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Posted by: scoates ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 09:32AM

Just got kicked out of my home last night for not being LDS enough. Divorce will follow and I’m a bit stunned. I have four kids. We’ve barely been able to make house payments, so I don’t know how I can afford a place to live on my own. I want to be able to have my kids part of the time, but that doesn’t seem possible.

Even if you don’t have any useful advice, I could use someone who understands to talk to. And maybe vent a little...

Edit: Thanks everyone. I’ve looked into abandonment. I felt like leaving seemed more mature than standing my ground in the house, but I’m heading back tonight and we’ll resolve things by calling the cops if that’s her desire.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2018 06:51PM by scoates.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 09:38AM

Not sure I have any useful advice, other than to contact a lawyer ASAP (yes, I know you don't have much money -- do it anyway. There are lawyers who will talk to you knowing you're having financial issues). Start protecting your rights with regard to community property and kids NOW.

I do understand, though. My mom kicked my inactive dad out and divorced him -- at the explicit suggestion of the bishop. Even at 14 (the age I was when it happened), I basically took my dad's side, and considered what my mom did both unfair and stupid.

If nothing else, it generated a resolve in me that when I got married, I wouldn't let religion be the main point of a marriage, or a point of contention. And that's how things worked out :)

I'm sorry you're in this spot. Vent away. It sucks, no doubt about it. Another sad example of someone choosing a cult over their spouse...that's just so horribly screwed up.

Hang in there.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 09:38AM

You need to lawyer up, friend. You have rights too.

The house is your house as well as your spouse's. And the children too.

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Posted by: scoates ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 09:47AM

I’ve proven unable to take care of the kids on my own. So it would be selfish of me to try to get the house.

Why is getting a lawyer so urgent?

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 09:48AM

Yes... get a lawyer.

I am my husband's second wife and I've been around long enough to see the aftermath of divorce, particularly when it's done without legal help. In some ways, it worked out in my husband's favor that his ex did the divorce herself. In other ways, he got screwed. Fortunately, he survived and is thriving now. It's taken years, though.

My husband and his ex were converts and his daughters were raised LDS. He lost contact with them for years. The younger one got back in touch with him last year, having not spoken to him in over ten years. He hasn't seen his kids in person since 2004, but the younger one now Skypes.

You have rights. Be prepared to stand up for them. And know that there is life after divorce. We're living a great life now, but it was rough going for awhile...

And in case anyone is wondering, no, I wasn't the cause of the divorce. :)

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Posted by: been through it myself ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 09:49AM

It's usually not a good idea to leave the house. I'd move back in if I were you. Unless you've been abusive, there's probably nothing your spouse can do about it.

You need to start collecting important documents and keeping them some place that your spouse cannot destroy or confiscate them. That would include bank statements, home purchase documents, credit card statements, etc. Make sure that you can document on paper any contributions you made to the house, property and marriage from your pre-martial resources,, especially if you helped pay for your spouse's education.

If you have anything significant in joint bank accounts, your spouse can withdraw them without your permission. You may want to take steps to avoid that.

Unless you want to get divorced, I would try marriage counseling. If you do want to get divorced, lawyer up now. It may cost a lot of money, but it will be cheaper in the long run.

Good luck. I sympathize with you.

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Posted by: praydude ( )
Date: August 25, 2018 09:45AM

^^ DO THIS **

You will establish a pattern of who is at home with the kids and moving out is the wrong thing to do.

Don't be bullied. You have to stand up for yourself and your kids.

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Posted by: scoates ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 10:01AM

We’re at the end of trying to resolve it. It’s over.

I’m worried because I didn’t leave in the most graceful way. And She’s going to hold it against me. I yelled at her in front of the kids, and when she followed me around the house pestering me, I physically pushed her out of the room to lock the door. She screamed like I was assaulting her and now insists that I’m a danger to the kids. She’s become so unreasonable I don’t even recognize her.

But no matter how much she tries to skew the details, I’ve never hurt her or the kids, nor do I even get mad at my kids.

But I’m pretty mad at her now. I feel like she’s out to destroy me.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 11:12AM

Nearly everyone who's gone through the heat of a divorce has raised their voice and made a scene. It means nothing in the big picture, unless that's something you do on a regular basis. Therefore, you are not in danger of losing your kids because you lost your cool. You need to rely on competent legal advice, not your feelings of guilt or your spouses anger.

