over regular posters who are hurting. Sometimes readers assume a poster is simply hate fulled or mistaken with no evidence and then they jump in to say that THEIR family doesn't do whatever is causing trouble and pain to the poster.
I suggest that posters are not lambasting someone they don't know when they come to RfM for comfort. I think we're here to give them hope and help, not more pain when they are already hurting.
It takes courage to open up on RfM and I don't think it's kind to kick someone who is already down. That's my opinion and I appreciate others on the board who don't lash out in support of the mormon church and culture in opposition to someone who is being harassed or hurt by it.
So easy to see the ugliness of the Mormon Church for what it is once we leave. But then it gets complicated when we apply that to Mormons we know and even love in our everyday lives. We want to give them a break.
"Deep down they are a really nice person?" Maybe. Should deep down count? I'm not sure.
I struggle mightily maintaining a relationship with my own TBM family. They are nice people. However, they are nice people who support and give allegiance to leaders who are bigoted, misogynistic, asking young kids sexual questions behind closed doors, causing gay kids to kill themselves, pressuring the poor for their money, and . . . well, "The Beat Goes On" as Sunny and Cher sang.
So are they nice people? Should they get the exceptions because they are fooled? Should Patty Hearst have gone to jail when she had been brainhwashed?
Hard to answer when it's your own family. Leaves me torn, but I have to admit if you are only good "deep down" as you raise your hand to the square in support, yea even admiration, of those leaders, well . . . you won't get a "get out of jail free card" from me. I gave up the blinders when I quit the Mormons. I don't think being indoctrinated/brainwashed is quite enough to make all forgivable but I'm not sure.
Hurting others should be everyone's wakeup call. Should burst the bubble. If you are truly good deep down, it will.
I totally support the Mormon Church in telling the truth on everything. I would not dare not support them being truthful/honest because then people might start to think that they could not possible be a true Church, i.e. a Church that is super honest/transparent beyond all other Churches in world history. I know there are some so-called apologists who really don't support the Church and do the Church incredible damage by not being super honest/transparent about everything. For example, on the Book of Mormon they fail to stand strong in saying that the best way to defend it is to have all the descendants of Father Lehi, with those Hebrew DNA markers flowing through their veins, to fervently bear testimony as they unfold their genealogy work all the way back to Father Lehi. Those Lamanites sure need their temple work done just like everyone else.
Now I do confess that I have a very severe credibility problem around here and its pathetically non-faith-promoting how procrastinating I've been on getting this done. I'm supposed to be providing a link to some Church-sponsored website to where the various most frequently asked questions about Church doctrines, history, finances, statistics, and everything can be officially and unambiguously answered so people can be more convinced that the Church is true, i.e. honest and transparent. Now where is that link so I can overcome this terrible shame?
Finally, some must wonder what I truly believe about all the things involving the Church. To those who dare ask I say "stop being so perverted and prying". Nobody is entitled to try to pry into my heart/mind like that. Well of course its all ok/dandy, thanks to how the Correlation program has taught me to think about everything, for the loving Bishop (or other Church leaders and people doing ministering through claims that they are being guided by the Spirit) to pry into everything. But for everyone else its like being a very rude pervert so don't do it, unless the Holy Ghost tells you to do so and then its alright because the Correlation program has programmed me to let go of my boundaries and submit to the sacred pryings and holy disrespect that people learn to habitually show towards each other in the Church.
They go to their ward in hopes of getting comfort. Instead, the leadership and members tell them to buck up and take on another calling that they hate and don't feel up to coping with and besides they have been inactive for months. When they report this on the board, posters tell them to buck up. They say it isn't anyone's job to offer comfort. I see this as kicking someone who is down and supporting the mormon church over individual needs. I think it's uncalled for and not in keeping with the goals of recovery to blame the victim this way.
Some want black and white. Your situation with your missionary daughter is not that. It is tough wading through all the gray. Your love for your daughter is apparent and your wishing her the best even while she attempts to spread the Mormon gospel is admirable. You can't choose who you love or what they do. Gray.
Someone who tries to find the goodness in something doesn’t mean They support that thing.
Granted, there is very little if any that can be found in the church that is good, but for those of us who have loved ones who still believe, I suspect they have to walk a line between their love for them and their distaste for their faith.
I have no doubt in my mind that my dad is a good person. In addition to devoting is life to the church, he is also a doctor. His support of racist bigots like the apostles does Not negate the good things that he does in his life nor the good person that he is.
