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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 09:00PM

The cousin I stayed with during my brother's funeral earlier this month. She had not met his wife before going with me to his viewing on the weekend preceding the funeral. She had a very bad first impression of my SIL, and it wasn't because she was in grieving. It was a raw first impression that was rather astute given my knowledge of her over the years.

My brother was in relatively good health when he unexpectedly died early in the morning. My SIL could hear his labored breathing through the walls from her bedroom to his, based on what we've been told. By the time paramedics could get there he was already gone.

Strangely, her half-sister was staying with them up to the day before my brother died. She moved out, and the day he died she moved back in.

Their house has been on the market for going on three months now. They're asking quite a lot of money for it. When it's sold, SIL will take all. He worked all his life to support her and his family. Now all his future dreams are for naught.

Hence, my cousin was wondering especially after she saw my SIL at brother's funeral. She told me there was just something about it that didn't feel right. My SIL walked in with much anger, and a black spot on her heart, as my cousin described.

My cousin had lost her husband just one week before my brother died, but for known reasons. He had been in poor health for some time. My brother although had some health issues, was not imminently ill. Nor was an autopsy done to determine the cause of death. They ruled it "natural causes" at 63. Cousin wanted me to play detective at his funeral, but I just couldn't. He was and is still, my brother whom I was in mourning for. My TBM in-laws do seem strange to me, but I wasn't looking at it as a murder mystery. That is, not before my cousin's suspicions became aroused.

It may be something that we'll never know for sure one way or the other.

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 09:12PM

Just from your description of things at the time, I was wondering the same thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2018 09:14PM by kathleen.

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 09:16PM

Have you gotten a copy of the coroner’s repot?

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 09:18PM

No I haven't. Would they release that to his sister?

I'm not his nearest next-of-kin. His wife is. Hadn't considered that I might be able to obtain a copy. I may look into that this coming week.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 09:25PM

I just checked online for vital stats for his state. It says to wait at least 30 days to request a copy of death certificate. It isn't ready yet. :)

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 09:27PM

You said there was no autopsy... Therefore no Coroner’s report.

It appears you can only go by the death certificate, which will be signed by the doctor who "officially" pronounced him dead.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 09:30PM

Coroners rule on the cause of death in my home state with or without an autopsy. I know because that happened for my dad. In fact, the coroner overrode the physician's report without an autopsy pronouncing the cause of death.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2018 09:30PM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 09:34PM

But without an autopsy, it isnt as accurate

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 09:47PM

His family didn't request one. If there was any kind of foul play we'll never know. He appeared to have just stopped breathing based on what we've been told.

I rather doubt my SIL would've done anything so awful. He doted on her for the duration of their long marriage. Now she has no one to dote on her. I don't know how she's going to get by - he did it all. He took care of the home, the job, the kids, you name it. For forty years.

If it wasn't for my cousin wondering, I don't think I'd have entertained the thought much, if any.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 09:59PM

People die suddenly all the time My two year old nephew died in his sleep. He was a healthy kid and the autopsy showed nothing. His heart just stopped.At you brother's age, it is fairly common

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 10:05PM

Was your nephew's sudden passing attributed to SIDS?

That doesn't make any sense to me that a healthy toddler would just stop breathing. Unless there was something that had gone undetected.

That's so sad.

Can't imagine the loss for his parents.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 10:24PM

SIDS is almost non existent after 12 months. He was two years and seven months. He mmay have had a heart rhythm problem. That doesnt show up in an autopsy, but that is just a guess.

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Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 04:24PM

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SIDS is almost non existent after 12 months. He
> was two years and seven months. He mmay have had a
> heart rhythm problem. That doesnt show up in an
> autopsy, but that is just a guess.


He could have had central sleep apnea. It's different from obstructive sleep apnea. In central sleep apnea, the brain just forgets to tell you to breathe.

It's usually outgrown by 12 months, but not always, and it isn't detected until an event occurs, unless they've done a sleep study previously.

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 09:37PM

I obtained a copy of the report on my ex. It’s public record here. And, he had no autopsy.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 09:48PM

Oh, that's good you were able to.

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Posted by: exminion ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 02:46AM

Where we live, death certificates are public record, and anyone can obtain a copy, though they don't say much. I want a copy of my ex-husband's death certificate to frame.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 03:07AM

Hahahaha!!

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 09:01AM

My brother's state charges $80 to get a copy. That seems kind of pricey, but it is what it is.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 10:49AM

I've known of a couple of cases where many thought deaths were from foul play but there was no way to prove it.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 11:53AM

And it is hardly likely that upon receipt of the death certificate that one is going read that the cause of death was 'suspicious' or 'unknown.'

