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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 09, 2018 06:26PM

This link below came up when I was searching for something "Mormon." It was a fascinating read in my opinion. The core thesis was this:

"Schrader feels this habit of displaying the miraculous misleads viewers into thinking they can achieve spirituality vicariously, or that watching spiritual events, convincingly rendered in moving pictures, will translate into authentic spiritual history. Rather than seeking a personal spiritual experience—what Schrader calls transcendence—the viewer merely assumes, emotionally, the experiences of the person portrayed and resumes his or her life touched by sentiment, but not by the supernatural. Merely identifying with the sufferings of a cinematic Christ, for example, is insufficient. In such a scenario, asserts Schrader, the film “has not lifted the viewer to Christ’s level,” but rather “has brought Christ down to the viewer’s.” Schrader feels that a spiritual film must lead those watching to “a confrontation,” or encounter, “between the human and the spiritual” on their own and that cinematic spectacle would only serve to interfere with an authentically transcendent experience."
https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/byu-religious-education-student-symposium-2014/hollywood-not-hollywood-cecil-b-demille-paul

Ironically, I thought of Mormon temple attendance. Watching a movie and ritually incanting and gesturing for a 5-10 minute payoff "spiritual experience" in the Kolob Portal makes it so Mormons can relieve themselves of the burden of being spiritual. The Mormons are vicariously Christian. Their spirituality is derived from a movie in a temple for and in behalf of non-existent people. They get all the feel goods of some spirituality with none of the maintenance and responsibility except to dress up, watch a movie, and throwing some hand signs.


Gangster.

I remember sitting in Sunday School or Priesthood and thinking Sister X or Brother X is sooo spiritual but I don't think I would ever want to be like them. Too much work. And it was true. Even if you wanted to climb Kolob's ladder it didn't matter. A few Fast and Testimony tears and you were labeled spiritual.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2018 06:27PM by Elder Berry.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: October 09, 2018 07:15PM

"...authentically transcendent experience..."

That's funny :)

BTW, I don't suppose Schrader offers any methodical, verifiable way to tell this counterfeit kind from the supposed authentic kind, does he? Yeah, I didn't think so.

But I do get your point. I've used it to point out to mormons why their "but I got a warm feeling after I prayed about the book of mormon" testimony isn't at all convincing...

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 10, 2018 11:22AM

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW, I don't suppose Schrader offers any
> methodical, verifiable way to tell this
> counterfeit kind from the supposed authentic kind,
> does he? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Of course not Hie. Silly goose.

I posted this because for some of my life I've been a spiritual seeker. In deconstructing my Mormonism I've tried to mentally compile how "spiritually" damaging Mormonism can be.

For the spiritually inclined Mormonism initially can look like something to investigate. It even has temple "mysteries." But over the course of its existence LDS Corp has done things to temper and dampen its fecundly spiritual roots. I have to qualify that assertion. The people of Mormonism and not the nefarious leaders were speaking in tongues, women were healing, angels were appearing to them, and all of the trappings of a mystically rich life experiences were taking place.

They didn't need DeMille films. They didn't need Gerald Lund books. They didn't need corny children's books and laughable novels and Greg Olsen art. The experience of being a Mormon for them was spiritual. This doesn't make it better just different to me. It has always been a religious kingdom of totalitarian proportion and tiny tyrants. Their first leader and "martyr" was a tyrant. Not many religious martyrs in world history can also claim to have been religious tyrants.

But as Mormonism evolves it becomes a more and more vicarious experience. It is the ultimate lie for religious people. Like Freemasonry is dying Mormonism is evolving. Freemasonry is all about being a fraternity of stuff they don't understand and just do ritually to stay in the club. The people who accuse it of being a religion have never been a mason. I have.

Mormonism claims to be a religion and can evolve into some nihilistic vicariously religious experience with no focus on the individual and no real spiritual experiences.

I don't believe in spirituality as something measurable. It is an aspect of some people's lives. It is like a person describing the feelings of using psychotropic drugs or being a part of a cult or being a member of a tribe of like-minded people. Mormonism as a big and rich corporation can only offer these feelings vicariously. Their leaders are boring and trite. Their experiences are ritualistic and dull. Their spirituality is vicariously derived from their past and acting for dead people.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: October 10, 2018 12:47PM

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormonism claims to be a religion and can evolve
> into some nihilistic vicariously religious
> experience with no focus on the individual and no
> real spiritual experiences.

