Time heals all wounds, somebody said today.

Not so much.

What about PTSD? Massive physical injury? Abuse? Colossal tragedy? (not in any particular order). Other wounds of life?

A friend lost her bf in high school in a traffic accident. Of course, it was traumatic for a teen to go through. Then, after just a few years of marriage and having recently given birth to their first child, her young husband was murdered. The enormous pain from her husband's death was piled onto the first death of her serious bf. She has now had two more children with a second husband but still she hurts, sometimes closer to the surface, always in mind.

I was nearly catapulted into eternity one day while driving along a narrow village road next to a water-filled ditch. Mom was a front seat passenger. A fool in a flash sports car a few vehicles behind me was driving far too fast on a rain-slick road covered in piles of soaking wet leaves. His car challenged gravity for a short moment by flipping up onto two wheels. My side mirror revealed the entire underside of his vehicle as it barrelled towards me from the left, on its edge, overtaking other cars between us, riding on the centre line. With the ditch close on my right, traffic stopped at traffic lights in front of me, oncoming vehicles not slowing down, I couldn't swerve or protect. There was no time to shout a warning to Mom but time enough for crawling fear at the seemingly inevitable horrific crash to come. I would die, I thought. His car was going to land on mine, squishing me flat, or pushing us into the watery ditch. Mom would drown (she can't swim; and has a terrible fear of water due to a childhood near-drowning incident). The sportsmobile then became airborne, flying through air, over oncoming traffic, landing on its roof in a sunken field beyond the ditch on the other side of the road. I saw no movement after it landed except for wheels slowing spinning in air.

Fear of crashing, accepting in an instant the inevitability of my seemingly impending death, worry about Mom experiencing her worst nightmare (drowning) and the utter helplessness of my situation and concern for the other driver's well-being all arose in an instant and left their imprint, even to this day at times.

When I saw him crawling out of his car and standing up under his own power, intense anger overwhelmed me. Fury because he endangered others due to stupidity and because he could easily have lost his own life.

When the police arrived he tried to pretend it was just an accident and he was so bewildered at why it had happened. Never said word one about his own unsafe driving. One officer took him across to his car and one stayed with me to get the info. I stayed factual for the paperwork part. Then I asked if I could talk to the guy. Very surprisingly, the cop said OK and we walked across the road. The other driver started with "Thanks so much for stopping, but I'm OK" as if I was merely a witness who was there to help him. I saw red. Almost literally. Slimy guy. Alert cop noticed and indicated to his partner to move me away. I had an overpowering compulsion to strike out at the other driver. I was so rattled I couldn't get any words out but was visualizing launching myself at him instead. My officer hustled me back across the road. Embarrassing. Not like me. I surprised myself. Funny but him not willing to voice his 100% fault and stupidity was the last straw for me.

I said to the officer "I thought I was going to run over to that field and find him dead" and I started to cry. That made me even angrier. Why would I cry about him being dead? I didn't know him and it would have been his fault. Wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been speeding in a total non-speeding situation.

The fear, the anger, and my utter horror at thinking of Mom drowning all combined to make an actual non-accident decidedly traumatic. The images and feelings of fear and panic and regret and rage did eventually fade. But. They come back. Especially the sight of his car up on two wheels coming at my vehicle at speed. Scary.

My work partly involves preparing legal reports re injuries, a large portion of which are sustained in traffic accidents. I recently came to realize that may be what has kept the incident more front of mind than it may be otherwise.

The feelings of fear and sorrow, the flashes of reliving the near-miss, the intense spurts of anger may have all faded, maybe would have with most other people. It was hardly the accident of the century. In fact, more like the accident that didn't occur. Kind of like Sherlock's dog that didn't bark? But maybe it was traumatic enough to elicit emotions and pictures that are unexpectedly long-lived. Or maybe it has to do with my work. So much time involved with other people's accidents and injuries. And they develop PTSD. And the insurer doesn't want to award damages for that. It's easy to dismiss the effects of someone else's trauma.