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 01:13PM

Officially, it was an accident. His sister and I think anti-gay kids ran him off the road. He was an excellent driver. The day was clear and dry, but the area was infested with hateful teens who had taunted and threatened him. Not much could be done to prove it because the community was steadfast on the side of the teens and there was no evidence that they were involved.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 01:32PM

A very sad fact about police work, such as in doing the scene analysis following a solo-car accident, is that it is sooooo easy, and tempting, to ignore anything that might lead to something other than the simple, easiest conclusion, such as, in a solo-car accident, looking for points of contact with another vehicle on the accident vehicle, or checking for tire tracks indicative of sudden swerving prior to the point where the accident vehicle leaves the road.

It's always tempting to take the easy way out, no matter the job or profession.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 12:19PM

It also could be a case of "when you hear hoof beats think horses, not zebras."

Healthy, 40 year-old distance runners have had heart attacks. The coroner would have checked for anything obvious such as petechial hemorrhaging in the eyes or skin, or indications of poisoning such as skin discoloration, blistering, or foul odor on the breath. Then he would have considered your brother's age, medications, and overall health, along with your sister-in-law's report of how and when he died. Did your brother have any risk factors for heart disease such as excess weight, hypertension, stress, poor diet, cholesterol issues, lack of exercise, etc.? Or a history of heart disease in the family? Could he have had a fatal stroke or a cerebral hemorrhage?

My guess is that the coroner added up all the facts and came to a not-unreasonable conclusion.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 02:35PM

It's also true if there was foul play, we'll never know.

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Posted by: StillAnon ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 02:57PM

I don't know, maybe I've watched too much NYPD Blue and Law & Order. But, if you have genuine concerns, get together and make an appointment with a police supervisor- Captain or higher, and lay it all out in a precise, non-emotional manner. Unless he was cremated, they can still do an autopsy if there is reasonable suspicion.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 03:04PM

I'm barely on civil terms with my SIL as it is. If I were to do such a thing we'd be mortal enemies. They lived in a very small town rural environment. So even a tiny ripple in the police force there would make a great big splash all over the town gossip circuit. I don't want to create any trouble for them based on a misgiving. If I hear of any evidence or proof beyond a 'doubt' then I may raise it to the police dept. They're reluctant to take on any such work also due to the cost of investigations without more than mere suspicion.

I'll just give it a pass. It just seems strange that he checked out while they have their nearly half a million dollar home listed for sale. It would've been his retirement nest egg, and hers.

Now it's all hers. And however she decides to allocate it among their large brood.

I wish them well. They lost the most stabilizing force in their family when my brother died. Now I really worry for them, because his wife was always very unstable. He was the rock of the family.

She was literally falling apart since his death. I hope she picks the pieces up from her shattered world, and worry that some of her children may try to exploit her estate at the expense of other siblings. Plus her half-sister who just happened to move in, then move out the day before bro died, then moved back in the day after he died. That just looks weird on its face.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2018 03:14PM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: StillAnon ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 03:14PM

I don't know. If I had a nagging suspicion, I'd go talk to the cops. Your SIL won't know. Unless it leads to an exhumation. You don't have much of a relationship to ruin. But, you could keep her from getting away with murder. The longer you wait, the more difficult it will be.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 03:26PM

Maybe I could ask my cousin to since she was the one who raised the suspicion to begin with. She lives closer to them than I do, and would have more access to local law enforcement.

Knowing her she'll defer to me, lol. And I don't want to be the fall guy unless I'm more certain than not. I honestly don't know ... it is a nagging doubt though.

My brother isn't the first person to die in their home. SIL's parents (mom and step-dad) died there some years ago when they were dying from cancer. They lived with my brother and SIL for years before they became ill and died. When they got sick they languished for awhile until my brother and SIL decided to let them die the native Indian way of withholding water and food ... so they dehydrated and starved to death possibly instead of dying from cancer.