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Posted by: Infrequent Observer ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 12:00PM

Get a lawyer. Your description of the circumstances of your exit leads me to believe, that if she is legally savvy at all, she may already have a restraining order against you. Believe me, I've seen a restraining order issued over someone simply walking out of the house and throwing a cell phone on the ground out of the view of the children. If the order is in place, then you returning to the house could put you in more trouble and could get you arrested. However, you do have every right to go to the house, just in the right way (you may need a police escort). It sounds far fetched, but these things get messy pretty quick. The first one to get a lawyer and start doing things the correct way, usually ends up in the best position.

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Posted by: scoates ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 12:11PM

Thanks. I thought I would be able to keep my cool. But she was smiling and laughing and I went from zero to sixty pretty fast. She’s posturing too, which is transparent to me. The kids will remember that dad was mad and mom wasn’t.

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Posted by: scoates ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 10:03AM

It just seems so selfish. I wouldn’t have thought her capable of it.

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 10:19AM

You may want to check out www.shrink4men.com. Even if your wife isn't a high conflict person, there are guys there who have been through and are going through what you're facing.

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Posted by: NewLibrarian ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 11:08AM

I am sorry you are going through this. Let me tell you a scary story.

Your wife now feels that you are a danger to your children. She is now refusing to let you see your children and goes as far as moving and changing her phone number and changes the children's school. All without giving you any warning. She also refuses to give you the new information. She instructs her family to not tell you anything. She may have even though about switching wards or going to a different building, just so you can't see your kids. When you find out where she lives and try to see the kids she calls the cops on you and the cops make you leave because this is a civil matter that has to be handled by a judge. Oh, and you don't get to see your kids.

The scary part is that is a situation that does happen and the only way to protect yourself from it is to GET A LAWYER and GET A CUSTODY ORDER ASAP. Unless there is a custody order in play either parent can take the kids and move them anywhere in the US without informing the other parent where the kids are. It is 100% legal. I did it in 2009 when my husband (we were separated) threatened the safety of my children. Before I did it I called the police, state troopers, 3 lawyers, CPS, and did this in both states. So long as a parent doesn't take the children out of the country they are not breaking any laws. PLEASE get a lawyer!

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Posted by: StillAnon ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 12:15PM

Get back in your house ASAP!!!
Not being LDS enough is not a legal reason for divorce. Abandonment is!
Step 1 is get back in your house unless the police or courts removed you.
If you fail to complete Step 1, be prepared for a royal screwing by your wife and the courts. Learn your rights and use them. If not, you're complicit in getting taken to the cleaners.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 01:04PM

I'm so sorry for what you're going through. The situation is grim enough even without the financial implications. It's a bullet i dodged by happening to fall for practically the first nevermo girl I laid eyes on following my mission, or I very likely would eventually have been where you are now.

Most who have been where you are say there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I wish we could make it closer for you.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 01:07PM

Sorry the church ruined your wife. That’s what it does. It’s no place for a woman. Maybe okay for dogs.

TSCC: The gift that keeps on giving.

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Posted by: dogblogger ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 01:31PM

Leave emotion out if it to the extent you can. Emotional behavior and thinking rewards only the attorneys. Your interest is now you and the kids.

Allegedly if you can delay the filing until next year in the US, there are benefits to you in doing so. But talk to a lawyer which I am not.

Change the locks on your car. Expensive, but when she has car trouble she'll come "borrow" your car with the keys she just happened to find. Change your pay deposit to a dirlfferenr account shes not on. But don't deny what she is legally entitled to. While garnishment sounds punishing, it is your protection against claims of non or low or late payment.

Expect bankruptcy for you and or her avoid it if possible but be prepared. Simplify your life to an extreme. Be prepared to have property used as a weapon. Not just real estate but anything you personally value she still has physical control of.

Hiding assetts only gets you in trouble.

Just because the divorce decree says one party is responsible doesn't take you off the loan unless she gets a new loan to pay off the old one which she probably won't qualify for.

Do not concern yourself with what she says about you to you or to others. There's no controlling that from her in court or anywhere else. Let her dig her own hole of hate. There's no gain to you in fighting that. Let your own behavior be the counter argument. Do not speak poorly of her to the extent you can. Just let her go and develop indifference to her.

Go to divorce court now and watch people get divorced. You'll learn a lot.

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Posted by: gettinreal ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 02:24PM

I like to think reasonable people can work out their differences, even through a divorce.
Unfortunately, it sounds like your soon to be ex is NOT reasonable. Restraining orders are INCREDIBLY easy to obtain and will make your life MUCH harder. You REALLY need to get an attorney on your side. The stakes in your case are simply too high.

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Posted by: captainklutz ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 03:06PM

I think she might have been trying to provoke you into some physical action so she has grounds for a TRO at a minimum.

