Even when I was a TBM, born and bred in the church, I was always baffled by the story of Joseph Smith refusing to drink alcohol before having surgery performed on his infected leg. I never quite understoop the point of the story, given 1) that alcohol was an anaesthetic prescribed by a competent physician, and 2) the Word of Wisdom wouldn't be revealed for another 30 years or so, and wouldn't become compulsory for another 100. Joseph used alcohol himself, as even most TBM's know. So what on earth are they hoping to teach by repeating this story over and over?

It's just more Joseph Smith worship. That's all. Putting him on a pedestal.

Oh wait...

J Smith drank, smoked, chewed, etc. before the WoW. It only came out after Emma complained about the mess left in the house after church meetings.

Doesn't any know the whole story, or is this just more folk lore told by the morg?

I think the story is made up by the church. It is a lie if you ask me. Old Joe was a smoker and drinker the whole time he was a prophet. So were all the other prophets till about 1910.

I agree that it probably was a lie. I just don't understand the point of the story. Even if it's true, so what? There's no moral lesson to be learned from it. The story might as well have gone "Joseph preferred pancakes to waffles" and would have had as much relevance.

I am alomost positive that Fawn Brodie,"No Man Knows My History". mentions it as if it actually happened.Yeah-I just found it on page 8.She tells it exactly as we all heard it. Does that mean it's true? It's very hard to believe a young child could go through that with such maturity.

It would be equally hard for a small child to drink hard liquor. I just don't see the point of the story either.

Todd Comptons, "In Sacred Loneliness" recounts one of the polygamous wives diaries. An entry goes along the lines of "Enjoyed a bottle of wine with Joseph before a heavenly shag" more or less.

The WoW was just keeping up with the current 'Joneses' in terms of abstinence groups that were the current rage at the time as opposed to the Hinckley Mythos, "It was REVOLUTIONARY doctrine..etc."

Then Emma, being pissed at the drinking and chewing in the house threw out her 2 cents, "You need to ask the Lord about drinking and smoking (The 1800's equivalent of the Xbox 360). Then a participant who heard the comment, threw back, "Then drop the coffee and tea also!" (the 1800's equivalent of shopping at GAP for the women).

So Joseph pulled the whole, "Oh yeah! I'll show you BOTH! They are ALL off the table." Yet the day after the WoW was preached to the people Joseph went around town with a Cigar in his mouth the next day to get the point across, "It's solid counsel...not bloody hellfire commandment..."

I used to point out to TBM that the WoW was not a commandment but a suggestion. The preface to D&C 89 said that it was not given by commandment, if I'm correct since I don't have a copy readily available.

Just throwing that out there.

It portrays him as a role model, and the WofW as sacrosanct. It shows how pious, and good he was even as a boy, destined to be a profit, and especially to endure such pain in order to make a "righteous" choice. If he could live the "commandments" at risk of agony, then children today should easily emulate him. The suffering, and resisting temptation make him look jeezus-like, bearing his cross, etc.

Of course I don't believe he was pious or good or a profit, and this is only myth-making since he drank.

My grand dad drank alcohol and my grand mother drank tea (she was British). Both were very active in the church. My dad told me in the part of idaho they lived in the church just didn't enforce the Word of Wisdom until after World War II. He remembers their bishop being released from his calling because some authorities from Salt Lake disapproved of his use of tobacco.

and one scoutmaster assistant who smoked. One scoutmaster assistant who drank coffee. This, in the Monument Park 1st Ward when I was young. Different now. Mormon Nazis now.

There is plenty of evidence that JS Sr had to move so much because his farming and enterprise activities were always disrupted by his drinking. Yes, he was a drunk.

It sounds more plausible to me that as a little kid, he was resolved to not add to the misery that the drink had caused his family. As he grew, this resolve lessened.

The story is in the book "Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith" and is according to JS mother Lucy Mack Smith. My opinion is that it is highly suspicious and not true. She was I think like 65 when she told the story. Here it is.

"The principal surgeon, after a moment's conversation, ordered cords to be brought to bind Joseph fast to a bedstead; but to this Joseph objected. The doctor, however, insisted that he must be confined, upon which Joseph said very decidedly, "No, doctor, I will not be bound, for I can bear the operation much better if I have my liberty." "Then," said Dr. Stone, "will you have some brandy?"...

"No," exclaimed Joseph, "I will not touch one particle of liquor, neither will I be tied down; but I will tell you what I will do-I will have my father sit on the bed and hold me in his arms, and then I will do whatever is necessary in order to have the bone taken out." Looking at me, he said, "Mother I want you to leave the room, for I know you cannot bear to suffer so; father can stand it, but you have carried me so much, and watched over me so long, you are almost worn out." Then looking up into my face, his eyes swimming in tears, he continued, "Now, mother, promise me that you will not stay, will you? The Lord will help me, and I shall get through with it." (Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith The Prophet, Lucy Mack Smith)

Notice that JS is 7 at the time. What kind of 7 year old talks like that? I mean did this really happen? It sounds a little too advanced for a 7 year old I personally think. Maybe it did happen, BUT if it did it was only because he was afraid of alchohol at the time because his dad was an alchoholic and he saw what it did to him. I HIGHLY doubt that though.

for his leg surgery:

He was a little kid and they probably tried to force him to drink some nasty, backwoods, unrefined corn liquor. He probably screwed up his face and refused the disgusting hooch. And from that, the story grows in the retelling and a legend is born. Occam's razor and all that.

