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Posted by: Eric K ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 11:21AM

One person in particular, who many here have helped over many months with sincere and well written posts, decided to turn against us because we have not met his incessant needs. Another, who was a newbie, was full of criticism and clearly not here to receive information nor to help others. Then there are the garden variety drive-by trolls who we delete on a frequent basis. Our admins do an admirable job.

No one is paid here. It is all volunteer work. I believe those people (in this case trolls) who have never volunteered at any charity or worthwhile organization without pay, have no understanding the hours required to keep this and other organizations running. We do not do things perfectly. We make mistakes. We evolve as we learn. We also have our own personal lives.

Please use the report button if you see a post that clearly does not belong here. We are not on 24/7, but we pretty well cover the full day every day with our volunteer admins.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2018 11:22AM by Eric K.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 11:30AM

You are very kind, patient and giving. Everyone except the most unreasonable trolls very much appreciate your dedication.

Everyone has a right to a private life including admin.

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Posted by: sbg ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 11:34AM

Thanks Eric, you are far more patient with this than I would be.

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Posted by: Jersey Girl ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 11:39AM

Thanks so much, Eric. This is a great sight with wonderful posters of all kinds, except for trolls. Keep keeping an eye on them.

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Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 11:50AM

I very much appreciate what you, and the other admins, do. This is a nicer (and more constructive) site without the troublemakers.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 11:53AM

When the cat’s away, the mice will play.

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Posted by: darkprincess ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 12:12PM

Thank you Erik and other volunteers for all that you do. I haven't been on recently but I always love that I can come here When I need to :)

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 12:36PM

First of all, Eric and Admin, thank you.



For me, the first poster (I suspect that the second one was his roommate) was an exceptional study on how, after all your efforts, a service-sucking individual may sh!t upon you anyway--and, may even plot to sue you.

I've put together many "Victim Awareness" classes in my old work, and that poster was a treasure trove of red flags.

He'll be back.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 12:38PM

Excellent analysis, Kathleen, and I agree with your prognosis.

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Posted by: Aquarius123 ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 12:42PM

kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First of all, Eric and Admin, thank you.
>
>
>
> For me, the first poster (I suspect that the
> second one was his roommate) was an exceptional
> study on how, after all your efforts, a
> service-sucking individual may sh!t upon you
> anyway--and, may even plot to sue you.
>
> I've put together many "Victim Awareness" classes
> in my old work, and that poster was a treasure
> trove of red flags.
>
> He'll be back.


They like to come back (irl and online) just to mess with you. I hope when he shows up again, we can recognize it, even if he uses another name, and totally ignore him and report. Thanks, kathleen. Wish I could have attended you classes!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2018 12:43PM by Aquarius123.

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Posted by: StillAnon ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 12:50PM

Amen Sister! Amen!

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Posted by: Aquarius123 ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 01:01PM

StillAnon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amen Sister! Amen!


Good ol' ((((((stillanon))))

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 01:17PM

kathleen Wrote:


Oh? A "Victim Awareness" class! Wonderful.
How about a list and comments. Good exercise in using critical thinking skills.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 02:52PM

I would benefit from some description of what Victim Awareness means and is as well. If you are able, Kathleen. . .

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 04:22PM

>>For me, the first poster (I suspect that the second one was his roommate)…

Good catch. That didn't occur to me.

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Posted by: Aquarius123 ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 12:37PM

Thanks Eric and all admins for your time and compassion. I really don't know how you do it! This forum helps me so much, and I know others find solace and useful information here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2018 12:38PM by Aquarius123.

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 12:37PM

Thanks to you and all those who volunteer to help you.
This site really does help so many, and is so supportive of those who are seeking help, insight, whatever they need, as they transition out, etc.

Trolls will never be able to undo the good you have done

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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 12:38PM

he reminds me of an old adage which goes something like this:

feed a pig at your door and he'll come back and shit on it.

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Posted by: Aquarius123 ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 12:45PM

saucie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> he reminds me of an old adage which goes something
> like this:
>
> feed a pig at your door and he'll come back and
> shit on it.


Lololol saucie you keeping it real!