I get what you're saying, I'm just arguing that given the nebulous, individual, and always-varying definition of "spiritual experience," there really isn't any way to define one experience as "real" and another not. Each is as "real" as an individual decides it is, based on entirely subjective criteria.

BTW, I like how you got "Greg Olsen art" in there :)

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 10, 2018 12:49PM

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Each is as "real" as an
> individual decides it is, based on entirely
> subjective criteria.

Exactly, and Mormonism is trying to reduce this to the point of compliance in raving about temple experiences and "blessings" like it were in the business of entertaining with movies and selling books like "The Secret."

> BTW, I like how you got "Greg Olsen art" in there
> :)

Yep!

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Posted by: Wally Prince ( )
Date: October 11, 2018 02:37AM

[Narration by James Earl Jones, or Barry White, your choice.]

Basically, it's like this....

Let's dim the lights a bit...

Let's light a candle and burn some sandalwood incense...

Now, we are in the right frame of mind to understand what spirituality is...

What is spirituality...it's when something feels so right...even when the evil punk world is telling you that it's wrong...

It's....

It's....


Feelings, nothing more than feelings,
Trying not to forget my feelings of feelings.
Teardrops rolling down on my face, in testimony meetings
Trying not to forget my feelings of spiritu~al~ity.
Feelings, whoa~ whoa~ whoa~
for all my life I'll feel it.

I wish I'd never met you, Joseph Smith; you'll never come again.

Feelings, wo-o-o feelings,
Wo-o-o, feel you again in the temple through the veil.
Feelings, feelings like I've never lost my testimony

And feelings like I've never ever lose it in my heart.
Feelings, for all my life I'll feel it.
I wish I've never met you, Joseph Smith; you'll never come again. And it makes me so saaaaad!
Feelings... whoa~ whoa~ whoa~

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 11, 2018 11:06AM

Love it. Barry White. Does Jones sing?

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Posted by: Wally Prince ( )
Date: October 11, 2018 11:13AM

singing love songs.

But he used to do lots of narration work (I think Morgan Freeman slipped into that niche after Jones retired), so I can easily imagine him setting the mood with his narration and then letting Morris Albert do the singing.

Fwee~ee~ee~eeelings....

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: October 09, 2018 07:30PM

I didn't. It felt what??? Can't think of the right words. Maybe you guys can. Fake doesn't quite fit it. Maybe I'll think of it later.

Anyway, I feel like I've had "spiritual" experiences. No, I don't want to share them. When my dad asked me if I was ever going back, my mom said, "You can be spiritual without being religious." She always considered me her most spiritual child. I tend to have a lot of emotional intelligence for at least people close to me. That is what she considered my spirituality. If I compare those experiences to the temple, the temple falls flat on its face. MOST life experiences are more spiritual than the temple.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2018 07:31PM by cl2.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: October 10, 2018 11:25AM

I get my spirituality by the laying on of hands onto my TV just as the TV preachers tell me to.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 10, 2018 11:28AM

That is really vicarious.

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Posted by: manymoremany ( )
Date: October 11, 2018 12:37AM

Trans Vestiges, Turquoise Vermin or Trellis Vines?

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Posted by: Wally Prince ( )
Date: October 11, 2018 02:25AM

I just kept seeing the naked emperor in all his flabby, farty glory.

The temple was what pushed me over the edge. During all those years of deeply unspiritual meetings, I would frequently hear the adults speak in hushed, reverent tones about the amazing things that could only be learned in the temple.

Well, I thought, that's where all this banality drops off and things really come together. It must be something unimaginably profound. So I had high expectations.

Then just before leaving on my mission, I go through for the first time.

Handshakes? Pantomiming throat slitting and disembowelment? Dressing up like freaks in a Stephen King novel and chanting "Pay, Lay, Ale"? Hugging a guy through a curtain? Getting a "new name" on a little slip of paper? What the fudge!!!???