It can be hard for someone who hasn't been impacted by trauma to comprehend how tough it can be, as well as its after-effects. PTSD can take time to develop and can lurk over time. It can't always be fully explained to everyone's satisfaction. "Just get over it" can be very cruel words.

My personal example is a feather on a light breeze compared to the true horrors endured by masses of people every day. But even when an incident seems minor there is no telling how it can affect the involved party or when or if there will be complete recovery. That does not indicate that there is something wrong with a person who doesn't bounce back right away, or on somebody else's timeline, and/or who never ends up returning to their pre-incident status of wholeness or wellness. Too often, we kind of expect that of others and if it doesn't work out that way it's all too easy to blame it on someone's weakness, unfairly.

This discussion board is a good microcosm for many things. For instance, some people are so completely thrilled to find out that Mormonism (oops, I used that word) isn't "true". They take off running and never look back. In fact, many exmos never show up here at all. Others find us but don't stay as long as some of us have. (I've known a few posters in the past who are in that category). And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it could be the dream of others - if only they could forget! But what they experienced or how it affects them is obviously different from everyone else and their reactions and its effects will be their own to wrestle with, overcome in time, or live with forever. Especially in part-member families the issues are ongoing and the effects continue, as is evidenced by our fellow posters in that dilemma.

I was particularly thinking, though, of time/healing due to two examples of longlasting trauma I encountered in the past two days.

I heard a man today on a news item about the Pope's statement on the widespread abuse in the Catholic Church. He had been abused as a child by a priest. Today he said, in part, words to the effect that it is like being shot and the bullet stays in your body and moves around and still hurts. I guarantee that he isn't going to agree that as time goes by the pain lessens or that wounds eventually heal. Rather, that is a big part of the ongoing pain - that childhood abuse affects a person's entire life.

Also, the pain intensifies because rather than making it stop, church leaders covered it up and actively abetted further abuse by not removing the pedophile priests. Instead of stopping it, they perpetuated it - every church leader who knew it was true and did not make it stop when it was in their power to do so. They sacrificed children on the altar of their god - the church. They cared more for the institution than for its most vulnerable people.

Of course, the same can apply to any organization, any church, not just RC. But because it's considered by its proponents to be *the* church, because of the astronomical numbers of pedophile clergy and due to so many children being victimized, it is a big big deal.

I thoroughly depressed myself last night by watching a documentary called "GI Jews - Jewish Americans/WW2". Snippets of interviews with several vets (maybe from the '90s) were played throughout. One vet recalled entering one of the camps in Germany after D-Day and not expecting what they found, or at least not the extent of it. He cried as he recounted it, more than half a century later.

Fifty, sixty, seventy years on. Copious tears still fall. Pain like yesterday.

Time it flies, we know.

Wounds. Scars. Memories. Pain. Tears. They go on.

Healing? Not so much.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2018 07:05PM by Nightingale.

Not surprising that the experience still haunts you.

Time heals many wounds and bad memories, but certainly not all of them. Sometimes we're destined to relive and remember them forever.

I'm glad you brought up this subject because I was also bothered by the seemingly glib comment.

Perhaps that might be why I awoke in the night after dreaming about the bad experiences I had a few years ago during radiation treatment.

Humans are smart and their brains register the good, the bad, and the ugly. There's no disgrace if some of these experiences stay with us for years or possibly forever.

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

You have sure had some big challenges, Cheryl, health-wise as well as with your past history. You said "...destined to relive and remember them forever".

Yes, exactly.

Thanks, Cheryl.

Those are valid points.

The way I see it is that miracles do happen. When the body heals that doesn't mean it's fixed to a perfect state once again like nothing happened. It means it recovers to a point that it's functional once again, and as time progresses it continues to fix itself.

But ya, none of us will ever be 18 again no matter what regimen we are on.

Thank you. Good thoughts. I like how you expressed that. I know that about myself - that I always involuntarily want/expect a do-over. I say to myself: OK, now I know what I didn't know before. Can we go back and try it again? Of course, no.

