My home teachers just left. We had a spirited discussion about gays. It was basically me against 2 HTs and DH on the subject.

Of course the senior HT basically repeated Packer's recent talk about how God wouldn't make anyone be born gay.

I know plenty of gay people who have told me they were born this way. Why would they lie? Since I'm not gay I can't pretend like I know why people are gay. If they say they were born that way, I believe them. My HT acted like he had all the answers. Ugh!

I asked why God would allow people to be born with no sex organs or even both. Of course they could not answer that question. We kept it civil, but I was disgusted by how they talked. It was so anti-gay and mean of them to say some of the things they did. I compared it to blacks and civil rights, but of course I was wrong and it's nothing like that. "It's a moral issue"

He also said that pornography is the jumping off point for gays and get this...serial killers and molesters! Really? I couldn't believe he would even lump them in the same category!

It was just so frustrating!

I personally don't agree with homosexuality, but I still think they deserve the same rights and freedoms (especially the freedom of persecution). Jesus loved everyone...shouldn't we?

or genetically male females (who are sterile), or (as you pointed out) ambiguously gendered, or born with AIDS, Syphillis and other STDs that threaten or end their lives -- who REALLY thinks that "God" wouldn't make anyone born homosexual? That's just about the most stupid claim I've heard in a long line of stupid Mormon claims.

Of course the claim that they're "led by revelation" will always be the ultimate in their stupid claims.

Or stillborn, like my nephew. This is a God I want nothing to do with.

Packer was speaking as a man.

speaking as a "man" would be a step up for him.

I appreciate you standing your ground with your TBM HT's. That takes a TON of courage. They don't know what they're talking about.

You said that you believe a homosexual if they tell you they're homosexual. Because why would they lie? Then at the end you said you "personally didn't agree with homosexuality." It was very contradicting. I'm NOT being argumentative, just curious as to what you meant.

What is there to agree with? If WE (yes i've been gay since i was a little boy and known it too...without porn thank you Elder Packer!) say this is all we've ever known and you believe us...how can you not agree with homosexuality?! It doesn't make sense.

I honestly don't have a good rebuttal of why I don't personally agree with homosexuality. All I know is, someone else's sex life is none of my business and I have no right to stand in their way of expressing themselves or exercising basic human rights.

It sounds to me like you are still simply unfamiliar and uncomfortable with the idea as a result of a lifetime of indoctrination. Your lack of "agreement" is simply a question of comfort level. Since you have already accepted it on an intellectual and moral/ethical level, I imagine the emotional level is not far behind.

I'm a gay, and I think I get what exmollymo is saying here. I look at it the way I view polygamy. I don't get it. I would never want to be a part of it. I guess that could be worded as I don't "agree" with it, but I don't think I or anyone has the right to tell consenting adults that they can't live and love in whatever manner they see fit. Is that the gist of it? Or is there something else to why you don't agree? Also, you sound very open and tolerant, so 'Agree' just might not be the best word choice when speaking on the subject.

Hmmm...at first i was going to say "good point" but then i realized polygamy IS a choice. Being gay isn't. So it's kind of not the same thing!!!

Aye, it's not the same thing at all. But to be fair, who you love is not a choice. And if you're in love with three different women and they're all cool with you loving them back as a group, then how much different is it to deny the way you feel and what makes you happy in regards to polygamy as opposed to homosexuality? And if we're gonna get into the whole "It's a choice" thing, then where does that leave all the bisexuals? They totally have a choice. Does that mean they should have to live hetero lifestyles just because it's more normal?

I was hoping you would insult the hell out of her...but alas you have proven to be a sane thinking person [I jest]!

AWWW shucks!

Ok seriously this is an awesome response to difficult situation for all parties involved.

Growing up in an environment of "AIDS is the cure for the gay plague" it's really easy to be rational to comments like, "I don't agree with homosexuality"

Just sayin...

I did not mean to cause a ruckus exmollymo! I just wanted to try to understand where you were coming from. I am ecstatic that you stood up for it with your HT's. (I don't know ANY mormon's that would dare do that, i can tell from your other postings YOU HAVE SOME GUTS! *clap*)

I can see Pita's point as it being a lifetime of indoctrination, which has caused some confusion as you're trying to distinguish what you YOURSELF believe apart from what you've been TOLD to believe. Because as you said, you do accept homosexuals as they are and do believe they have every right to live their life as who they are, with human rights, etc. So in essence you do agree with homosexuality, but maybe just haven't gotten yourself to actually admit that yet, which is fine. Getting out of what we've been taught in the church is quite a journey.