Strong brandy for someone who had probably never had much to drink yet? Yuck.

Young children raised around a parent's drunkeness often "swear off," not wanting to be like the parent who incurs the wrath and scorn of the non-imbiber.

This may continue for a lifetime for some, and for others they may resort to rebellion during their teen years and given their probable genetics, the outcome is often predictable.

I'm throwing in with skunk puppet. The taste of alcohol is repugnant to kids.

I have some ideas about the reasons JS (supposedly) refused alcohol for this operation. Se my blog post for today at: http://www.skepticalthayne.com/?p=2146

I'm not sure that *most* TBMs know that JS drank alcoholic drinks as a Prophet. Many that I have spoken to believe he only drank *before* the WoW was "revealed", with the rest not thinking he drank at all, because he was a better man than everybody else.

My own theory is that Joe turned down the medical brew because he had better stuff on hand.

I agree with other posters here. If he did refuse the alcohol it was more likely because it tasted nasty. Most kids these days refuse cough syrup unless it is super sweet.

But the story sounds more like a tale that was embellished to help create the myth of Joseph being an extra righteous child. Kind of like the myth about George Washington chopping down the cherry tree.

Yet know TBM ever questions exactly how it could be considered "righteous" to obey a commandment that doesn't exist yet.

The bible says to avoid drunkenness. They probably view it as prescient. The fact that he drank alcohol later in life is not mentioned by the church.

True or not.
I could never figure out why it mattered.
So what. There are thousands of frontier and pioneer stories that are more interesting and inspirational.
Not only that, his mother is telling a story about her favorite child. That alone is suspect. Apparently nobody else in the room thought it was a big enough deal to write about it.

Except that this did not happen on the wild frontier. The area was a well settled area with a plethora of schools, libraries, and bookstores.

Ordinance on the Personal Sale of Liquors.

Section 1. Be it ordained by the City Council of Nauvoo, that the Mayor of the city be and is hereby authorized to sell or give spirits of any quantity as he in his wisdom shall judge to be for the health and comfort or convenience of such travelers or other persons as shall visit his house from time to time.
Passed December 12, 1843.
Joseph Smith, Mayor.
Willard Richards, Recorder. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p.111).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2012 04:50PM by Dave the Atheist.

Follow the Money, not the Word of Wisdom.

I have a good friend/source in Utah who, back in the 1990s, visited with a LDS collector acquaintance of his in the Berkeley, CA, area. This collector of Mormon memorabilia had all kinds of books and documents in his possession, including some protected by a fire-proof safe in which were secured original ZCMI bills of sale to the family of Brigham Young of various and significant supplies of liquor. My friend/source (who is as solid as they come in terms of veracity), personally saw these records and attested to their existence.

--If lurking TBMs here (or others burdened by secret shaky faith syndrome) doubt the reality that the Mormon Church-owned Zion's Cooperative Mercantile Institute actually trafficked in spirituous liquors, take the word of the sixth president of the Mormon Church, Joseph F. Smith, who said the following when he was also president of ZCMI:

“Some of our pretended pious people, a few years ago, were shocked and horrified by seeing the symbol of the All-Seeing Eye and the words 'Holiness to the Lord' in gilt letters over the front of Zion's Cooperative Mercantile Institution.

"Especially was this the case with some of our brethren when they found these letters over the drug department of Z.C.M.I. Why was it? Why some of these pious Mormons found that Z.C.M.I. UNDER THE SYMBOL OF THE ALL-SEEING EYE AND THE SACRED WORDS, 'HOLINESS TO THE LORD,' SOLD TEA AND COFFEE AND TOBACCO and other things possibly that Latter-day Saints ought not to use; and at the drug store, Z.C.M.I. KEPT LIQUORS of various kinds for medicinal purposes.

"It was terribly shocking to some of the Latter-day Saints that UNDER THESE HOLY WORDS LIQUOR SHOULD BE KEPT FOR SALE. Has it injured me, in any sense of the word, because Z.C.M.I. drug store kept LIQUOR for sale? Has it made me a drunkard? Have I been under the necessity of guzzling liquid poison? Have I made myself a sot because liquor was KEPT FOR SALE BY Z.C.M.I.? I am not the worse for it, thank the Lord. And who else is? No one, except those pious Mormons who in open day or under the cover of night would go into the drug store and buy liquor to drink. . . .