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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 01:59PM

Aquarius123 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> saucie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > he reminds me of an old adage which goes
> something
> > like this:
> >
> > feed a pig at your door and he'll come back
> and
> > shit on it.
>
>
> Lololol saucie you keeping it real!

Thanks Luv. Its a crude but true saying.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 12:46PM

Thank-you Eric. You and the mods are VERY appreciated! I'm amazed at those who seem most damaged by abuse, are sometimes so willing, themselves, be so abusive.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2018 01:07PM by Devoted Exmo.

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 01:07PM

Merci beaucoup, merci beaucoup, Eric and to everyone who makes this site happen. Your kindness helped me find a voice and helped verify that I was not imagining a lot of the Mormon Cult problems glaring at me.

Sure would be nice if the jerks and vile people that are in this world did not exist, wouldn't it? Often when I see or read about such people (here I am especially referencing ole Sleazy Joe and Vile Bully TrumP), I cannot believe what I am witnessing or reading. It is like really rotten fiction.

Thanks again from the bottom of my heart.

Presley

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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 01:23PM

Hi Eric, hopefully my post here will add some value to this discussion on trolls.

First of all, thanks to you and to the volunteers here who keep this board going. It doesn't look like an easy job. This board has been a big, helpful resource for me, more-so early-on, but still now too. One aspect of healing from mormonism is a person's ability to think for themselves, as opposed to going with whatever direction the group is going in, right or wrong, because the group-think feels right when you're a part of a cult and some people don't even know when they're doing it, even after leaving the cult. It is at these critical points that at least one person should speak-up (picture a few people at general conference being the only ones with hands-up as 'opposed' during sustaining of church leaders).

When the board admins opened up to allow discussions about politics here, I don't they understood fully what they were taking-on. Most of us here have political opinions and it can be offensive to see anyone here, drumming-up group-think support for ideas which are off-topic and which at the same time are offensive to our own world-view. The problem compounds when people who are known to be board administrators take part in those activities which violate the board rules. Often the topic has nothing to do with mormonism. Sometimes, a very weak link to mormonism is made as an excuse for the off-topic discussion. I have seen Administrators and past Administrators take part in these threads. What happens in a household when the parents only enforce the rules sometimes, or worse yet, encourage the kids to break rules sometimes and then show disapproval later when the kids take it too far. In it's worst form, the Admins delete the political posts that offend their own personal world-view, while allowing those posts to stay that support their own personal world-view. At times, the personal attacks against the discentor are also left in-tact while their own defending posts are deleted. In such a situation, even the most sincere person can decide to troll. The church's worst enemies don't come from outside the church, they come from within. Please remember this at times when the above actions seem justified by Admins who spot clear violations of board rules, hours or days or weeks after the troll finally decides they've seen enough, or that they speak their opinions only to be judged as [put whatever label you want here], and therefore their opinions are wrong and should be deleted.

As long as politics are allowed, free and relatively unmoderated political discussions need to be allowed. As long as the Admins have opinions that they themselves post, then they should subject themselves to equal standards that the rest of us have to go by, especially if they want to be respected for more than their ability to delete the posts of others. For example, there is a major difference between hate-speech, and what some people here call hate-speech. Even the United States congress called Mark Zucherman on pulling that crap of labeling certain posts as hate-speech, and therewith justified those posts being unfairly deleted. I vote that we go back to a rule of non-politics here, mostly because even the Admins here don't know how to moderate those discussions properly, and that the resulting animosity detracts from the mission of this board's most important goals.

My biggest question now is whether or not there will be discussion here about what I have said here, or whether this post will simply disappear.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2018 01:33PM by azsteve.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 01:35PM


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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 01:47PM

You're right Cheryl. It's a little difficult to open up to a group of strangers here when you know that you've just been labeled a racist or a communist or whatever the label is, and you know in your heart that the label isn't true, and that none the less, the moderators don't seem to have a problem with it.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 02:02PM

As if those smart enough to leave mormonism don't have the sense to work out their own political opinions.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 02:00PM

I'm in agreement, Cheryl. Politics is ever so polarizing and I think such polarizations damage this platform.

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Posted by: Eric K ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 02:05PM

It may be time to change back to no politics. This era seems to bring out the worst of folks. I will discuss this with the other admins. We will be criticized for changing, but if there are some solid arguments to keep political discussions, we will consider them. No change at the moment. Was just at a brunch with a double mimosa. I am also tired after a late gig last night.

