Johnny Canuck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am at a loss why one has to confess sins of an
> kind thru a priest or anyone for that matter, but
> that is why I am not Catholic.

I had a bet with myself that someone would come up with this kind of response!

This attitude is like projecting our ignorance on to the world, watching the shadow puppets that our ignorance forms and then saying: "Look at those shadow puppets! That's what the world is all about!"

No, it is merely a display of one's own ignorance of what the real world is. We are not looking at the real world, just the distorted shadow puppets that our ignorance forms on the real world.

You can't have total awareness of every culture, custom, norm, tradition, what have you. So you frame it in a way that's familiar. I think the true ignorance is not trying to understand the unfamiliar, not just being unaware of things.

Ignorance is easily transformed into awareness if you put forth the effort. Saying "I don't understand this and I refuse to even try" is much different than just a general lack of knowledge.

I have been ignorant of things; it's a human condition. Not proud of it, but there it is. I'm trying to improve, though. It's all we can do.

Hey, WCG, no need to be scared!!

I found the situation not only typical but quite tiresome. Because I KNEW that someone was going to make that protest about confessing to a priest, I took the time to explain how the Sacrament was established, and the way the priest interacts with the pentinent to bring him or her back to God.

And I did this lengthy, well-thought-out explanation three hours before Johnny Canuck popped his anti-Catholic cork.

*shrug*

~VOW

voweaver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I found the situation not only typical but quite
> tiresome. Because I KNEW that someone was going
> to make that protest about confessing to a priest,
> I took the time to explain how the Sacrament was
> established, and the way the priest interacts with
> the pentinent to bring him or her back to God.
>
> And I did this lengthy, well-thought-out
> explanation three hours before Johnny Canuck
> popped his anti-Catholic cork.
>
> *shrug*
>
> ~VOW

+1. The poster was civil about it, but hijacking a thread to complain about someone's customs just isn't necessary. If you must gripe, start a new thread. Just a thought.

voweaver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I found the situation not only typical but quite
> tiresome. Because I KNEW that someone was going
> to make that protest about confessing to a priest,
> I took the time to explain how the Sacrament was
> established, and the way the priest interacts with
> the pentinent to bring him or her back to God.
>
> And I did this lengthy, well-thought-out
> explanation three hours before Johnny Canuck
> popped his anti-Catholic cork.
>
> *shrug*
>
> ~VOW

It was when I read your post, then saw Johnny's post that I thought: "He thinks his ignorance trumps everything!"

Is god in his omnipotence so busy being omnipotent and s**t that he has to employ bishops and priests to keep track of everyone's transgressions?

No matter how a given religion does it, its still guilt tripping. The idea is to play god's middle-man so you can scare the crap out of folks and collect payments in this life on promises sold in the next.

I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to catholic practices and such, but I can recognize a scam a mile away.

Religion: Testing the Tensile Strength of Gullibility Since the Dawn of Man.

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2011 11:21AM by Timothy.

Timothy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is god in his omnipotence so busy being omnipotent
> and s**t that he has to employ bishops and priests
> to keep track of everyone's transgressions?
>
> No matter how a given religion does it, its still
> guilt tripping. The idea is to play god's
> middle-man so you can scare the crap out of folks
> and collect payments in this life on promises sold
> in the next.
>
> I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer when it
> comes to catholic practices and such, but I can
> recognize a scam a mile away.
>
> Religion: Testing the Tensile Strength of
> Gullibility Since the Dawn of Man.
>
> Timothy

I would think it would be like being up before the Regimental Sergeant Major on a charge, rather than seeing the General. The General sips on his cold beer (hey. He's a General, he has to have SOME perks, right?!) checks the reports from the RSM and signs them off. In fact, he checks on the work of several RSMs at the same time.

... the person charged had been made aware of the rules and regs BEFORE he or she volunteered his or her services.

According to religious legend, god created us and tossed us into the world without so much as giving a s**t about whether or not we want to be here, much less that there are rules to abide by.

I'm not bound by any rules or regs because I never signed a contract or made a commitment. To place someone in an ambiguous (at best) situation without that someone’s consent is bad enough. But to then say, "Here are the rules. Follow them to the letter or spend eternity in hell" after the fact and via a second-hand source is downright despicable.

Religion makes no sense. Catholicism and mormonism make even less.

Next!

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 05:07PM by Timothy.

matt Wrote:

> I had a bet with myself that someone would come up
> with this kind of response!

just because a question is obvious, doesn't make it any less relevant

and the phrase "I knew you'd ask that" has been a precursor to obfuscation since people have been asking questions

> This attitude is like projecting our ignorance on
> to the world, watching the shadow puppets that our
> ignorance forms and then saying: "Look at those
> shadow puppets! That's what the world is all
> about!"

That sounds deep man, like really deep. Of course it doesnt answer anything, it is just a disguised ad hominem..... it's just saying "you're too dumb to understand this sky fairy stuff.... only us sky fairy advocates can see the real deep meaning of stuff"


> No, it is merely a display of one's own ignorance
> of what the real world is. We are not looking at
> the real world, just the distorted shadow puppets
> that our ignorance forms on the real world.