Talk to your kids. If they say you haven't been abusive, I'd recommend a short video of each saying you haven't been. That way if they change their story at her urging, you have something at least. keep it simple.

Get a lawyer. I'm wondering if there's a more-mo suitor in the wings.

Good luck!

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Posted by: Anon2018+ ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 03:39PM

I know folks are saying "get a lawyer...lawyer up..." but you said you could barely afford house payments so I suspect you don't have 5-15K for a lawyer. Easier said than done, right my friend?I am going to give you some opposite advice. Obviously, if she is hell bent on divorcing you - you don't have a choice. If divorce is happening...I would wait for her to lawyer up, see what they present, if it's acceptable to you - then don't lawyer up. Sort of a wait and see approach.

However, maybe you could reconcile with her. Let things cool down. Can you fake it in the Mormon church for her? Many do. You'd be w/ your kids. Get a job on Sunday. Divorce isn't always the answer. Things are just very heated right now. Let the emotions subside.

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Posted by: Free Man ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 03:54PM

You’re part of the Patriarchy and she kicked you out? How does that happen? I’m guessing you’re stronger than her.

I would get back there. Do not engage in fights. If she talks divorce, tell her she is free to leave. If she begins harassing or threatening you, start recording video.

She needs to know her actions have consequences, and her true colors will be displayed. Image is everything to her.

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Posted by: Free man ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 03:58PM

And if she gets physical, call the cops and keep recording.

Women commit about half the domestic violence and for some reason we guys put up with it more than the reverse.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 04:51PM

Ah yes, the high rate of assault, rapes and murder of men at the hands of their female partners is the best kept secret in the world.

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Posted by: gettinreal ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 05:34PM

Rape, assault, murder....
Are you seriously that stupid?
Domestic violence, while inclusive, is not limited to your narrow definition. And yes, it IS massively under reported because of attitudes like yours.

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Posted by: gettinreal ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 05:35PM

I’m beginning to get suspicious about this thread....

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Posted by: dogblogger ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 05:44PM

Yeah, me too

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 05:52PM

That was satire. Free Man is always asserting that men are always the victims of women.

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Posted by: Anon18 ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 09:01PM

Well they are sometimes...maybe not always.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 10:00PM

That is correct.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 05:55PM

Here are the numbers:

"Both women and men experience these forms of violence, but a greater number of women experienced several types of violence examined. For instance, during their lifetime, 1 in 5 women experienced completed or attempted rape; 1 in 6 women were stalked; and 1 in 4 experienced contact sexual violence, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner and reported some form of intimate partner violence-related impact. Results indicate that many males are also experiencing these forms of violence. For example, during their lifetime, 1 in 14 men were made to sexually penetrate someone else; 1 in 17 men were stalked; and 1 in 10 experienced contact sexual violence, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner and reported some form of intimate partner violence-related impact. Furthermore, findings indicate that these forms of violence often begin early in life for both women and men. Across the majority of violence types measured, most first time victimization occurred prior to age 25, and many victims first experienced violence before age 18."

https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/2015NISVSdatabrief.html

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Posted by: anono this week ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 03:57PM

How about moving in with your folks? It's better than the streets and you can save money. It's tough for single guys financially (i'm one) In this day and age it takes two middle class incomes to survive (and not have to live in a dumpy drugy house where your neighbors do drive bys everynight).

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 05:08PM

My now-ex threatened to kill me if I talked to an attorney - even once. I will never forget his words: "I don't care how sneaky you are. This is a small town and I have eyes everywhere." He said that if I needed legal advice, he could talk to HIS attorney.

But as his attorney kept reminding me, every time I asked a particularly key question, he would say, "Remember that I work for MR ex-catnip. I cannot answer that."

The the ex and his attorney ran the show. The ex had custody of our son. I had visitation every other weekend, though I had been essentially a single parent since the day our son was born. The ex had literally NEVER changed a diaper, prepared or fed him a bottle, or anything else. He would stay with our son if I wanted to take an evening class, after work, but I had to do the bathing, feeding, and putting-to-bed.

He wanted custody because he could not afford child support, though I did not want or need it. I had a good job, though he made three or four times as much.

I went back to court, requested some modifications to the settlement, and the ex was VERY angry. I remember him saying, "You think you'll see more of [son]. But you won't. I won't comply, and I know you can't afford to take me back to court again." And that was pretty much what he did.

But when son graduated from high school, he could - and did - rent a U-Haul and moved from Louisiana to NM. That was more than 20 years ago. He lived with me and current DH for a while, and then was out on his own.