Thanks for the nice comments.

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Posted by: StillAnon ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 02:12PM

Hey Eric. See my post below. If I had your responsibilities for this board, I'd need something a lot stronger than mimosas. Thanks for all you do.

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Posted by: StillAnon ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 02:03PM

The problem is that there is no line-in Utah. Politics and mormonism are one in the same. Although Utah's population is roughly 60% LDS, 91% of our legislature belongs to the church. Including the Governor, all Congressional reps and both Senators. Both the House Speaker, The Senate Prez and our AG. Utah is a theocracy. Those people don't get elected or appointed without approval of the church. Then you have Romney, whom ran for President, now running for Senate. Most Americans wouldn't believe how a church can run a state, unless you've lived here. In Utah, the political system doesn't work, the church system works.

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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 02:48PM

If there can't be a complete ban on politics here, maybe we could at least limit it to politics directly involving the church acting in its official capacity, or to individuals who currently hold leadership positions in the church, any of which are acting against the better interests of society or who's actions could have a significant affect on society. I don't think anyone here is going to take the church's side on those types of posts.

So, if the church gets caught bribing the Utah state legislature or if a church leader gets caught stealing money or molesting a child, we could talk about it here. If Romney runs for office amidst no scandals involving the church, a post about that would be an off-topic post. How does that work as a possible board rule? Another common-sense rule would allow the disagreement with political policies and about why, while prohibiting any attack of any kind on non-mormon individuals including other board posters.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 03:12PM

Trying to come up with suggestions for admin instead of complaints....

Another option is to put a warning in the title that the thread is for red or blue views only if it should involve any political content. Then you or I would not even have to open the threads we know would trigger political argument and complaints to admin.

There are no doubt exmormons on both sides. If there was a Red thread, I would be happy to not open the thread or not post in it. I would know to look for Blue ones if it involved politics.

The problem is that many of us don't stay out of "ONLY" threads. I would love to discuss concerns with people who not only have similar political views, but also have a shared Mormon history. We could expect that any blue comments in a red thread would be reported and deleted, no questions asked. Sigh, even this would be too much of a burden for admin.

These are very interesting times politically that impact every part of our lives. I've been appreciative of Eric's allowance to overlap with politics. I suspect it will have to end because it creates a lot of work for them when people complain about everyone who doesn't agree with them.

Thanks, Eric for whatever decisions are made.

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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 04:55PM

I disagree with you politically, but I agree with your post. I think people coming from your side often see posts deleted. Now, I actually find it interesting to see a post get deleted. It reveals something about how other people think and see the world. And I find that fascinating. But, in all fairness I think a person’s opinions should be allowed For the most part.

I also would not want to see political posts banned. It’s going to get a lot more interesting before it gets boring. Again, I really like to see how people react. When people are offended or outraged, It tells you something. When people don’t respond to a post, that’s an answer in itself.

For example, I thought it was fascinating to see the defense it was put up for Joy Reid recently. Though I consider myself more liberal than practically anybody I’ve met, it was mind blowing to see people who are so fact-based (not mentioning any specific cartoonists)completely disregard the facts. It enlightened me.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 05:23PM

I observe the back-and-forth on the political scene too. Re posts that are acceptable vs unacceptable, which I often analyze, (1) the author of a thread is asked to relate the topic directly to Mormonism and (2) we're asked not to be partisan in our comments (a difficult challenge, I know).

The trick it seems is not to get too riled up with hot button issues (especially those only indirectly related to moism, or not even related if you can't resist mentioning them) and take things personally. When it leads to bad feelings and especially open quarrels that is the exact situation Eric has said he wants to avoid.

I agree with comments others have made in past threads that you can get to feel differently about posters if you read their political opinions that you strongly disagree with.

However, as SO MUCH about Mormonism touches on politics and also as many facets of life and thought are connected to the experiences, teachings and functioning of the Mormon Church or religion in general, discussion of them can go so far towards helping people puzzle their way out and/or answer a lot of their questions about their experiences and difficulties. General info about cults and programming and authoritarianism and group think and many other aspects of human life is so helpful for people in seeing a bigger picture, choosing different directions, gaining insight into themselves, the world and human nature, etc - all very helpful in recovery and moving ahead.