We have a very different view of what constitutes "real world"

EssexExMo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> matt Wrote:
>
> > I had a bet with myself that someone would come
> up
> > with this kind of response!
>
> just because a question is obvious, doesn't make
> it any less relevant
>
> and the phrase "I knew you'd ask that" has been a
> precursor to obfuscation since people have been
> asking questions
>
> > This attitude is like projecting our ignorance
> on
> > to the world, watching the shadow puppets that
> our
> > ignorance forms and then saying: "Look at those
> > shadow puppets! That's what the world is all
> > about!"
>
> That sounds deep man, like really deep. Of course
> it doesnt answer anything, it is just a disguised
> ad hominem..... it's just saying "you're too dumb
> to understand this sky fairy stuff.... only us sky
> fairy advocates can see the real deep meaning of
> stuff"
>
>
> > No, it is merely a display of one's own
> ignorance
> > of what the real world is. We are not looking
> at
> > the real world, just the distorted shadow
> puppets
> > that our ignorance forms on the real world.
>
> We have a very different view of what constitutes
> "real world"


The problem is when a poster breaks into a conversation between like minded people to criticize or change the subject. Canuck was polite about it but many posters are not. It is hijacking and hijacking is not considered proper nettiquette. I didn't find this one comment all that offensive, but others have been. My opinion is that a poster who wants to criticize something he should start his own thread and not butt in on someone else's. I too was wondering when someone was going to make some anti Catholic comments and was surprised it wasn't more people or that the comments were not worse.I have seen people jump into a conversation between Christians on how to find a new church and start in on how stupid religion is. IMO, that is rude. Thank goodness we see less of it now than in the past.

EssexExMo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> matt Wrote:
>
> > I had a bet with myself that someone would come
> up
> > with this kind of response!
>
> just because a question is obvious, doesn't make
> it any less relevant
>
> and the phrase "I knew you'd ask that" has been a
> precursor to obfuscation since people have been
> asking questions
>
> > This attitude is like projecting our ignorance
> on
> > to the world, watching the shadow puppets that
> our
> > ignorance forms and then saying: "Look at those
> > shadow puppets! That's what the world is all
> > about!"
>
> That sounds deep man, like really deep. Of course
> it doesnt answer anything, it is just a disguised
> ad hominem..... it's just saying "you're too dumb
> to understand this sky fairy stuff.... only us sky
> fairy advocates can see the real deep meaning of
> stuff"
>
>
> > No, it is merely a display of one's own
> ignorance
> > of what the real world is. We are not looking
> at
> > the real world, just the distorted shadow
> puppets
> > that our ignorance forms on the real world.
>
> We have a very different view of what constitutes
> "real world"

Ad hom attack? Was it buggery bollocks!

It was merely an attempt to point out that it is intellectually dishonest and lazy to just shrug and say: "Ah, the Hell with you! Why should I even bother to attempt to accept other people's cultures?"

>We have a very different view of what constitutes
> "real world"

We do, indeed.

For those who are wondering, here it is:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,211797,211797#msg-211797

OP Sandie poses a very legit question:

"What is involved in a Catholic's "first confession? ... Why does this sound as ghastly as a TR interview with a bishop or a youth interview? <shudder>"

At face value, it does sound as ghastly as a TR interview. There are more than a few reasons for that.

I was particularly disturbed by these comments by poster Voweaver:

"... a competent priest will be able to see through the fudging, the BS, and the justification, and let you know that you aren't kidding anyone but yourself. According to the beliefs of the Catholic Church, the priest is serving as God's ear in hearing your confession. He receives this authority from the Apostolic succession, from when Jesus breathed on the disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit: what you hold bound on earth will be bound in Heaven, and what you loose on earth will be loosened in Heaven."

Sounds like more fairy tale gibberish to me, but then:

"After the confession, the "counseling session," if the priest is convinced of the sincerity of your remorse and of the promise to avoid the sin in the future, he uses his authority to absolve you of sin."

What authority? ... A catholic priest has no "authority" to act as god's earpiece (as if an omnipotent being needs an earpiece) or absolve anyone of sin. In fact, catholic confession ritual does seem as ghastly as a TR interview because it is, particularly when, as some posters in the thread mention, folks have to make stuff up just to get through it. Talk about B.S! … Sheesh!

Seems catholics are even more sensitive than mormons when their little fantasies are scrutinized. Got some bad news for you, folks. The catholic cult is no more credible than the mormon cult. Proving mormonism false - an easy thing to do - does nothing to bolster the credibility of catholicism or any faith.

So how were Johnny Canuck's comments out of line? They weren't. What we have here are a bunch of oversensitive religionists who've yet to grasp the concept that catholicism is a really bad joke and mormonism is its punch-line.

Kind of tacky to post ill-will towards one cult yet scream bloody murder when your cult gets hammered, don’t you think?

Or don’t you?