I like you exmollymo! Consider me your first gay friend! (assuming you don't have any yet)

You're not my first gay friend, but I'm happy to add you to my list.

My very best friend from high school (and friend of 16 years) came out to me about 5 years ago. I even named my daughter after this friend. She was by my side (along with DH) when I gave birth to my first child. I don't consider her a best friend anymore, but still a very good one. We live far apart and live very different lives. The hetero/home is only a tiny factor in that. I just told her a few days ago about my disaffection from the church. We have a few mutual TBM friends, but she can keep a secret. I'm in the closet, so to speak (except to a very small circle of friends), so she gets where I'm coming from.

I also have a gay step brother, and a gay nephew. The gay nephew hasn't come out to my family yet, but I think it's because we're "Mormon".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2011 10:24PM by exmollymo.

If you listen to gays of my generation talk about their coming out story, they will almost always talk about a variation "when I figured out I was gay". They will almost always admit that when they looked back, they had lots of clues before they figured it out. It's not the quite the same for the current generation that sees lots of openly gay characters, they can figure it out faster.

BTW, exmollymo, you say you "don't agree with homosexuality", does that apply to all 1500 animal species that has members that exhibit homosexual behavior, or just the humans?

That's true, many animal species are homosexual, just like humans. Penguins, giraffes, apes, vultures, seagulls, ducks, tigers, cats... I wonder why the church doesn't say anything about gay animals?

Pecker is an idiot. I can not imagine the damage he has done to LDS people over the years. That "Little Factory" speech should be a great big warning signal for any male considering becoming a convert into TSCC; people born in the faith perhaps don't know any better, but ignorance is no excuse in my books.

Every normal person has planted in his being certain sexual appetites and desires; one of the chief purposes of this mortal probation is to see whether man will bridle these passions and use them only as authorized and approved by Deity.

Mormon Doctrine, Sex Immorality. p.708

The words of current profits outweigh the words of previous profits. The lord tells us not to dwell on these things, dear. It says in the scriptures that homosexuality is bad. Therefore it is true that homosexuality is bad. We know this because we have a testimony of the truth of the scriptures. Why? Because it says they're true. In the scriptures.

Blah, blah, blah..

"It's a moral issue."

The arguments used against interracial marriage were.. moral arguments. Anti-misogyny laws were to prevent "immoral" marriages. The arguments about blacks (not) holding the priesthood were supposedly from god, which the "moral" camp seems to hold copyright on.

It took me some time to transition from TBM stance on homosexuality to where I'm at today.

At one point I would have said, "I personally don't agree with homosexuality, but I still think they deserve the same rights and freedoms (especially the freedom of persecution)" as well. In fact, I'm pretty sure I did for awhile.

However, a shift happened over time to where I didn't say that, but instead started saying things like, "I wouldn't have gay sex, but that's just my sexuality."

I think that one reason why homosexuality has been demonized for so long and been called a "sin" and been so long accepted as a sin is because most people just don't ever have to understand it. We're straight. Completely "normal" to most of us to like the opposite sex, have sex with them, and occasionally fall in love with them.

Sexual orientation is this bizarre paradox where it's both a big deal and also not a big deal depending on what aspects you are looking at.

On the surface, it's just sex with the same gender and for individuals - sex is only one aspect of their lives and who they have sex with is not only no one else's business, but also not a big deal.

Deeper, however, is that sexual orientation is NOT just about sex. It's about all that deep sense of bonding that you can have with your husband that goes beyond just having sex with your husband. The ONLY difference is the gender preference. That's it. Not a big deal. Unless someone either doesn't understand it, or tries to ban homosexuals from being able to not only hump, but LOVE the people they want to love. Then it's a huge deal.

And if you look to the bible for answers about homosexuality, I'll just remind you that the quotes against gays are in the same places as god's hatred for lobsters, footballs, and insistence that women shouldn't be allowed to speak in church.

Just something to think about.

Hi exmollymo,

What's your honest impression of gay men? Since you're anonymous here, I'd really like to understand what you think and feel when you consider gay men. What is it that makes you uncomfortable?

One of my closest friends, Doug Stewart, committed suicide. The conflict of being gay and having been raised in the Mormon culture, which he left but which never left him, proved to be too much. Without the powerful life map of Mormonism, the world that he was thrown into felt something like that of a Camusian novel: bleak, godless, lonely, hostile, absurd. All he wanted was to be in a relationship with the boyfriend of his dreams, but despite everything that he had going for him--high intelligence, great looks, and jaw-dropping creative (especially literary) talent--it wasn't enough.

