history and faith-promoting stories it contains, but we should understand its teachings. If we really do our homework and approach the Book of Mormon doctrinally, we can expose the errors and find the truths to combat many of the current false theories and philosophies of men.

I have noted within the Church a difference in discernment, insight, conviction, and spirit between those who know and love the Book of Mormon and those who do not. That book is a great sifter. ("Jesus Christ--Gifts and Expectations," Ensign, Dec. 1988, 4)

I stopped reading after a bit... I loved your personal story, and I believe it, but the quotations from the prophets... No thanks.

Also, regarding the Amazing Randi paying out the million dollar prize... I don't remember the year, but I remember the date, April 1 ...

Okay, Google says it was 4/01/2008...

"As an April Fool's prank on April 1, 2008, at the MIT Media Lab, Randi pretended to award the prize to magician Seth Raphael after participating in a test of Raphael's 'psychic abilities'.

...

"Since the challenge was first created by Randi in 1964, about a thousand people have applied, but no one has been successful. Randi has said that few unsuccessful applicants ever seriously consider that their failure to perform might be due to the nonexistence of the power they believe they possess."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge


I love that last line!

Now obviously you were correct regarding Hofmann, and you had the knowledge that allowed you to reach your conclusion but I reject that it came from some outside source.

Thanks for writing. I have a similar story. My ex had a flight scheduled on a DC-10. The night before the flight, she had a vivid dream of an aircraft disintegrating in flight. The tail number matched her flight. Well, she didn’t get on that flight. Instead, she tried to warn the airline. Naturally, that didn’t go anywhere. So did anything bad happen? Oh, just an engine falling off and all those people dying just like she saw. It’s in the archives. But the NTSB learned a lot from that one, making today’s air travel even safer for millions of flights going forward.

So premonitions, I gotta believe. That’s just one of many, living with a mind like that. 20 years of paranormal city.

Atheism is almost a rite of passage for Exmos. Some stay there, some move on. The fundamental problem with atheism is that confirmation bias goes both ways. At least agnosticism is in agreement with the literature with regards to the limits of human psychology.

You are blessed with a beautiful gift from God. I hope your bitterness towards the church doesn’t stop you from applying it in your life to help those around you. Most of the world saw through GBH when NBC aired the 60 minutes interview. You’ll never beat the job Mike Wallace did. I saw that broadcast, in all its analog glory. And thought he wasn’t Mormony enough!

CBS! Arrgh, Mike would have my head.

My non-believer view of your ex's story is that probably 5% of the flyers on every plane have a dream or strong feeling that their flight won't make it. So that's maybe 1,000 people a day.

When nothing happens, they never say a word, unless it's to laugh about it. But of course, when one of those 1,000 planes goes down, that one person believe him/herself to have been touched by an angel, and talks up a storm!

We only brag about the premonitions that came true, which are a tiny percentage of our total 'premonitions' and dreams.

I once dreamed, vividly, of a sexual union with a female of my distant aquaintance. It never came to pass... But had it, I would have bragged about my fore-knowledge of the event.

That's how I fiddle with facts to remain a placid atheist...

I think the USA is on a real roll. No planes have gone down for about two years. But how many dreams and strong premonitions do you think people have had during this very nice safety-first period?

Miracles happen to those who believe in them. As crappy as Mormonism is, it does produce belief. I’m afraid systems that produce believe are failing us in the modern world. The filthy parasite of Mormonism should be killed, but the substructure upon which it feasts got humanity through its darkest hours. We can live in the world without faith, but should we? Faith, hope and charity were valuable commodities in frontier times, when survival was do or die. Why not now? Mormonism was whiskey with a warm gun. Who needs a liver if something else will kill you first? But times have changed.

Golfers, of which I am one, at least in spirit if not ability, are at the pinnacle of the faith and faithfulness crowd. Were we to allow mere facts to dictate what we thought of the game, the golf courses could be converted into marijuana farms.

Well there’s that. The greens are better than a chapel any Sunday.