I’m sure many here have similar examples.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2018 11:49AM by midwestanon.
Cheryl Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Wouldn't it be kinder to start a new thread on the > goodness of TBMs and church culture and not > openly blame the grieving poster for feeling > depressed and and abandoned?
Probably. But since you haven't let us know which post(s) you're talking about, it's hard to tell. Care to give a hint?
Because of what I said: many of us have to coexist and live with Mormons due to work/family/etc obligations.
I can spend my time scrutinizing and finding fault with the church- and I do- but the individuals I love who believe, I won’t- at least I try not to- hate their choices or malign their faith to their face.
The point is most of us don’t ‘support’ the church when we choose to continue loving our family. At least I don’t. And I can’t pretend that who they are, the good things they are, weren’t wrought through an ubringing in Mormonism at least in part.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2018 09:49PM by midwestanon.
If I start writing some opposite opinion, I often then just abort, because I realize the person who has started the thred, doesn't need my POW in his/her grievous situation. If I want to post the text anyway, I can start my own thread.
I'll leave that to her to tell us if she wants to.
As I read this, there is one person that, although she has hurt me so many times, that I'll always love with all my heart and if I had to pick her or the board, I'll pick her.
BUT it doesn't mean that just because she believes, that I see her acts as kind all the time. If she does something unkind because of her beliefs, I'm not going to say, "That's okay." I've called her out on her behavior before and it hasn't gone well, but I do it anyway. She and her brother are EVERYTHING to me, so I just keep trying, but I see her do many things in the name of mormonism that BLOW MY MIND.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2018 01:41PM by cl2.
First off, everyone has a right to their belief systems and what they find fits in their personal World View.
It's all about perspective. We are free to take any view we find works for us and change our mind if we want.
What one sees as support, might be seen as something entirely differently by someone else.
I've had to learn to see "both sides" in some of my work, and also in classes learning how to debate, respectfully. I also had to be able to write reports in objective language.
I have chosen to support Personal Rights. I do not have to believe their personal choices or accept them for myself, but I do respect their Right to have them.
Everyone deals with the world on their level of understanding, which, very often, changes over their years.
The difficulty in communication and understanding is heightened when there are strong emotional attachments to the ideas, notions, beliefs, etc. That is particularly evident with religion and politics.
Also, not everyone has developed the level of empathy and compassion someone else is expecting.
Not everyone is well aware of their audience when sharing on a forum, either.
We are a bunch of humans, doing what humans do.
I have coined a little phrase that has helped me understand myself and others. The greatest unhappiness comes from emotional attachments to unfulfilled expectations.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2018 06:20PM by SusieQ#1.
I try to speak better of the people than the institution. There are many mormons I like and even love. But Mormonism not so much. I can respect Mormons on a case by case basis. Even case by case, Mormonism not so much.
That is my distinction in how I try to speak to this issue.
I appreciate Cheryl wanting to support hurting people here, as she has done for as long as I've been around. It takes energy to reach out to others and selflessness to recognize another's need, especially when challenging stuff exists in one's own life too.
It may not occur to some readers to differentiate between discussion posts and the I need support ones. Sure, people need to accept that to a certain degree they get what they get when they put themselves out there but I see that as being more appropriate for a discussion thread than a support one.
Too, it pays to realize and remember that many here are adjusting themselves to a new life after Mormonism and/or religion altogether. Many of us are negotiating our way out of situations that challenged us at the time and may be ongoing. Especially, here, to an even greater degree for those with family members still in Mormonism and/or who live in the belly of the beast. For me, with no LDS family and being far, far away from the spires at Temple Square, Mormonism recedes with little effort on my part and few reminders. In fact, if I didn't keep clicking on RfM it would be down the memory plug hole long since, likely. Others have lifelong family, business and living associations with it so obviously that keeps it in the forefront for them.
So, there are folks here going through crisis, hardship, shock, questioning, trauma, illness and multiple mega losses. There are many who are through that (or never experienced the deeper challenges during or post moism) but stay around to help support newbies and others. There are some who love discussions, history, doctrine and analysis more than this is my life or help me topics. A big fat messy mix, in fact.
I try to recognize the "support" threads vs the "discussion" threads and react accordingly. Someone in crisis, for instance, isn't going to be helped by, nor can they process, a treatise on the evils of Mormonism or a slap in the face diatribe about what they should do, how they should feel and how stupid it is to worry about it or be hurt or upset or waffley with decision-making. It's not that helpful, for instance, to state abruptly that someone should just leave their spouse and kick up their heels and be happy forever. Emotions, obviously, are in play. And feelings. And promises and commitments and family matters. And our individual experiences, needs and personalities.