So, it's a tough balance. The more we can cooperate by being thoughtful, as well as following posting guidelines, the less work for Eric and Co and the more pleasant and helpful RfM can be. I know - I don't ask for much. :)

But if our bottom line could be that we will avoid PARTISAN politics that may be the big red line that can be obvious to most. Talk about what we observe and what we think and relate it to our experiences with religion and what got us to a better place and what has helped us, etc, and we can stay more on track.

I don't want to see a ban on politics, as it can be instructive, especially where it intersects with Mormonism, but less specific red/blue divides would likely help us to find centre with it.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 05:37PM

Another wonderful, thoughtful post, Nightingale.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 02:02PM

Thank you, Eric. Thank you, moderators.

You are very generous people and do a great service to the community, both the established people here and those who are exploring.

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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 02:15PM

Let me just add my thanks to you and the crew Eric. You do a

selfless service for all of us here. Having been here for over

12 years I've seen the trolls come and go. They get tired of not

succeeding and ultimately move on which means you are doing

a great job of keeping the creeps away.

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Posted by: deja vue ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 02:33PM

So glad to see the trolls removed. Thank you so much. Their stay went way too long in my opinion. Amazing patient's from the moderators. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 02:48PM

Thank you for all you do Eric. A few folks have gotten tedious here and then slide into troll-dom. Cudos to you and your volunteers for weeding them out.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 02:50PM

If you're taking a poll, I vote for no politics.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 02:56PM

While of course a troll-free board is most desirable and nobody likes feeling they've been played, on the up side many other people are undoubtedly helped by reading comments by so many RfMers who unstintingly and unfailingly reach out regularly to help others. I really enjoy reading all the contributions. Too, the wide array of subjects keeps things interesting - music, books, philosophy, science, the world, outer space and the universe. What's not to like?

It beats an SM any day - so dull, uninspiring, unimaginative, rote, repetitious and relentlessly same-ish, week after week after week and on into eternity. In fact, that was the first glimmer I had that I really truly was not enjoying my Mormon interlude, that there would be no improvement and that I had to get away - I could not visualize a worse existence than to be in the CK forever. Like the longest, hottest, dullest, cry-ee-ist SM ever known followed by the very most longest temple trip without end. {{{shiver}}} Especially as a single woman. Yikes. (What do they do with singles in Mormon Heaven?) And it's all just so very white - white clouds, white gowns, white suits, white shoes. EEK to the absolute max, forever and ever. Nightmare.

ETA: How could I forget white bloomers?

*Now* it's...

Amen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2018 03:33PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 03:15PM

A spot on, and wonderful, analysis, Nightingale!!


:D :D :D

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 03:34PM


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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 04:01PM

Oh so true. The sameness and the colorlessness left me wanting. That's no way to live...

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 02:57PM

Knowing what I know about "denial and beliefs," I'm of the opinion that a lot of "trolls" don't realize they're trolling...

But that's just my POV; growing up on Planet Utah I had to realize I could be every bit as arrogant--and stubborn--as members of the "one true church."

Thankfully, I learned to listen to "voices of reason" (and some have even said I've "grown" one my own, at least on my good days :-).

I'm very happy to have made a lot of genuine friends and support-types here; as I said years ago when I first arrived, you people are the ones I wish I'd grown up with...

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 03:35PM

Yeah, all too many people wish they grew up differently.

Too bad many have to spend the rest of their lives dealing with the initial imprints (duckling style).

Mandatory parenting classes prior to conception anybody?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 03:48PM

I wish that were possible.

You need training and a license to drive a car but not to have and rear children. The priorities seem crazy.

But of course asking the state or society to decide on reproductive issues opens Pandora's box.

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 03:22PM

You guys have handled it all rather well in my humble opinion.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 04:03PM

I agree. If I don't like someone's opinion, I skip it.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 04:14PM

Thank you, Eric, for your time and patience.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 04:21PM

Thanks Eric, and thanks, mods. I have to admit that the latest round of insults and general bad behavior on the part of trolls has been too much.