I find this line of reasoning unsettling. Let me see if I understand the implications of your atheistic logic.

Imagine, for instance, 32 bright-eyed, fresh-out-of-business-school young women who go to Wall Street and start managing people's savings. In the first year half of the managers outperform the market and half of them do not. The latter are fired and end up flipping burgers at McDonalds.

The 16 successful money managers, meanwhile, continue to work in their chosen profession. After the second year, 8 have outperformed the market again and 8 have failed. The failures are booted from their cubicles and end up running Abercrombie & Fitch franchises. The winners, however, have succeeded two years in a row and receive big bonuses.

After the third year, 4 of the 8 still in the business have done worse than the stockmarket averages and found it advisable to leave Wall Street and become personal financial advisers at Charles Schwab. The four remaining stars, by contrast, have opened up their own mutual funds so they can keep more of the management fees. They drive nice cars.

In the fifth year, the four remaining managers face the same culling process: 2 of the women receive negative reviews and leave their corner offices to take up positions as portfolio managers at pension funds. The two remaining money managers, however, have now outperformed the market for five consecutive years. They grace the covers of Forbes and Business Week, sit for interviews with Bloomberg, and have to fend off all sorts of male admirers.

After year six, however, one of the two women has broken her winning streak with a bad quarter and had no choice but to take a job in the Trump cabinet. The winner, however, has now established a perfect record and is widely considered a financial mastermind. Her confidence is overwhelming and everyone wants to invest in her fund.

But if I get your drift, elderolddog, then there is nothing to distinguish the financial genius from the girl asking if I would like fries or apple slices with my Happy Meal. The Treasury Secretary and the clothing retailer are similar except for the number of zeroes in the price of their shoes. Is that what you are saying, EOD? That in much of life, fate is a function of random chance?

I once had a 12-year-old boy in my class who said something about "curves." I reported him to the principle, who made him stay after school. . .

Perhaps I misunderstood what he was saying.

Wait! You saw logic in my story? I don't need no stinkin' logic! There was no logic! It was simple reporting, no logic required!!

Some probably large percentage of humanity believes it can see into the future. The vast majority of them acknowledge they do not have control over this ability, unlike the seers & revelators who make, or try to make, a living at divining the future for fun and profit.

This vast majority of casual believers never keep track of how their failures match up to their successes. But they seldom forget their successes. They refuse to consider the possibility that they just got lucky one to seven times over the course of their lives.

I can't prove anything, it's my belief...

The story you constructed does not seem logical to me.

Suppose none of the 32 newly minted money-minders outperformed the market... End of story?

Your 50/50 logic could be said to be flawed, on the basis being artificially convenient.

I simply, and unhumbly state that I believe that human beings often consider themselves to be doted with 'uncommon' abilities and such people HATE to admit that this might not be the case.

Take your poor befuddled mormon male who believes he's fated to wed the rich mormon's daughter, and believes he's received confirmation from ghawd that this is her fate. But she, and her fiancé, never got that message, and so ghawd's supposed message to the befuddled mormon bears no fruit. Wonder if he ever admits that he was nuts to believe the supposed revelation?

I sincerely believe that during any hour of the day, around the globe, there are thousands of travelers strapped into their seats, rocketing down the runway, to take off, who believe that their talent is telling them, "this plane ain't gonna make it!" And when their plane successfully lands without incident, they promptly forget that they had a false premonition.

But let the airline lose their luggage, and they'll mention at the next few opportunities, that they knew it was going to happen.

Everybody wants to be special, and some way more than others.

Forgive me if I am missing your irony, which I have done before. But it could be that your observations have broader significance than you intended.

What I mean is that statistical analysis of money managers indicates that the number of outperformers is precisely what one would expect from a random distribution. For example, I just googled "money managers random chance" and found the following article, which is a popularized treatment of a well established fact.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/your-money/how-many-mutual-funds-routinely-rout-the-market-zero.html

That is why one should always invest in index funds. Money managers do not beat the market over time, and they charge you a hefty fee for their underperformance. It is better to give up any pretense of finding skilled managers and just buy an index with the lower associated fee.