As Eric, Board Founder and Owner, repeatedly says: This board is not for formal apologetics (in fact, professional apologists need not apply) nor for supportive statements about the Mormon Church by anyone. That's the mandate. He never said it was about being "fair" to FAIR et al.
It's not is a question of being fair or balanced, as if this is a debate class and we have to be sure to give both sides of the question.
Mentioning religious beliefs in general here is allowed IF we phrase it in terms of what we personally believe and/or if we recount our own experiences. An example that comes to mind is that recently I have been talking more about my time as a JW. I have made some statements about the people (not the organization) that I loved and said that in the early stages I enjoyed being a JW. That is OK ground to cover. I *cannot* get away with writing warm and supportive comments about the JW organization or, obviously, encouraging anyone to check it out. It might bug some people but it's not against board rules and people can always quit reading.
But with Mormonism, even in general discussion threads (where nobody's asking for support and gentle approaches) does it make any sense, in view of this board's purpose, to make positive comments about the program or the leaders? It would be like me saying that I had numerous bad experiences with the WatchTower Society (JWs) but hey, at least I learned some good public speaking skills. (So that makes their sketchy history and ongoing abuses OK?) Or with the LDS Church, if I say I disliked it but I sure enjoyed their annual picnics (extreme example, couldn't think of anything else, only went to one picnic, hated it).
So for anyone expecting the majority of comments here to be "fair" or positive or balanced or to think we're duty bound to give both sides, wrong.
And I too, like Cheryl, wince sometimes when "tough love" type remarks are blurted out onto a thread where gentle support is more obviously what is being requested or needed.
There's lots of threads. Plenty for everyone. Too, we can always break off from a thread and start our own if a post or comment somewhere has prompted us to take things on a tangent or if instead of directing our disagreement or strong feelings towards a particular OP we can make it more abstract. We can accomplish the same thing without being unsupportive in someone's thread.
I'm not advocating dancing around in slippers. I'm speaking now of the threads/posts where someone is needing assistance or a kind expression of support - which is what Cheryl is referencing. It would perhaps be more useful all round if we could focus more on the other poster and not on expressing our ire at the Mormon Church in adamant or angry terms that come across as railing against a poster in need.
As I said, I try to bear in mind if a post is primarily for discussion or else for support. That usually governs how I respond. Hopefully, it's usually fairly easy to tell from the subject line.
And yeah. People are not always going to be logical, lucid, listening, approachable or ready to learn, change opinions, alter overnight their values, behaviour, entire life. But we can care and chat and suggest and just say hi anyway. No lectures or arguments needed.
One of the hardest things may be to learn not to tell others what to do. And stop with the judging. Humans just seem to naturally react that way though. And then you add the religious element on top. Oy vey, as AmyJo says. (And yeah, I don't know how to spell that).
Also, let's not forget that, unfortunately, we sometimes get people here who are not actually interested in supporting RfM or its posters. I usually dismiss extremist comments or posters as being up to no good.
I remember a few very unkind posts YOU wrote about other people on this forum over the past few years. On one occasion it was even about me, and I found the post very coincidentally, because you had put your reply at a time of day when you knew it was the middle of the night GMT.
And I told you it was your own fault? To just get over it and not expect anyone to care? If I did that, I am deeply sorry. But it doesn't sound like something I would do.
Otherwise, I think you're proving my point. Your feelings were hurt because someone disagreed with you and mentioned it. Think how much worse that would be if they blamed you for losing a family member to illness or for some other personal tragedy? Mormons do this and sometime exmormons do it here on RfM.
Cheryl Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think you're proving my point. Your > feelings were hurt because someone disagreed with > you and mentioned it.
You still seem to have the mormon reflex of blaming everything on being offended. We (me and presumably the others, because it wasn't just about me) can live with the fact that people disagree. But ad hominem insults a bridge too far, and you've doe that on a few occasions.
Right now we are bombing countries over there and killing innocents. I have to assume that because you are Americans, and are not protesting, then that you all support that.
I assume also that you all support the trillions of dollars wasted by our government, because you are not protesting or leaving the country. Here's one example - $21 trillion unaccounted for military spending. That is about 70,000 per person in our country. Imagine how much more waste we don't know about. But nobody cares, and therefore supports such. https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-pentagon-cant-account-for-21-trillion/
Puts the church in perspective. I have never been forced to pay them, and I haven't given them a dime since 1997.