Doug was larger than life. The most interesting things happened to him. He attracted the most remarkable people and situations. It wasn't because of anything that he consciously did, but resulted naturally from who he was, an incredibly bright and fascinating light of a human being who exemplified courage, adventure, passion, curiosity, and so many other qualities that naturally created a vast audience that orbited around him. Through his life, which he so eloquently captured in a running journal for all to read, others could have powerful, vicarious experiences. And then those of us who knew him knew that the reality was so much greater than even he could ever paint in words. He was an amazing fellow, nothing short of a hero in an epic novel who, like so many literary heroes, dies in the end. But while he lived, he exemplified the celebration of life. He lived a life that so many envied, for all of its unbelievable adventures, which were all the more magical because they actually happened. But in the end, he couldn't find what he wanted most: a life partner. He gave up. I don't believe that he would have given up if our society weren't so hostile to gay men and made their lives a living hell through ostracism and overt and covert expressions of unrelenting hatred, hostility, disparagement, and disgust. When you say that you don't "agree" with homosexuality, I wonder if you'd change your mind if you could have known Doug:

http://www.affirmation.org/suicides/douglas_stewart.shtml

Some people can hide their homosexuality. Many can't. The stereotype of effeminate, limp-wristed, lisping males exists for a reason. Although people don't like to talk about this, the medical evidence seems to suggest that homosexuality is, to a large degree, influenced by the fetus's exposure to hormones during prenatal development. Imagine that you drive your car through a car wash, and after several seconds, the water shuts off, and you're forced to drive out. Whatever process normally completes fails to complete, and you're left with what appear like hybrids or individuals that are difficult to categorize. Again, there's a good reason for the stereotype of lesbians as butch females.

What further complicates this is that there doesn't seem to be a single cause of homosexuality, in the same way that there isn't a single cause of a stomach ache, or a fever. It's because the developmental process produces such a vast majority of distinctly recognizable straight males and females that I think we get thrown off when we encounter an anomaly.

What it means to be "gay" isn't clear, either. There's sexual identity (how one identifies oneself), sexual preference (the specific sexual acts that one prefers), sexual behavior (enacted sexual behavior), and sexual fantasies (what arouses one). Sexual identity (or orientation) is a confluence of all of the other factors, and it leads to one's self-concept. We all know about cases where males identify as straight (and really believe themselves to be), while they're aroused exclusively by other males, but married to a female and engage in sex with that female. Some are able to pull this off for an entire lifetime. Others aren't. It depends on the strength of their libidinal urges and their cognitive and emotional flexibility.

But it's even more complicated than that. There are effeminate gay males, and masculine gay males whom you'd have an impossible time telling apart from straight males. There are also effeminate males who are definitively heterosexual. While it's true that stereotypes generally hold, there are exceptions. I point all of this out because sometimes, you really don't know who, around you, might, contrary to appearances, be gay.

In my own view, being gay isn't really about sex. It's mostly about an emotional (i.e. romantic) attraction to members of one's own sex. Lustful heterosexual males have been known to have sex with other lustful heterosexual males for a variety of reasons, none of them romantic. In fact, as high as 10% of heterosexual males have had a male sexual encounter within the past year. Most of them are married. Think about that.

Homosexuality isn't a choice any more than heterosexuality is. What if I said that I didn't personally agree with heterosexuality, but it's none of my business as to how others behave in private? How would you interpret such a statement?

Is my opinion any less important than that of a straight person, just because I'm part of a very small (3%) minority, through no choice or fault of my own?

We've got to escape our prejudices. They not only harm others, but us. Homophobia is a classic example. Can you imagine the absurdity of being afraid of people with brown hair? And yet, that's analogous to being afraid of homosexuals--to not "agreeing." But not agreeing has real-world, often deadly, effects, as Doug's suicide shows. Homophobia alienates us from a subset of our fellow human beings; this hurts them. But it also hurts heterosexuals by depriving them of what could be amazing friendships. Everyone loses. It's the oppression of blacks played out all over again. It's not right.

It's time to come to the table and "agree." To not do so creates the conditions for misery and suicide on an unimaginable scale. Please don't.

Steve

HEY STEVE!! good to "see" you again!! last time i "saw" you was on Postmormon...and it wasnt pretty!! glad to see ya back!! :)
::carry on::

Out of the gay men I know, I really like them. My sister, whom I am very close to, was a surrogate mother for 2 gay men. The experience that she had has really helped me see that gay or straight people can both be great parents. Sometimes I even feel that gay parents are better because they had to go the extra mile to have children. My sister and I joke that we wish our husbands were gay, because then they would have more fashion sense, better personal hygiene, etc. You know the stereo types. They're not a bad thing in my opinion.