It seems obvious but still it's thought-provoking - maybe if we can reject that quest for perfection (a perfect record, perfect childhood, perfect performance from ourselves) we are way ahead of the game. Mistakes are just mistakes, then we can learn something valuable and use it moving forward. I can remember from young childhood that expectation of perfection, by adults in my world and then, understandably because of that, from myself. It can take a long time to move more towards realistic thinking.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2018 05:50PM by Nightingale.

Nighty,
I too would not say time heals all wounds.

At best, I would say people learn to adapt to wounds.
Some wounds may heal, but many remain open and we learn to live with them over time. We learn to cope which is not the same as healing.


Using your example, imagine the message it sends to a child abused at Church when he grows up and realizes people still supported their Church more than him through it all.

Those priests are not in jail and the Pope wrote another dumb letter. Big deal. Sorry they were inconvenienced by getting public exposure.

The families and friends of the abused children continued to empower the religion because ultimately they care more about maintaining their Church (no matter what it does) than making a stand by leaving the abuser network for their children. That happens in other religions too. Those are wounds that do not heal.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Using your example, imagine the message it sends
> to a child abused at Church when he grows up and
> realizes people still supported their Church more
> than him through it all.

I knew my parents support the church more than me. It was obvious. I never told them as a child because I knew I would be questioned and dismissed.

You said "...learn to adapt...". Good one - so evolutionary. :)

Regarding the abused kids, I have in mind another discussion on that topic. It's so in the news, so crucial, we need to talk about it more. Totally agree with your comment about the pain of realizing that for the adults in your world the institution is more valuable than you are. Absolutely, "wounds that do not heal".

It's nearly incomprehensible to me. Many of the terrible things that go on are hidden or else too far away or out of our league to personally address or resolve. To think that prominent leaders with the power to change/prevent things ignored the plight of the children is tragic for the abuse survivors and appalling on the part of the ones in the know. They have zero defensible excuses.


To Elder Berry: I am so sorry. This is the type of malignancy running inside some institutions, unfortunately a significant number of them being religions. Supposed to be better than. It hurts more that they should be above that - they sure preach the word that they are. Their people suffer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2018 06:02PM by Nightingale.

Thanks Night.

I'm reading a book on female sexual fantasies. We live in a culture only now coming around to acknowledging they exist.

I'd love to blame The Mormon Church for so much but in reality it exists because the greater cultures out in the world tolerate it.

When we as humans can no longer support with our participating in things like the Mormon Church I think many abused people (and many don't even know they were/are) will have lessened their numbers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2018 12:04PM by Elder Berry.

It seem to me that time just puts wounds to sleep so they can wake up cranky.

I love this, Kathleen. It made me laugh.

:)

I laughed at your comment too, kathleen.

But, as always with humour, there is a deeper, serious aspect. You said it so poetically.

When I publicly blew the whistle on Oaks in 1993 for comfortably lying about his fellow Mormon hit-man Boyd K. Packer-orchestrated excommunication of Salt Lake author Paul Toscano, dastardly Dallin determined that I had failed in my then-LDS obligation to believe and follow non-folksy Oaksy as a high Mormon Church leader. Oaks expected me to cover for him after he blatantly lied in the open about what he and I had talked about behind closed doors in the offices of the Church Administration Building.

In an on-the-record interview with an "Arizona Republic" newspaper reporter, Paul Brinkley-Rogers, Oaks shamelessly misrepresented the truth about Packer’s involvement in the excommunication of Toscano--who had attracted scowling Church attention for, among other things, suggesting that members need not perpetuate a Cult of Personality by standing up when General Authorities walked into the room.


When I eventually called out Oaks for his lies, he went to the Church-owned "Deseret News" to respond thusly: "Time wounds all heels." Here's how the Mormon Church's house organ reported it:

"Sitting in his office in the LDS Church administration building, Elder Dallin H. Oaks carefully reads a news report that says he admitted to 'falsely telling' a journalist he had no knowledge of an event involving the excommunication of a Church member. 'Life isn't fair,' Elder Oaks said. 'Somebody said that time heals all wounds. But it's also true that time wounds all heels,' he added in jest."