This is, as you note, the same as with prophecy if you test it by running several iterations of a binary game: the outcome is indistinguishable from random chance although some small number of prophets will have a string of successes and be absolutely convinced of their superior spirituality. Again we come back to your notion of the Bell Curve as a robust tool for describing the vagaries of human existence.

Well, Bézier curves are kind of naughty.

Would that flight happen to be American Airlines flight 191 out of Chicago O'Hare?

I personally know someone whose husband died on that flight. Left behind a wife and three kids. He was on his way to LA. He worked for a major oil company.

AA was not servicing the engines right. It fell off as the plane was taking off. Flipped right over the wing.

Thank gawd the DC 10 is not in service anymore. So many accidents with that plane (cargo doors blowing off, etc.)

If it ain't Boeing, I'm not going.

Now the L 10-11, that was a beauty...

Burning airplane pieces scattered through buildings and trailers.

Made a strong impression.

Hedning Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Burning airplane pieces scattered through
> buildings and trailers.
>
> Made a strong impression.

Holy crap. How scary! Crazy! and the picture of the plane on flying on its side. Very frightening!

And it took forever for someone to make a memorial. The widow was pretty upset it took so long.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/10/12/memorial-to-american-flight-191-victims-to-be-dedicated-saturday/

That's a lot to read right now haha i'm sure it's all good.

Angel of Jesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And, yes, by the way, the Amazing Randy, who
> offered one million dollars to any psychic who
> could PROVE to him, that psychic ability was real,
> has PAID OUT that one million dollars.

It's "Randi." Not "Randy."

The challenge money was never paid.
The challenge was terminated in 2015.

By the way.

I don't know... the whole original post sounds like a Dunnerism to me.

Yep, old Paul H. would be proud.
If he weren't dead and gone. :)

Maybe OP is the reincarnation of PHD! :)

Am I the only one here who thinks the original poster was at the very least a charlatan and most probably a troll?

I am not trying to be unkind, but people here seem to be more kind than I would have expected from the regulars at this forum. Perhaps I am being too mean about the level of niceness I expect.

He reminds me a little bit of the Lebanese prophet dude who posts here every so often.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2018 07:55PM by midwestanon.

My MIL once drove all the way to Portland for an LDS educational week or some such. When she arrived, the event had been cancelled because the main speaker had just been arrested for murder involving a bombing. That had to be Hoffman.

Okay, my first reaction to this was just to write, "Dude ..." and leave it at that. But then I thought, "Now there, you're not going to get away with that attitude, because you have your own story to tell."

So I've been around here for years and I've never told this story. I will now. It may be long, so if you don't want to read it all, you can skip to my conclusions near the end of the post.

My family had been going through a long period of trials, which were so concentrated that they had begun to hurt my faith. I reached a point where I saw no purpose to my life. In the middle of all of this, I got a job working for the Church. The job was difficult and staff morale was low.

My place of refuge was the chapel. When things became overwhelming, I would go into the chapel, sit in the dark and pray. One day, I’d said a prayer, stating that I just saw no purpose to my life. I felt myself falling into a state of depression and despair. I simply cried, “I need help!”

A few days after that prayer, a commercial came on TV which caught my attention. It was an ad for a movie. For some reason, that commercial struck me like thunder and I had to have that movie. I bought it on my lunch hour the next day.

During the course of the next weekend, I watched the movie about seven times. I laughed until my sides ached. It was like a healing balm to my soul. I instantly became a fan of the star of the movie and went out to buy more of his films.

This man cheered me up immensely. I quickly became a prominent member of a fan site for him and it didn’t take me long to become a part of the management team of the website

One day, after I’d finished watching another of his movies, I went out for a walk, and prayed as I walked along. I said that I wished I could thank him in person for bringing me out of my depression.

As I walked along and prayed, thoughts began to come into my head which seemed to come from outside of myself. As I continued to pray each day in the chapel, more thoughts would come into my head and I would just sit and listen to whatever thoughts came into my mind. I heard that I would get to meet him and that I would get to thank him in person. I heard that it wouldn’t be in a crowd, but that I would get to sit and talk to him in person.