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Posted by: siobhan ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 04:55PM

I must have missed something! The needy person I believe you are referring to was tolerated a lot better by other members than I was willing to invest but I thought I was seeing a glimmer of hope there. My take on Presbyterian predestination is that there are some people who are just hell bent on screwing up their life no matter what you do to help them. My question about this is that some people are permanently damaged beyond help by Mormonism. I now believe that the mormon who beat me half to death is one of them. I hate that but I did everything I could for someone I once considered a friend and if a person doesn't want to do the work of growing they can't be forced.
As for politics there is some meme going around saying we should be taught to have a respectful discussion instead of avoid it. That societal rule was there for a reason so I'm in favor of zero politics.
As for off topic posts this is a convenient place to ask a large number of opinions you trust about anything from car repair to plumbing especially for us loners but I would hate for these non mormon questions to cost too much money for the site.
THANK YOU for all you do! I consider RfM to be my 2nd church... with no offense intended for my atheist friends.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 05:13PM

I'm not so sure that that person was a troll, as much as he was ill.

I don't think the other person was his roommate, I think he was a troll.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 05:29PM

jacob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not so sure that that person was a troll, as
> much as he was ill.

There is always that, jacob. Too, we're asked to avoid labelling people trolls. The only ones who could possibly know for sure would be Admin (or anybody who knows said person IRL, potentially). Unfortunately, whatever the truth about any situation like this, posters and responders alike have to realize and accept that we are limited in the help we can provide. For therapy, which some definitely do need and could benefit from, people need to find IRL resources. As much as we want to help others, we're not equipped nor tasked to provide that type of service here. We do care about others, as you can see every day on this site, but we're not therapists.

> I don't think the other person was his roommate, I think he was a troll.

Agree. (Although I just said it's not our call). Sorry. Couldn't resist.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 05:38PM

I tend to agree with Jacob but we will never know for sure. A lot of us, me included, fell for Stormy after all.The first one seemed to me to be a real person who needed more help than he could get her. He also seemed to.have a limited education and limited social skills. I felt sorry for him and hope he is ok, but I was tired of his antics. The second one-who knows?

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Posted by: StillAnon ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 05:56PM

The guy is a basket case, but real. I think he's been a misfit his entire life and blames it on mormonism. Everyone that tried to help was shot down. Most here ignored him, I got in his face to try to make him accountable. He's a real guy. He posted his actual phone number here. Not smart, but real.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 06:03PM

He also posted youtube videos of himself recovering from one of his many surgeries here.

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Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 05:36PM

jacob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not so sure that that person was a troll, as
> much as he was ill.
>
If we’re talking about the same person (and I assume we are), I think your assessment is spot on. Ill, and extremely needy. I think the breakup could be mutually beneficial. I know the board is better off without him, and hopefully he can find a more constructive way to seek what he needs.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 06:07PM

Yes, such a strong need to be needy that he has to reject anything that would take that away. Perhaps that goes back to conception, with a needy mother having a baby for security reasons. When I conceived my kid (okay, embryo), it was with the intention that this is my gift to the world. I think it will make all the difference.

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 05:22PM

I would like to go back to no politics as well.

my .02

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 05:31PM

I think the first one was a person with a lot of problems and needs more help than he can get here. The second one was so over the top that he had to he a troll.An apologist forum????? Really!!! Both were getting on my nerves.
As for politics, I like the policy of allowing it in limited doses if tied to religion..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2018 05:32PM by bona dea.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 05:37PM

I would put money on #2 being a repeat troller. I think he has been here many times under different names. They look for a current problem to promote just to stir the pot.

Politics is pretty impossible to mod, I am glad I didn't have to work under the new rule :)

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Posted by: StillAnon ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 06:05PM

"Politics is pretty impossible to mod, I am glad I didn't have to work under the new rule :)"

I miss you. You were very fair. You're right- politics are impossible to mod,especially from people in Utah. There is no separation of church and state.

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Posted by: PHIL ( )
Date: July 08, 2018 06:07PM

I guess the definition of Troll has changed over the years. It used to mean TBMs trolling the site to try and get people here to return to the fold. I guess it is something more hatefull now.
Im still thankful to Erik for letting me post here for all these years even though he knows im TBM.

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