("Elder Oaks Says News Story 'Seriously Distorted' Facts," by Matthew S. Brown, Staff Writer, Deseret News, 16 October 1993)

"Jest," my eye. Oaks just got busted.

How apostolic.

How Christ-like.

How dishonest.

How Oaks.



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2018 12:23PM by steve benson.

Thank you, Steve. These behind the scenes accounts are always riveting.

It's hard to believe Oaks would make that comment to you about time wounding all heels. Nasty.

Undoubtedly time will get him. The big heel.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2018 01:47AM by steve benson.

I haven't been back to the thread where I said something about time not healing wounds.

I used to watch one of the psychics. I really like him, but I don't watch him anymore. He had a show on something like Lifetime. John Edwards. My brain takes time and it finally came to me.

One time he said that we all have "Grand Canyons" of pain that we have been through, but just like we don't visit the Grand Canyon all the time, those Grand Canyons in our life are still there and we still visit them, just not every day.

I just found out the other day while I was picking out apples in Wal-Mart that my brother's son, who he never met, but paid child support for until he was 18, died 7 years ago and we didn't know. He was killed in an automobile accident. My brother always believed he'd meet him. That maybe he'd come looking for him. In fact, we had been looking for him. He would have been 31. He is just 1-1/2 years younger than my twins. We also found out that his son had a son, so my brother is a grandfather and didn't know it. We are now looking for the grandson. The mother of his child is difficult to communicate with. It took 9 years for her to final get a paternity test. But how should my brother feel? We found a picture on fb of his son and he looks just like him. Just like my dad, too. I found the news article on line about the accident he died in.

So you just get over it?

You don't. You survive. You move on. Most of us do. Not all do. Some leave. My good friend from elementary school took her own life some years ago because her sister and dad died of cancer within 2 weeks of each other years ago and she never got over it.

I had to live for my kids, otherwise I would have left. So many time in my life I wanted to, but I didn't. And I'm glad for certain reasons that I didn't leave.

I'd like to see the show you were watching Nightingale about the men who went into the death camp. My boyfriend's dad was one of those who went into one of the camps. He never talked about it.

Thank you for your post Nightingale. That accident sounds ??? I can't even think of a word. Horrible isn't good enough.

And I've always felt about the priest abuse. I did ask my Catholic friends,and I've said this before, how they felt about it. They said it was "unfortunate." UNFORTUNATE? Unless it happens to you or your child.

Could you link the thread "time heals all wounds" was on?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2018 01:56PM by cl2.

Hi cl2. I read your post on that thread. I can relate to what you said about your struggles and the reasons why things were so tough. It's totally understandable why they still cause pain, including that some of the same factors are still at play. You have done an incredible job of negotiating through it all.

I did not include a link to that previous thread here as I wasn't intending to single out one post or poster. It was more just a reaction to the sentiment that all ends up being well with time. As we've discussed here, not so much in some circumstances.

That is incredibly sad about your brother's son. I'm so sorry. You're right - with some things you never can or will "get over" it - you just survive.

What still amazes me is how memories seem to have a life of their own. A song, a word, a sight, an event can bring back not only the memory but also the feelings it elicited at the time. Music, of course, is powerfully evocative. You could avoid sad songs (as I tend to do, when I'm not taking time out to wallow in them - alternative therapy I call it!) but even so, many random things in addition to music, poetry, images, movies awaken something from the past, often catching us unawares.