Of course, this will be spun as me supporting the church. No, it is a scam, but you can withdraw, as opposed to government scams for which I will be imprisoned if I don't pay.
Good post, Free Man. The church was horrible and I allowed it to screw up my personal life. The government is horrible and has killed and screwed up millions of lives and is putting hundreds of millions at risk.
“So when someone makes points about Mormonism that are untrue, or makes bigoted statements about Mormons, we are to simply support them?“
Doesn’t that depend on your objective? For me, sometimes correcting somebody or noting my opposition to their point of view takes a backseat to something else that I’d like to accomplish with that person. And maybe what I’m hoping to accomplish is to show them some kind of support or just pave the way for a few good laughs.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2018 06:18AM by jay.
jay Wrote: -------------------------------------------------------
> Doesn’t that depend on your objective? For me, > sometimes correcting somebody or noting my > opposition to their point of view takes a backseat > to something else that I’d like to accomplish > with that person. And maybe what I’m hoping to > accomplish is to show them some kind of support or > just pave the way for a few good laughs.
Do you have to have an objective, something you want to "accomplish" when you respond to someone? That can easily lead to telling them how to think or feel. It's reminiscent, to me, of being like a missionary, never saying hi just to say hi, always having the ulterior motive to convert, baptize, re-activate, whatever the LDS objective is for that person.
Cheryl Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Those who leave a cult deserve respect and > consideration. They need to find their own > authenticity. They do no need anyone to impose an > agenda or objective on them.
I believe everyone deserves respect and consideration when they are willing to respect and consider others.
This is not what Mormonism does. It doesn't respect and consider people in imposing its agenda and objectives.
Likewise leaving Mormonism and participating in a forum for recovering from it does good in my opinion where it doesn't impose things like this on forum participants.
"Recovery is about finding authentic values"
It is just your ideal for recovering. Recovering in my ideal doesn't require finding any values if I don't want to especially not replacements for Mormon values.
Posting here in my mind is about respect and consideration not finding values.
If I pull up to my friends house while he’s pounding his Make America Great Again sign into the grass, I might talk about the kids.
I may not need to Explain to my kid to her behavior is that of a bully. Instead I might allow that to play itself out over time while I engage in some other encouraging conversation.
Everything doesn’t always have to be corrected at every moment in time. And definitely not by me because I can’t tell you how often I find out later that I was wrong. So a bit of a pause on my part is prudent.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2018 01:04AM by jay.
"Everything doesn’t always have to be corrected at every moment in time. And definitely not by me because I can’t tell you how often I find out later that I was wrong. So a bit of a pause on my part is prudent."
Ditto. A thousand times over.
So often we forget we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.
"I don't understand why posters choose to support the mormon church over regular posters who are hurting. Sometimes readers assume a poster is simply hate fulled or mistaken with no evidence and then they jump in to say that THEIR family doesn't do whatever is causing trouble and pain to the poster."
The Mormon church is people, a lot of them. Some are the cult leaders and some are beloved family members. Some Exmormons have no Mormons they love.
I understand why Exmormons defend family here because there is so much anger that we (the Exmormons with Mormon family) feel like are loved ones are being attacked. It takes a thick skin to not feel that here.
So you agreeing with Cheryl don't understand me?
That's cool. Like I said to Cheryl RfM in my opinion is about respect and consideration. I can consider your situation if I knew anything about it. But I don't.
I don't think the point of this thread is that difficult to understand: How about being kind to posters who come here in illness or grief? If they're additionally hurt because of mormons in their lives, this isn't a good time to extol the virtues of the mormon church and claim their experience with mormonism isn't valid because it doesn't match what others have experienced.
Don't think this is reasonable? That's up to you. Want me to change to suit you? Not likely.
I'm here to help posters recover if I can. I think this suggestion would help this happen. But it isn't up to me.
This thread is not simply about supporting the mormon church. It's about throwing support for the church at posters who are grieving or ill and who are additionally suffering because of mormons in their lives.
I still don't see a problem with containing support for TBMs and mormonism to threads not centered posters suffering extreme trauma.
Cheryl Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > This thread is not simply about supporting the > mormon church. It's about throwing support for the > church at posters who are grieving or ill and who > are additionally suffering because of mormons in > their lives.
Can you offer examples so we know what you are talking about?