I heard that I would simply be in the right place, at the right time, and that it would be one of those rare moments in life when an opportunity would just drop into my lap. All I had to do was say, “Yes,” to the opportunity. I wouldn’t have to worry about money. It would all be taken care of, which made no sense as I was working at the time.

For a few months, these same words came to my mind every time that I prayed, and they would never vary. I truly thought I’d gone off the deep end.

Life went on, and nothing happened, which made me think, “Well, there you have it I guess. God is either not there, or He is, but He doesn’t interfere with our lives much. What He does do, I’ve no idea, but He doesn’t do much of anything.” I stopped going to church, and even got my first tattoo.

Anger and bitterness crept into my life. I’d known pain and sorrow, rejection, loss and many other challenges in life. But where was the balance? What of the joyous things which are supposed to happen to people? What about me? “Woe is me, poor, poor me. When is it my turn for some happiness?” I was one angry lady.

One day, the actor came to my city for a movie premiere and I went to see it. Those familiar thoughts came into my head, plus the words, “Okay, I’ve let you see him. You know he’s real. But the time is not yet. It will come soon.”

About a year after that, the management of the website I was involved with said that we’d been invited to meet this actor. I thought it was a joke, but it turned out to be real.

All of the words from my prayers a few years before came flooding back to me. How could this be possible? My sister kept saying things which came straight out of my prayers, which had me covered in goose bumps, such as, “Do you realize that this just fell right into your lap? You didn’t even have to do anything. You were simply in the right place, at the right time.” I cannot tell you what a surreal feeling I had going on that trip.

But I did meet him. I got to spend an entire day with him, talk to him and most importantly, thank him. He’s a lovely human being and I’ll never forget his generosity, as he’d paid for our trip with his own money and I was again unemployed at that time. He sought no publicity, which is why I don’t mention his name. He simply wanted to thank us.

For a long time, that cemented my faith again. To me, the odds of this happening were akin to winning the lottery. Therefore, it had to be a real spiritual experience.

But one thing made me think about it later. They were the words, “…in the right place, at the right time.” Being a part of that fan site, I was in the right place, at the right time. What about the many people who were probably out there feeling certain that they would someday meet him? I did talk to people who felt as certain as I was about meeting him. I even had 14-year-girls telling me that psychics told them that they would one day marry this man. I just happened to be one of those who actually did experience what they hoped for and maybe even dared to expect.

Just as I’m sure that, given the unbelievable luck that Mark Hoffman seemed to have with his rare finds, there was more than one person who was suspicious of him.

It was an interesting experience. For me, it certainly is one small piece of evidence amongst other seemingly small miracles which I store in my evidence drawer. But it’s not enough for me to decide that what happened to me is supernatural. As long as it is possible for it to have been a coincidence, and it certainly is possible, it can’t be counted by me as solid evidence of a god. Interesting, definitely, but not absolute proof.

I remain a skeptic. A hopeful skeptic, maybe, but mostly a doubtful one. I seek evidence wherever it can be found, but I’ve never found anything strong enough to remove the current atheist label from me. Well, I prefer to call myself a hopeful, but doubtful, skeptic.

Unless you're Royalty, ... Can't get the time of day from any GA or GA wanna-be.

Ask me. I KNOW.

DH, seasoned old policeman, would have know Hofmann was dirty.

Years ago, a 14 y/o girl was murdered in our city. Went unsolved for months. We passed a man walking down the street. He and DH made eye contact. DH said, “He killed that girl!”

By the time we got the car turned around to follow him, the guy disappeared.

Within hours, the guy turned himself in.

Over 40 years, I’ve seen DH make that kind of observation many times.

I don’t consider this to be anything mystical – some people are just extremely perceptive. And the easy part about psychopaths (if there is one) is that they don’t understand that others have intuition.

So you are claiming Hofmann is an Atheist ? Tell us more about that.