I've mentioned before that my brother's wife died at work one day. She literally "dropped dead" from a brain aneurysm. My brother worked in the same location and was summoned to her to find her lying on the floor, dead. They had only been married for six years. Despite the shock and sorrow he managed to hold it together and cope all the way right to the funeral where he totally lost it just before the service was to start. Fortunately, my pastor friend who was presiding stepped forward to help him and they spent some time. (Brother and SIL were not at all religious so the pastor didn't have that aspect to call on). I had to witness that and then deliver the eulogy shortly after. I managed to make it through except when I tried to read a love poem that was a family favourite. The sentiment of it got to me just as I read the title and I nearly lost it myself on the stage. The pastor kindly stepped in and read the poem for me instead (and did a great job of it). Shortly after, my address included a couple of lighter comments that brought laughter, surprisingly. People I didn't know on my SIL's side of the family told me afterwards how much they appreciated my words, which touched me greatly. I could see how much my SIL had meant to them (of course) and how important it was to them that she be honoured. Sometimes you get lucky and find the right words/best way. I could cry right now, reliving that, and still being sorrowful for my brother who loved her so much. I didn't know when I was younger that grief doesn't just fade away to be finally expunged from our minds and hearts. Older, wiser...

All the best to you, cl2.

That is SO SAD about your brother's wife. We just never know what life is going to throw at us. It is really special that you were able to give the eulogy as it would be such a difficult thing to do. It is so sad when people die so young. It is sad when they die old, but at least when my parents left, I knew it was time. They were suffering.

I had to think really hard to figure out why, but I think I figured it out--why the thread is gone.

I just remember the thread well. I didn't know what others had said afterwards and I was rather curious.

Music is a TOUGH ONE. I was sitting in the movie, was it, Click, and they played a song from the time I found out he is gay and I didn't know what it was. It was just the music at first and not the words. I was sitting there with tears running down my cheeks. I had gone to the movie alone as my daughter worked there and I'd go to a late movie and then follow her home. That really caught me off guard. It has happened other times, too. You just never know when it will hit you.

I avoid many songs and movies and . . . and I do very well. I sometimes have angry days or sad days, but most days I'm fine.

I must have told my son that I an angry at him for not allowing me to enjoy raising my kids for those last 10 years as he brought it up yesterday. I told him I had re-thought things and realized that I had them all to myself. Life was tough, but we were a team and we had a lot of good times, my kids and I and the dog. My ex will often cry to me about how much he lost by handling things like he did. I know he regrets how he handled things now. That does help a lot. I'm glad we are good friends



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2018 08:04PM by cl2.

When a magician makes something disappear, it is still somewhere.

Great post Nightingale. One of my favorite songs long time ago was from the musical Mack and Mabel and Mabel sings, "Time heals everything . . . Monday, Tuesday . . .One day . . . someday." But quite a while after I realized it doesn't work that way and the song is really Mable kidding herself that she will heal from the heartbreak.

Hurt may be better understood. The memory of hurt may be shifted to a different part of the brain or the heart. But the trauma is still an ember than can be fanned into flames with only a few wisps of air sometimes. Healing as you say, not so much.

I was listening to Grace VanderWaal's beautiful song, "Escape My Mind" the other day and I thought about all this. The lyric, "I wish I could not think for once in my life," really hit home. Like at three in the Morning and you just want to turn your mind off and forget what ever ember has flamed up this time.

Love the way you write Nightingale and how infused it is with you.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When a magician makes something disappear, it is
> still somewhere.

Haha, good point, D&D.


> The memory of hurt may be shifted to a different part of the brain or the heart. But the trauma is still an ember than can be fanned into flames with only a few wisps of air sometimes. Healing as you say, not so much.

Poetic, D&D. Different part. Back of the shelf. Indeed. Definitely re wisps of air. That's the part that amazes me. The workings of the brain are fascinating. You can't wish it away but some days you can hope it would quieten down a bit.


> I was listening to Grace VanderWaal's beautiful
> song, "Escape My Mind" the other day and I thought
> about all this. The lyric, "I wish I could not
> think for once in my life," really hit home. Like
> at three in the Morning and you just want to turn
> your mind off and forget what ever ember has
> flamed up this time.

I don't know that song. I'm going to look it up.