I mention that because my dad stayed at my brother's for a short time while he was convalescing from a mere back injury that was non-life threatening. They were using the same tactics on him that they did to SIL's parents when they died at their house. By withholding nourishing food and water when he needed it and wasn't able to get it himself. One of my cousins came and rescued dad from their house and moved him into her house for the duration of his back injury. She treated him like a KING. He was her last living uncle (my dad and her dad were brothers.) The difference was not only night and day, it saved my dad's life to get away from my brother's. So, I do question the quality of care even my brother may have been getting assuming he was languishing at all, and what reasoning went into waiting to call EMT by the time they were called, it was already too late to revive him.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 03:57PM

Your brother at least deserves a full autopsy to honor his passing as above board. Because there is a sinister side to Mormon thinking that will abide cold blooded murder. That is well established in the psychological literature. It’s incumbent to bring the full power of the state to perform due diligence. First of all to sanctify the state in its existence, and second of all to keep other people from getting hurt. Criminals do not stop themselves. Murder is a special kind of crime that simply cannot be tolerated. If the camps taught you anything.

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Posted by: StillAnon ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 04:00PM

Well put. Plus, at this point, thinking what she's thinking won't go away with time. It will eat at her that she didn't follow up.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 06:07PM

The people who are "pillars" of their community where brother lived and died are also Mormon. If ever they had a reason to cover up the underside of their belly, what I believe isn't going to make any difference.

To bro and his family I am the "apostate" sister. That's like being marked with the mark of Cain, or being a Lamanite to their Nephite. I know it's all absurd, but in their world men are still gods in embryo, and the Book of Mormon is the Holy Grail.

He was given a traditional Mormon sendoff by the people of his community at his funeral. It was their stake house and ward house where it was held, and they opened the doors to the gymnasium with full seating arranged there in addition to the pews. In a tiny rural country town, I would not have believed it with my own eyes but that place filled up.

Even the stake president and his assistant stake president presided at his funeral. The bishop delivered a eulogy, but I don't recall a funeral where the stake hierarchy showed up for an elder's funeral. Maybe it's routine, I dunno. The last one I went to was my paternal grandfather's. The church was overflowing then also. My dad's was held at a funeral home, and we were able to bypass the Mormon fanfare.

The Mormons are as clannish as they come. You know that, Babylon.

Bro's in-laws when they were still alive and living with him and SIL would tell me things like they were planning for Armageddon. They wanted me to come live with them to buttress their forces against the enemy (whoever that is.) How there is "safety in numbers," yada yada. They sounded like they'd been listening to the militant white militia groups that were networking throughout that area at the time. They were literally fearing for their lives - until dying from cancer.

I feel really bad for them they didn't get to live long enough to see Armageddon ... for them perhaps it was a blessing in disguise. I could've told them it was nonsense, but I didn't have the heart to disrespect my SIL's mother. She really believed in that stuff.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 03:21PM

That was my point with the story of my nephew. I have known of several other cases where people diedbsuddenly with no warning. In several cases they were young and apparently healthy.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 12:54PM

Those that live by LDS shall die by LDS.

Amyjo, your life is one big game of Clue. Ugh, so Yiddish. (((Hugs))).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2018 03:39PM by babyloncansuckit.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 03:54PM

If only you knew my uncle, the Ashkenazi one.

He went to the dark side when he reinvented himself from a mechanical engineer into a con artist. He looted my hometown banks in upstate New York six months after taking my children on a two week vacation throughout our region, unbeknownst to us. Until we (just us,) were the only ones to identify him from Crimestoppers a month after he committed the heist. If that isn't blankety blank crazy, I don't know what is! (Life is stranger than fiction.)

My therapist has told me in his more than 40 years of treating clients my life experiences are the most unique of all his patients. He has encouraged me to write my life memoirs. I laughed because they're so zany, if they hadn't happen to me I wouldn't have believed them. My con artist's uncle's daughter wrote her life memoirs a decade ago, and labeled it fiction. (seriously!) She described how crazy her life was growing up with her power couple parents. It was beyond crazy. My uncle has a Jekyll and Hyde personality.

The closest I've gotten to writing my life story are the blurbs I've written like here on RfM and elsewhere online.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2018 03:56PM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: Anon 3 ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 08:33PM

Sudden hard breathing and then death? Heart attack. Wondering more about it just increases the pain. I had heart pain and they put me on a month of heart recording. I thought I was having heart issues. Was just muscle spasms. Men go for years ignoring heart pain because when they were 20 doctor told them muscle spasms. They could have minor heart attacks for years until the big one at 53...and he never said a word.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: October 01, 2018 04:51PM

I've wondered myself whether he simply worked himself to death?

Last time we visited I asked him when was he going to retire? He really needed to slow down, he's worked very hard his whole life.

Another brother at the funeral told me when they spoke just the weekend before he died, he was going to keep working for as long as he could.

He worked so hard his life through that in itself would wear a person out. When I say he did it all, it's because he took care of both work and home. He shouldered a lot of responsibility and didn't get a lot in return for it.

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