Timothy



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2011 02:33PM by Timothy.

post.... nothing wrong with it in my opinion....the only poster i had a problem with was Don Tommissino's.... he was an ass as far as i am concerned!
I also dont agree with voweaver assessment of the prescience of the Catholic priest. never heard any priest questioning a confessors sins! dont mean it didnt happen but it certainly was not the norm in my opinion!!
and while i have never been to a "worthiness interview"... in confession you say what YOU want to say... you are not asked many questions at all...i remember that they ask...if you dont already tell them... how long since your last confession! thats about it! course my last confession was int the 70's so i never heard the term Reconciliation!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2011 04:47PM by bignevermo.

... just kidding!

I simply have a hard time with any religion that promotes stupid s**t like this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/13/us/13exorcism.html

"Hokay, clergy, if a guy in a bunny suit is zooming down the street on a skateboard, he's likely off his meds. BUT if a gal is spinning her her head round 360o while hurling green pea soup, she's probably possessed!"

Which, of course, raises the obvious question, "If I don't pay my exorcist, do I get repossessed?"

Gimme a break!

Demonic possession and exorcisms. Tell me the catholic cult ain't as whackadoodle as moism!

Timothy

P.S. GO MAVS!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2011 05:14PM by Timothy.

The purpose is not necessarily to revive the practice, the organizers say, but to help Catholic clergy members learn how to distinguish who really needs an exorcism from who really needs a psychiatrist, or perhaps some pastoral care
as far as i am concerend....all the people that need an exorcism need to seek serious Psychiatric help!!
and Tim.... you do NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR A PRIESTS "SERVICES"
unless of course you are kinky that way!! :)
nah but really.... i could use whatever services they have and never pay a dime for them! there is no "settlement" tithing or otherwise!
WHTE HOT HEAT!!
THE THREE KINGS HALL PREVAIL!! :)
oh is there some hockey being played somewhere??? hehehe

And a great one at that!

C'mon, man!

My point is that any religion that thinks it can train its clergy to distinguish the difference between a mental condition and a demonic possession is nucking futs!

Timothy

gonna be another close one 2nite!!!
THREE KINGS!! :)

I didn't see Canuck's post as all that bad either He might have worded it a bit differntly or started his own thread, but it seemed an honest question.I think some posters may have over reacted because of past experiences with atheists jumping in their threads and because of some of the anti Catholic remarks that are common in this forum and this thread

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didn't see Canuck's post as all that bad either
> He might have worded it a bit differntly or
> started his own thread, but it seemed an honest
> question.I think some posters may have over
> reacted because of past experiences with atheists
> jumping in their threads and because of some of
> the anti Catholic remarks that are common in this
> forum and this thread

bona dea, I have seen many honest questions on this board. I do not think that was one of them.

I have seen a lot of snarky sneers from atheists AND Christians that set my teeth on edge, to be quite frank.

matt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bona dea Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I didn't see Canuck's post as all that bad
> either
> > He might have worded it a bit differntly or
> > started his own thread, but it seemed an honest
> > question.I think some posters may have over
> > reacted because of past experiences with
> atheists
> > jumping in their threads and because of some of
> > the anti Catholic remarks that are common in
> this
> > forum and this thread
>
> bona dea, I have seen many honest questions on
> this board. I do not think that was one of them.
>
> I have seen a lot of snarky sneers from atheists
> AND Christians that set my teeth on edge, to be
> quite frank.

I absolutely agree with you about snarky sneers, but I am willing to give Canute the benefit of the doubt on this one. It was pretty tame compare to others even ones on this thread.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> matt Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > bona dea Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I didn't see Canuck's post as all that bad
> > either
> > > He might have worded it a bit differntly or
> > > started his own thread, but it seemed an
> honest
> > > question.I think some posters may have over
> > > reacted because of past experiences with
> > atheists
> > > jumping in their threads and because of some
> of
> > > the anti Catholic remarks that are common in
> > this
> > > forum and this thread
> >
> > bona dea, I have seen many honest questions on
> > this board. I do not think that was one of
> them.
> >
> > I have seen a lot of snarky sneers from
> atheists
> > AND Christians that set my teeth on edge, to be
> > quite frank.
>
> I absolutely agree with you about snarky sneers,
> but I am willing to give Canute the benefit of the
> doubt on this one. It was pretty tame compare to
> others even ones on this thread.

Good point, Bona Dea. But there have been occasions when an apparently 'innocent' questions has been like blood in the water and has called sharks from miles around to come and rip a thread and its inhabitants to pieces. Either we were lucky or admin pulled a lot we didn't see.

I was okay with Johnny Canuck's response. It was a bit of a downer in the thread, but not offensive.

I think that it's interesting to compare Roman Catholic confessions to Mormon confessions to the bishop. IMO Catholic confession comes off well in comparison. It is done anonymously (or semi-anonymously,) with quick forgiveness of sins and reconciliation, and no public shaming. Also, kids are not asked directly by the priest about things like masturbation -- if you know what it is, and want to confess it, fine, and if you don't know what it is, the priest is not about to tell you. As a Catholic child and adolescent, I never once heard the word or the concept discussed in even a roundabout way.

Plus, Catholics tend to use their own judgement about lesser items anyway. It would never occur to me to confess masturbation or use of artificial birth control, because I don't consider either one of those sins.