> Love the way you write Nightingale and how infused
> it is with you.

D&D, I can't express how much this means to me. I love the way you talk and read all of your posts. Your life experiences are instructive and I appreciate you sharing them with us. (Especially on my threads). :)

You may know Grace VanderWaal won America's Got Talent a couple of years ago. The song I mentioned I love. But even more, her cover of "I Can See Clearly Now" and the video with it are touching and enthralling and could well be a soundtrack for your post. Music heals better than time maybe?

Oh yeah. She's opening for our very own Imagination Dragons on their tour supposedly. Great combo.

I really appreciate every comment. It means a lot that you take the time to read my post/s, especially as I know they are usually long, often winding. I always learn something from your replies.

In this case, due to how you've impacted my thoughts on the subject, I'll amend my opinion that the old maxim "Time Heals All Wounds" is not realistic, therefore wrong, to emphasizing instead that time heals some wounds, time changes how the wounds feel and affect us. I stand by the consensus, and what seems so obvious to me, that time cannot, and never will, heal every wound.

I sometimes don't notice that I am generalizing, which is often just as unhelpful when I do it as it is, in my opinion, when others do it except from the opposite point of view. Funny how when something seems so clear-cut to us we fall into that trap. In this case, I responded to the comment that time heals all wounds to swinging too far the other way, that time doesn't heal. So now I'll move back more towards the middle of that scale. Obviously it's not either/or.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2018 04:16PM by Nightingale.

I appreciate your perspective, Nightingale. I've often said that time is a great healer, but you are right, it is too facile to say that time can make right every wound.

Years ago I was assisting an elderly client who was obviously prosperous, and on the surface, healthy. I glanced down at her forearm to see a string of numbers tattooed on -- concentration camp numbers. She quickly pulled down her sleeve to cover the tattoo. She didn't want to go there. I honored her unspoken request in the same way that I silently saluted her bravery as a survivor. She was one of the "lucky" ones to survive. But it was obvious that she still carried pain, and understandably so.

I only just noticed that my subject line needed a quick edit - from Time Heal All Wounds to Time HealS All Wounds.

Kind of interfered with Dallin Oaks' play on words re Steve B - Oaks said "time wounds all heels". (Pitiful comment from a spiritual leader, one would think).

Just my little retrospective part in messing up his uninspiring remark.

I know my broken heart will heal...but there will always be a scar...

I often think of you and your heart. Of course there will be a scar. You have a love story.

thank you Nightingale

cl2 said she'd like to hear more about the documentary I mentioned re US vets relating their WW II experiences. It has certainly impacted me - I can't get it out of my head. (I note I wrote "WW2" above - I know it's usually rendered "WWII" but I mistakenly thought the title of the film used a numeral as in "WW2". I think that must have been the TV station - I've corrected it here to reflect the correct title of the documentary).

Below is an online article written by Rachel Weingarten (April/18). (I'm not including name of the site as I'm not sure about its ads and other articles - it seems quite political, not allowed here).

Weingarten writes:

“Last week, in honor of Holocaust Remembrance Day, PBS aired a documentary called GI Jews: Jewish Americans in World War II. … It was fascinating. It was moving. It was funny and full of history and pathos and told a story that a majority of us have never heard. GI Jews featured Jewish men and women who were simultaneously fighting to liberate Europe from Hitler, while contending with anti-semitism on the home front and from fellow servicemen and women. Among the unknown faces were more famous ones including Mel Brooks, Carl Reiner and Henry Kissinger. The documentary also touched on the lasting damage to authors Norman Mailer and J.D. Salinger, whose service and experiences deeply colored their lives and writing.”
…

“Director/Producer Lisa Ades shared a bit more about what inspired her to make the film:

“I was working on another documentary and I started speaking to Jewish Americans about their experiences in World War II,” Ades said. “Their stories were fascinating and surprising—how after Pearl Harbor they had lied about their age in order to enlist; what it meant to serve as children of immigrants; the anti-Semitism they confronted in basic training on their way to fight the Nazis; the horror of the concentration camps they liberated; and how, on their return home, they found themselves changed forever.”
…