He sees the ex now and again, but they aren't close. I've told before, in another thread, how much fun we had - son, his two daughters, and I - going out for a birthday lunch to celebrate the birthdays of the two girls, which are only ten days apart.

The ex barely knows his granddaughters.

By all means, get an attorney. The attorney has no emotional investment. He or she is your hired gladiator or gunslinger, out there to fight for you.

Good luck. It's no picnic, but you'll survive.

Later, when I was on my own,

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Posted by: scoates ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 05:16PM

I tried to stay at my parents but she told them I was suicidal and that I attacked her. They stole my car keys and I had to call the cops to get them back. I’m not welcome there anymore.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 06:57PM

Go back home. Sleep in your own bed. It's YOUR house, too. Your wife does not get all the say. If she's that level of unhappy, *she* can leave. As others have stated, you may lose important rights if you don't go back home immediately. And lawyer up. If you own your home, you can use whatever equity you have to pay the lawyer. It will be money well spent.

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Posted by: Recovered Molly Mo ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 07:58PM

*Consult a lawyer asap. If you can not afford to retain one, go to your local courthouse first thing in the morning it is open and see what free legal aid is available.

*Take your spouse off all credit cards. Open a separate banking account for your employment checks. Keep the joint account separate to pay household needs.

*If you own a house. Make sure you keep paying the house payment and keep meticulous records of said payments. You are owner of half that house. Glad to see you are heading back, because leaving could be seen as abandonment in your state.

*Spend time with your kids together and individually. Show them you are still a loving and dependable parent.

No matter what remember they come first and do not bad mouth their other parent in anyway.

*Join a divorce support group. Search online in your area. You will find others that can give you emotional support and exchange ideas and resources available in your area.

*Divorce is expensive, emotionally taxing, and hard on the family. If there is something to salvage that is worth saving..reconsider and discuss it with her. Know your dealbreakers. You should be accepted for who you are, but if not, divorce is not the end of the world. You will find a new and happy normal in time.

One day at a time,
RMM

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Posted by: tumwater ( )
Date: August 24, 2018 10:47PM

Enough people have recommended that you lawyer up and get yourself back into your home, yet you seem to be reluctant to take their advice.

So if you feel you're getting screwed now, you don't have a clue of the screwing that's coming your way if you continue on the course you seem to be insisting is the only way to handle your situation.

Good luck, may peace be with you.

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Posted by: exminion ( )
Date: August 25, 2018 06:30AM

You have some good practical advice, here.

I suspect that your wife has found someone else. That person, or the bishop, and most likely your own parents are helping her, and advising her what to do. Her strength is coming from them. You need people on your side, such as an attorney, the police, friends and relatives. Above all, keep your children on your side.

Emotionally, you will do better in the long run, if you get all the FACTS, right now! Find out who the other man is. In order to deal with things, you need to know exactly what you are dealing with. Don't let your hurt feelings make you weak and vulnerable.

My divorce attorney says that people often use their children as weapons, and bargaining tools. I'm so sorry, Catnip, for what happened to you! It was all about money. When this happened to me, my attorney said my ex was bluffing, and that he wasn't interested in having custody of the kids. My attorney knew right away my ex was a scum-bag. After he abandoned us, he didn't contact the kids for 5 years, and by then he was just a stranger. In the past 20 years, he's seen them only a few times, because my kids made the effort to go see him. My ex had another woman--many women throughout our marriage, and I knew nothing. Because I didn't have all the facts, I accepted too much of the blame for my divorce.

Shame on your parents for taking sides against you. I also think this is a money thing, as well as a religion thing. If you had a big salary, she would not be divorcing you--am I right?

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Posted by: midwestanon ( )
Date: August 25, 2018 10:49AM

Ignore everything Free Man says. He’s a mysogynistic fuck who thinks all women are out to get him, get off on withholding sex, and paints all women with the same sexist brush based on his narrative of events that have transpired in his life. The idea that violence against men, perpetrated by women compares in severity or frequency to men-on-women violence would be laughable if it weren’t so horribly wrong and awful.

Do what others suggssted. Stay in your home. Sleep on the couch. If no reconciliation is possible, take steps to prepare yourself financially and protect your access to your children. Your home and your children are paramount concerns. If you have to, fight for what is rightfully yours.


I am not a parent and can only imagine the heartache or being legally denied access to your children except on weekends and holidays. It sounds hellish.

Given the current state of your marriage as you’ve described it, separation sounds like what is best for your children. I believe that studies have concluded that the ‘Stay Together for the Kids’ mindset often does more damage than divorce and two parent homes.