"Those who were the most horrified at seeing the All-Seeing Eye and 'Holiness to the Lord' over the front door of Z.C.M.I., I will guarantee are the ONES THAT HAVE BOUGHT THE MOST TEA AND COFFEE, TOBACCO AND WHISKEY THERE. . . .

"It does not matter to me how much tea and coffee Z.C.M.I. sells, so long as I do not buy it. If I do not drink it, am I not all right? And if the poor creature that wants it can get it there, that ought to satisfy him. IF HE COULD NOT GET IT THERE, HE WOULD NOT PATRONIZE Z.C.M.I. AT ALL, BUT WOULD GO SOME WHERE ELSE TO DEAL.”

("Conference Report," April 1898, p. 11, quoted under the headline, "Joseph F. Smith Justifies the Sale of Coffee, Tea and Liquor at the Mormon Store ZCMI (He was president of ZCMI when he said this)," at "Drinkin' & Smokin' Prophets," http://www.realmormonhistory.com/smoking,.htm, emphasis added)


--Further confirmation that the Mormon Church deliberately trafficked in consumptive alcoholic beverages through its wholly-owned ZCMI is confirmed below.

In 1908, the "Salt Lake Tribune" fingered the LDS Church for doing business in booze:

". . . [T]he Mormon priesthood . . . resisted to the utmost the establishment of liquor houses by Gentiles here for a good while, not because they were liquor houses but because the Gentiles were getting the trade. . . .

"This fierce effort to retain the liquor traffic here as a monopoly of the Church was quite in accord with the present status of affairs here where the church is running the biggest liquor business in the state, through its Z.C.M.I. drug store and also through the big liquor business done by Apostle Smoot in his drug store at Provo. . . .

"By means of auxiliary companies like the Z.C.M.I. drug company they maintain a huge liquor trade for the benefit of the Church hierarchs and the trustee-in-trust for the Church, and at the same time claim to be special advocates of the temperance cause; and while taking the tremendous profits of that trade, throw up their hands in horror at the idea of people spending so much money for liquor . . . . denying all responsibility for it, while at the same time pocketing the profits and getting away with the rewards."

("Salt Lake Tribune," 14 July 1908)


--Joseph F. Smith, while president of the Church, was, in fact, identified as the president of ZCMI during the time it was in the business of selling alcohol to its patrons. Congressional testimony, given under oath during hearings associated with the Reed Smoot case, makes this clear, as admitted by ZCMI's own sales manager. From the testimonial record:

"Mr. Carlisle: You are traffic manager of the Zion Cooperative Mercantile Institution, I believe?'

"Mr. Love: 'Yes, sir.'

"Mr. Carlisle: 'Does it not deal in liquors?'

"Mr. Love: 'It does.'

"Mr. Carlisle: 'Who is the President of that concern?'

"Mr. Love: 'Joseph F. Smith."

("Reed Smoot Case," vol. 4, pp. 318-19)


--Jerald and Sandra Tanner, writing in their book "The Changing World of Mormonism," note the blatant two-faced faithlessness of it all:

"Heber C. Kimball, who was a member of the First Presidency, once claimed that 'virtuous Saints . . . will not sell whiskey, and stick up grogeries, and establish distilleries" ('Journal of Discourses,' vol. 2 p. 161).

"This statement seems very strange when we learn that Joseph Smith sold whiskey in Nauvoo and that Brigham Young built a distillery and sold alcoholic beverages in Utah.

"Even the Mormon-owned Zions Cooperative Mercantile Institution (now known as ZCMI) sold the items forbidden in the Word of Wisdom. On October 7, 1873, George A. Smith, a member of the First Presidency, admitted: 'We are doing a great business in tea, coffee, and tobacco in the Cooperative Store.' ('Journal of Discourses,' vol. 16, p. 238)"

(Jerald and Sandra Tanner, "The Changing World of Mormonism," Chapter 18, "The Word of Wisdom," at: http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech18.htm)


--And now. as a telling aside, we find out that the Hotel Utah's original bar--with all its hard (not "medicinal") liquor--was allowed in by President Joseph F. Smith in order to pay off construction debts. "Thuth saith the Lard (hic!)":

"'The largest and finest bar in the West [was built] in the basement of the Hotel' to pay off a $2 million construction loan. The financing was secured by Presiding Bishop Charles W. Nibley, from New York financier Charles Baruch. But the scheme obviously required the sales of hard liquor. When informed of building a bar, 'President [Joseph F.] Smith went through the ceiling; which was it to be, the word of Wisdom or fiscal soundness?' In the end, President Smith capitulated."

("Joseph Smith Memorial Building," under "History," at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Memorial_Building)
_____


The Mormon Church hypocritically selling booze with forked tongue while claiming to be following their God's Word of Wisdom?

And all in the name of beating non-Mormon Gentiles at their own game?

Anyone want to drink to that?

Steve was that the same logic with the church owned brothels? If you couldn't get a prostitute operating beneath the symbol of the all seeing eye, you might go some where else, and get one that operated under some less holy symbol?