“The story is based on Deborah Dash Moore‘s book, GI Jews: How World War II Changed a Generation, inspired by her own father’s service in the war. “We contacted her about making a documentary on the subject. She was delighted to come on board as a senior advisor and on-camera interview,” Ades said. “I was surprised that even though several films had been made on aspects of Jewish Americans in WWII, no one had yet made a comprehensive documentary on the subject. Here, we would be able to tell the stories of Jews not only as victims of the war, but as Americans fighting for both their nation and their people.”

…

“The film took almost five years to make,” Ades said. “The challenge was how to capture these stories while the men and women who served were still alive to tell them. In 2013, fewer than 6% of WWII veterans, mostly in their 90s, were still alive.”

-----------------


I can't usually watch or listen to accounts of war. If I do I have to gloss over them. Too depressing for me. I ruminate over the bad, sad sights, sounds and realities and it's hard to get it all out of my head. I know a lot of details about history and the war, of course, but there are some things I don't want to hear or especially to see. Images you cannot erase. I try to keep the faith though by viewing what I can handle.

With this documentary, first the title caught my eye. Next, the photography. I love photos, especially in black & white. So I was hooked. Then, the narration and content were riveting. As the writer of the above article said, the documentary contains stories many of us have never heard. That's exactly what I said while watching it. Accounts I have never heard from vets who were in the thick of the action and the liberation; for example, the Battle of the Bulge on the Western Front (the largest battle of the war for US troops, who sustained over 90K KIA in just that one conflict); and the featured vets also took part in freeing prisoners from concentration camps and they related their experiences and film from the time was included.

Ades, the director, was quoted in this article as saying that she was interested in telling the story of "Jews not only as victims of war, but as Americans fighting for both their nation and their people". That aspect of the documentary also struck me. Again, a story perhaps largely untold until now. And certainly one I have not heard before. Some of the US soldiers were Jews who had escaped from Europe but they went back to fight against the Nazis.

I didn't employ my usual practice of changing channels, or at least closing my eyes when things got rough. I've seen pictures and movies of camp survivors before, of course, but now new images are frozen inside my head. Untold numbers of Jewish and other prisoners were squished together in the compound at one point in the film, after liberation, listening to various people address them from a stage. Some were so young. Many were sobbing. Others stood quietly. Not many looked at the camera filming them. (The documentary is full of original photography and 'video'). I recall being surprised that some had hankies to wipe their tears. A weird, errant, inconsequential thought.

The narrator stated that the Nazis continued to kill prisoners and others way past the point when they knew they were going to lose the war. So cruel. Such particularly unnecessary waste.

I was not prepared for them to show (again, never seen before in my knowledge or experience) the US soldiers going into the crematorium at one camp and opening the ovens. I didn't look away fast enough and now there's stuff in my head I will not be able to expunge. They said, and showed, that very recently, right before the US army arrived, the Nazis had continued to murder Jews. The evidence was incontrovertible. (I will withhold precise details).

The voice of one of the vets being interviewed was playing while the soldiers were shown in the film walking into the crematorium. He said that of course they had heard what was happening to the Jews under the Nazis. But now the American Jews were witnessing firsthand what the European Jews (and others) had suffered. Of course, it was devastating for anybody, with an extra layer of pain for those of Jewish descent.

Many of the US soldiers spent time over there searching for family members. Some found relatives still alive; many discovered that theirs were wiped out.

They said that 550,000 Jews served in WWII (obviously, of all nationalities).