The whole time I felt like I must be on Candid Camera or something. It was like the world's greatest practical joke. And in the back of my mind I was getting close to profanity: "This is it?? This is forkin' it!!?? You've gotta be forkin' kiddin' me?? I waited all my life for this frat-boy, sorority sister nonsense?? And my damn temple socks keep getting sucked into the damn slippers! And !@$#@! get this shower cap strappy thing outta my face!"

I guess you could say that I was a bit disappointed by the temple experience.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 11, 2018 11:08AM

Wally Prince Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And my
> damn temple socks keep getting sucked into the
> damn slippers! And !@$#@! get this shower cap
> strappy thing outta my face!"

I had the same problems.

It was just as much of a let down without the swearing. I wish I could have handled it like you. I was just in shock. I couldn't stop being afraid. I was waiting for more ritual abuse like I got in The Initiatory. I was molested as a child and that was almost the same. The old man only stroked my testicles but it was too close.

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Posted by: Wally Prince ( )
Date: October 11, 2018 11:23AM

...It was right before my mission...and my mission was my next big hope for something--anything--that would live up to the hype.

But I was never able to fake it and say that my temple experience was special and wonderful and all that garbage. I think my parents and others knew that I didn't like it.

Shortly after I started my mission, I ran into a convert guy who had recently gone through the temple. He was a chatty, open guy and when the temple came up, he said something along the lines of "Jeez! Wasn't that a freak show?! I don't think I was ready for that, but I guess I'll figure it out."

I loved that he mentioned thinking of it as a freak show. Up to that point, I had felt very alone in my negative reaction, wondering if there was something wrong with me. But hearing that guy's honest reaction for some reason just totally freed me to accept the validity of my own reaction.

I hated the anointing part too, even though I had never had any particular abuse issues. It just felt creepy.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 11, 2018 11:42AM

Wally Prince Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...It was right before my mission...and my mission
> was my next big hope for something--anything--that
> would live up to the hype.

If they hadn't shipped me out soon, I probably would have reconsidered.

> But I was never able to fake it and say that my
> temple experience was special and wonderful and
> all that garbage. I think my parents and others
> knew that I didn't like it.

I was nervous so I bucked the tradition and only had a brother "escort" me through. My mother was livid. Everyone else had the whole damned family there. God, that would have been awful. I dislike many of my siblings and having them there in their getup would have been intolerable.

> I loved that he mentioned thinking of it as a
> freak show. Up to that point, I had felt very
> alone in my negative reaction, wondering if there
> was something wrong with me. But hearing that
> guy's honest reaction for some reason just totally
> freed me to accept the validity of my own
> reaction.

Jealous. It wasn't until I came here that I saw I wasn't the only one with temple problems.

> I hated the anointing part too, even though I had
> never had any particular abuse issues. It just
> felt creepy.

Because it was the sin next to abuse. I can't help you empathize. But imagine being sexually touched when it wasn't what you wanted but you are doing it to please others. In the temple case your family. What a mind F*ck that is.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: October 11, 2018 03:06AM

Non materialistic values are hard to find. The Pharisees (formerly Mormon) demand a business class appearance. They look to expensive rituals for enlightenment. Money changes hands before the temple pass is issued. The prosperity gospel can never be spiritual, because it has a price tag.

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Posted by: manymoremany ( )
Date: October 11, 2018 03:49AM

Whale put Don

It can't be further broken down.
Any finer and it'll be dust.

M@t

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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: October 11, 2018 03:17AM

......probably about as effective as vicarious dental care and vicarious dental work !!!!

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Posted by: Wally Prince ( )
Date: October 11, 2018 03:57AM

When the living are baptized for the dead, do the spirits of the dead feel wet? If not, was the baptism a dud or is that just the way it always works?

And if their spirits take on the appearance of the physical form that they were last in, would vicarious dental work help improve their appearance as a spirit?

Just some things to ponder as we make our way toward the weekend.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 11, 2018 11:05AM

Does it require spirit possession? I've always wanted to know.

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Posted by: readwrite-now ( )
Date: October 12, 2018 06:17PM

Mormons achieve their spirituality [religiosity?] through their misleaders (and not investigating or questioning their 'church', it's teachings, and practices, more thoroughly).

It's living, through a myth, as if it were actually living.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 12, 2018 06:46PM

readwrite-now Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's living, through a myth, as if it were
> actually living.

They are LARPing through life?

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