I guess you could say I don't agree with homosexuality like I don't agree with polygamy or smoking. If other people want to do those things, fine. It's just not for me. Someone said polygamy is a choice. Sometimes it is, but seeing the inner workings of a cult, I can understand the mind control leaders may have over
some women. Living in the middle of nowhere, financially dependent, multiple kids, lack of education. The wives are stuck!

Back to the gay topic, I treat gays just like I would treat anyone else. I don't walk up to them and say, "hey...I don't agree with you, but you do what you want" I wouldn't say that to anyone, that's just rude. Here on RfM, because it is
anonymous, I feel I can be open. This topic was primarily related to the church and homosexuality...not MY view on it. Who cares what I think? I'm a SAHM with 4 kids to take care of. No one cares what I say. In my day to day life I try to treat everyone fair and with kindness. I also try to go out of my way to show kindness to those who need it most.

My family volunteers at a homeless shelter regularly. There are
quite a few gay people that live there that we interact with on a regular basis. I treat them as human beings...not as gay people!

I'm sorry that you lost a very special and wonderful person in your life. The pain of loss, especially unnecessary loss is very hard. I lost both of my parents last year, I was 29. Death is never an easy thing to deal with. I have also had the pain of suicide rip through my family. It is never easy and I have learned that time doesn't heal all wounds. Sometimes we just have to deal with that open pain in our hearts for a long time.

As I have matured I have learned to focus on loving others and treating them with kindness. We don't know how long anyone will be with us. As I am leaving Mormonism, I am just now learning to truly think for myself. I am a work in progress and that's where I will leave it.

Have a great day!

"I don't understand HOW they can prefer their own gender (because I find it repugnant) but I understand that they do and they're different from me."

If I'm grasping your meaning right I have to say that I understand completely. First of all, I feel the same way about both homosexuality and about eating mushrooms -- don't get the attraction AT ALL -- but hey, if it makes someone else happy I say go for it.

Polygamy, by the way, is NOT a valid comparison to homosexuality. It really is a choice whether or not to have multiple life partners. You're right that most women who practice polygyny have had their "choice" abrograted by indoctrination but it IS something they choose to do and in most cases, they are chosing to do so over their natural inclinations. In fact, polygamy and a homosexual attempting to live life as a heterosexual is probably a more accurate comparison.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2011 01:33AM by exmollymo.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2011 01:32AM by exmollymo.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2011 01:34AM by exmollymo.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2011 01:34AM by exmollymo.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2011 01:31AM by exmollymo.

Even when I *was* a TBM, I disagreed with the GAs about Homosexuality.

If I know that *I* was born hetrosexual, instead of it being a choice, then why would I think homosexuality is any different or that it's some sort of sinful choice or the result of sinful actions? And what sort of cruel god would actually want a homosexual person to live their whole life without romantic love? How would that make sense? Oh wait, I forgot, TSCC doesn't make sense...that's why I left. ;-) hehe

when you realize that it's all about forging a common enemy to draw people together. And, of course, you need a group of people to be "less than" the sinful sheep so they can feel good about themselves even as you are browbeating them for their failure to measure up. It's also part of the "man is here that he may suffer and prove himself to his big bully of a God" theology.

I guess these asshats have never heard of someone being born with both sex organs.

This issue when it occured required the Stake President to pray and tell you what sex the child was supposed to be (talk about arrogance) and you were forced to accept his decision. You had no say and made no decisions, (only your holy priestood leader through discernment could do this) even though it was your child. This is still the way this issue is resolved.

NOW, the church wants to tell you that "God wouldn't make somebody that way?" Please explain to me why God would create someone with both sexes? That's a little confusing, isn't it? And if someone could be made with both sexes, couldn't someone be born gay? I think the answer here would be, Yes.

It's very simple: The mormon church's structure does not allow for gays, therefore they can't be allowed to exist. Therefore they are wicked and evil. So they eliminate them because this is the Church of hate, not the church of love and compassion.

Mormon God doesn't want people to be fat either but when was the last time you heard a conference talk, or a home teaching message about the evils of excess blubber?

And you won't, not whilst there is a fat Prophet in charge at any rate.

I don't agree with the way blond haired people or those shorter than 5 foot 2 inches look and I sometimes tell them that, but I DO accept them and try not to be critical. And don't even get me started on those with green eyes. That one I have a really hard time with. When I see a green-eyed person, I usually turn and walk the other direction. I don't agree at all with their eye color. I try not to treat them differently, but sometimes it's really hard. I'm still undecided if they should get all of the benefits that brown-eyed people get though. That still bothers me a little.

Thank you Moroni!!!! That was too good. I was born this way.