An incident was related about a group of US prisoners. Again they said that the Nazis were continuing to execute prisoners even when they knew their war was lost. When a few hundred US army prisoners were marched into one camp, 200 Jews amongst them, the camp commander instructed the US commander to order all his men who were Jewish to line up outside in the a.m. Of course this did not auger well for the Jewish soldiers. The US commander (I don't know his rank) told his men that night "We will ALL line up outside in the morning". (Gave me shivers). Which they did, to a man. The Nazi officer ordered the US commander to get his Jewish men to stand separately from the others. The US officer stated "Today, we are all Jews". (More shivers). So beautiful. So poignant. The Nazi took out his sidearm and pointed it at the US officer's forehead, saying "If you don't give the order I will shoot you". The US man said something to the effect to go ahead and do what you're going to do but I'm not giving that order. The Nazi turned and marched away to his office. The men were safe and later freed. The film's narrator said that American commanding officer had saved 200 lives that day.

A rabbi conducted a service at the camp that was broadcast back to the US (and other locales?). They said it was the first such broadcast since the start of the war. Very moving. The rabbi said words to the effect that here lie officers and soldiers, Jew and Gentile, black and white, no discrimination, no hatred; we have to remember the reason why they died, carry it on, and we swear it shall not be in vain. Brave words. Not guaranteed to come to pass, as we have seen.

One of the narrator vets said with regret "we cried that day, not only tears of sorrow. We cried tears of hate". One stated "We fought for democracy, equality, religious tolerance for all". Yet another "Then we came back home (US) to signs like "No Jews. No Dogs".

Another said their tragedy was that others had caused them to feel hatred [because of what had been done by the oppressors against the oppressed]. They wished they didn't feel like that.

It was riveting, and terrible, and beautiful, and memorable.

Those words resonate with me. We should strive not to give in to hatred. It only ends up wounding ourselves.


This is topical for RfM although some may not think so at first, or at all. I can't find the words right now to address that aspect of it. Something about how we are only hurting ourselves if we allow hate to fester. And that nobility is ever-present even amongst we imperfect humans. There are courageous, self-sacrificing, noble people all around us through the ages, some more obvious than others. I am in awe of RfM posters who have been through unbelievable pain, hardship, obstacles, tragedy and have struggled to survive and prosper. It takes courage to tell one's personal story, even anonymously. I learn from so many who have a lot to share. I wish more could be impacted by the better aspects of the human spirit (so to speak) being dominant in their lives. That can be difficult to achieve if you're in a closed shop (such as the more fundy churches, the more cloistered faiths, theocracies). Hopefully, this gathering place can help to counteract that in at least a small measure.

Meanwhile, I highly recommend the documentary described. I hope you can find it and listen to the vets themselves telling their stories.

I also watched this on Sunday. Some of it was new, most of it not. I grew up in a community that was about 40% Jewish.

When we studied WWII in high school the parents of our classmates who were concentration camp survivors would give a panel discussion daily for a week. Hearing the horror of Nazi Germany first hand from the people who experienced it when you are 16 - 17 years leaves a hole in your heart.

But you also were left to marvel at the lives they had built for themselves in a new country. They were inspiring people that I am proud to say I knew.

I agree Nighty. I watched that program the other day and I ended

up marveling about how we humans are remarkable and noble and

brave. In the face of such sadness and tragedy that so many of us

have gone though we carry on , pick up our pain and deep sadness

we go on in life and try to make the best of it. Our courage

as people touches my heart and makes me so proud of them and the

dignity with which they go on in their lives.

Thanks for posting. It never occurred to me that a near miss could be so traumatic. You obviously take your life very seriously. Lots of people are just along for the ride. You feel so deeply. You could never be Mormon.

Funny thing about being “over it”. You learn to love yourself and then all that stuff becomes “not okay”.

Maybe growing up in the church helped me deal with my own mortality because I was always waiting to die. Like some freaking Klingon. Every birthday was a big surprise. 20, 25, 30, 35, not dead yet.

Edit: An epiphany today. Which things were a disaster and which were the best that ever happened to me? What if everything that’s ever happened to me is the best thing that ever happened? Because that’s how my reality works. It took so much to get here. Maybe the whole damn thing is one big miracle. Now that would make sense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2018 07:45PM by babyloncansuckit.

We do