Remember, you deserve someone who won’t prioritize their cult and religious dogma over their marriage. Hold onto this thought.

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Posted by: AnonXXXL ( )
Date: August 25, 2018 03:33PM

To quote Eric K (hope he doesn't mind):

"Abusive or insulting language has no place here. Unfortunately we are hearing it in the political realm and it seems to be affecting us in other areas of our lives. Abusive language is the last resort of one who cannot come up with a coherent argument or a cogent point in a discussion. Kindness is what is changes peoples minds. A cudgel rarely affects someone's worldview. There are many great folks here who are passionate about helping others. It is a small minority who cause disruptions."

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Posted by: doyle18 ( )
Date: August 25, 2018 12:56PM

I also think the first thing you need to do is lawyer up and get back in your house.

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Posted by: pay-me-first ( )
Date: August 25, 2018 01:28PM

scoates Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just got [drop] kicked in my home [recently] for not
> being [stupid] LDS (enough).
>
> Even if you don’t have any useful advice, I
> could use someone who understands to talk to... and
> maybe vent a little...

Useful advice. Need more info...

Talk to me

> Edit: Thanks everyone. I’ve looked into
> abandonment. I felt like leaving seemed more
> mature than standing my ground in the house, but
> I’m heading back tonight and we’ll resolve
> things by calling the cops if that’s her desire.

What did you call them?
Was it her choice?
What are you doing?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 25, 2018 01:52PM

Sure, maybe 85% of the time putting yourself in the hands of an attorney is a good step...

Divorce attorneys probably don't choose their specialty because they have an aching need to help people. "Making a good living" is much more likely to be the motivation.

Divorce, or dissolution of marriage, is about freedom. But it is the rare exception when BOTH sides gain complete freedom. Especially when children are involved.

Now... In the OP's case, we only have a few established facts:

1. He's not as mormon as she is
2. They are barely able to make their house payments each month
3. He wants to be involved in his kids' lives
4. He can go "zero to 60" pretty quickly
5. His parents had no problem siding against him

We can infer that his patience is easily strained. And we can also infer that his parents are TBM.

What we don't know is whether his wife works. We don't know what state he lives in.

Economic pressure is high. Unless his credit is good and he's not already carrying a lot of credit card debit, he's going to have a problem coming up with the 'deposit' an attorney is going to want. He might get that oft-reported 'free consultation', but that consultation is as much about the attorney figuring out how much can be charged as it is about roughing out possible courses of action.

If he can't come up with the deposit, how does she? Because people will be helping her, that poor, poor victim!

So worst case scenario, he gets served and has to file responsive paperwork, and has to figure out where to lie and where not to lie. (Everybody obfusticates!)

There can be more paperwork shuttling back and forth between where the OP is camping out and her attorney's office, all designed to pin down the issues that will remain in dispute, like custody (her trying to get him aced out of his 50% time with the kids), child support (usually a plug-in-the-numbers formula), and spousal support, assuming her attorney figures she can qualify. This last figure is, again, a plug in the numbers formula.

The more the OP's financial status is an open book, the less her opportunities to 'grandstand' in hopes of getting more money. If all he has is his salary, obviously she can only get a certain percentage of it.

The OP may not really need an attorney. And certainly, he would probably be better off, given what we know, if he didn't incur further debt.

He can probably puzzle out the proper responses in the paperwork they have to exchange, and he will likely be able to show up for any hearings. And in these hearings, the fact that he is appearing in pro per (as his own attorney) will probably be taken into account by the judge. Keeping one's calm, despite provocation, is the name of the game. Despite the lack of an attorney, the judge WILL let the unrepresented party get his or her say in! One must stay calm, look composed, and keep smiling. When the lies are being spouted, one must keep one's composure and then offer balanced rebuttal. Haranguing the court about what a bitch the petitioner is does not really help.

Because much of the money issues are decided by formula if income is steady and the amount is undisputed, paying an attorney to sit beside you and the judge does the math is a waste of money. Same with spousal support. If she qualifies, it's done by a formula; no attorneys needed.

It's in the custody arena where having a guide might be useful, but if she's got more liars then you do, guess who wins? And then there's all the rigmarole of counselor and psychologists interviewing the parents and kids. Lots of well-paid make-work that churns up time and money that both sides try to rig.


Time will pass, the kids will grow up and in 40, 50 years the OP's personal habits will have done most of the work in establishing his and the kids' relationships. The divorce will have been just a little tear in the tapestry of their lives.

(Written & produced by CBSsports, in conjunction with Friar Judic West Enterprises and The Truth, Inc.)

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