I figured it was just a matter of time until some one in the upcoming generation in my super MORmON family had a gay child along with all of the MORmON implications to deal with in their MORmON family.
I had no idea who the parents would likely be, although I did have certain parents picked out that I did KNOW would have a particularly hard time with it IF it happened to them, due to their devotion to their MORmON beliefs. I just kept waiting to see what would happen.
I had not seen all of my bishop brother's family for a decade. They had a wedding reception for his oldest. I went. The younger children were there as well. (BINGO !) One of the younger children, now nearing adulthood, is obviously (OBVIOUSLY) so inclined.
My bishop brother and his wife are ignoring the obvious, they just sent that particular son on a mission. There is some irony that it happened to my brother who is a bishop, but honestly, that brother is NOT nearly as strict (rabid MORmON) as some of my other siblings.
I spent most of the time talking to another Nephew at the wedding reception. That nephew also from my bishop brother's family, a couple of years older than his sibling that is OBVIOUSLY gay. We got along great. a while later I friended that nephew on FB. a couple of months later, that nephew basically came out on FB. Unlike his brother, I did not have a clue as I was talking to him at the mentioned wedding reception.
So, apparently, lightening has struck twice in my bishop brother's family. So my question is: what are the odds on ending up with two gay sons,like he did?
I know that identical twins do NOT necessarily both turn out to be gay, in fact, IF I recall correctly, the odds are actually against both identical twins being gay. SO that brings up the issue of the likelihood of siblings being gay. I had the impression, as with identical twins, that one offspring being gay does NOT increase the odds of other siblings being gay. .....OK, so I was too lazy to just Google this stuff and just came here first with my question. Hoping to get some informative responses.
Don't know, but my husband has a cousin who has two gay sons, no other children. The parents are fine with it, even have a gay pride rainbow flag outside their house. They are great people and loving parents.
It is going to be very interesting to see how my bishop brother copes with this issue as his sons get older and they want to have adult relationships of their own
Dogblogger is correct that researchers have merely scratched the surface where the causes and correlations of homosexuality are concerned. It will be interesting to watch as research unfolds. I have no more knowledge of this than does the next person with any sort of biology degree, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if, when more has been uncovered, the conclusion is that in males, it's related to antibodies produced by the mother that attack each male embroy/fetus increasingly vigorously with each succeeding male offspring that comes along.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2018 07:42PM by scmd1.
Lot's Wife Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > As you know, there is evidence to that effect. > Not conclusive, but surely suggestive.
Yes, and though other factors may be in play, I suspect that will be a huge part of the conclusion. I'm really curious, so I hope this one is at least somewhat conclusively cleared up in my lifetime. Other research may be more crucial, though perhaps nothing could be more crucial for a gay kid in a ridiculously closed-minded Mormon or fundie family.
If one assumes multiple genetic factors as well as environmental (in utero and ex) factors, then we are dealing not with a binary "switch" but with an overlapping cluster of Elder O'Dawg's Bell Curves. I believe we are well on the way to understanding the main determinants of the probabilities.
I join you in hoping that scientific research offers some solace to kids with unusual gender identities who are unfortunate enough to be born into retrograde families and religions.
Trying to find one "gay gene," or one "gay cause," is a fool's errand. There are multiple and complex factors that affect a human being's sexuality and personality.
The bottom line, for me, is simple: whether the "cause" is biological, genetic, psychological, social, familial, hormonal, or whatever...we're all human beings. It's worth trying to identify the factors that affect our lives, but whatever those factors are, gay people and straight people and everything in between are all human beings meriting the same rights and having the same responsibilities.
If we are going to look for genes causing things, lets look first at the genetic cause of bigotry and arrogance so we can stop mixing them with ignorance which is obviously not going anywhere soon.
Buddhist monks are great at cooking without meat. They use mushrooms, cooked various ways, to taste and feel like various meats. They do great things with tofu as well, but I realize that some people don't like soy products with their boxed wine.
As for me and my house, we are gourmands more than gourmets.
"...The bottom line, for me, is simple: whether the "cause" is biological, genetic, psychological, social, familial, hormonal, or whatever...we're all human beings. It's worth trying to identify the factors that affect our lives, but whatever those factors are, gay people and straight people and everything in between are all human beings meriting the same rights and having the same responsibilities."
So very true. This is what should have, and could have been said at conference recently instead of the disgusting, demoralizing hate filled sentiments that were.
I was about 14 months old and trying to feed myself with a spoon. After much consternation, and with the spoon lodged in my right ear, I took my fat little left hand and grabbed a handful of applesauce and threw it at the wall.
Not much is known specifically in regard to how the trait is passed on, but it is believed to have a strong genetic component. Enviroment and chance are thought to play smaller yet significant roles.
This is a wild-caard idea, only marginally related, and any evidence is purely anecdotal, but when my wife was completing her master's in ed psych, she came across a pschologist who had a hypothesis that males who were both red-haired left-handed rarely fell within the neurotypical range. In this psychologist's experience, they either experienced significant learning disabilities or worse (i.e. cognitive disability) or their cognitive test scores fell within the congnitively superior range. I have several relatives who work in various capacities of special ed (school psych, occupational therapist, two resource specialists, speech therapist, special services preschool teacher) who confirmed the results. Two were already informally tracking similar results themselves.
When I was doing my residency, an attending pediatrician, who had spent most of his career in Alberta but spent the finl fifteen years in California, mentioned to me that he had rarely encountered a male child with blue eyes and dark hair who did not have a significant attention deficit disorder. My almost four-year-old little boy may be an exception to that one, however. He's my more focused child. My blonde daughter (her eyes are still blue at three, but we think they will turn hazel or green) is closer to having an attention deficit disorder than is my brown-haired, blue-eyed son.
There is also a correlation between left-handedness and dyslexia, and between left-handedness, dyslexia and immune disorders. And of course, dyslexia is disproportionate comorbidity with ADHD.
All this stuff is partly genetic. As with intelligence and gender identity, there is a complex interaction between DNA and environment. Bell curves over bell curves.
I suppose it might be unclear as to how many Amazon rainforest settlement groups have gay members. Why a person is programmed at birth to be straight or gay is a mystery. None of us chose are deep down urge to be attracted to same or opposite sex.
I understand that certain personality traits are associated with certain orientations but I have been operating under the assumption that the relationship between personality and orientation was a casual relationship.
jacob Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I'm a bit dense but what does "obviously" mean.
Fair question. In this instance, I am talking about behaviors that are usually referred to as flamboyantly flaming gay. Like when a guy acts a lot more like a female (or a flamboyantly gay guy) than a typical male. Just trying to respond, not trying to offend.
My other nephew, his brother, I did not have a clue at the time.
smirkorama Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > In this instance, I am talking > about behaviors that are usually referred to as > flamboyantly flaming gay. Like when a guy acts a > lot more like a female (or a flamboyantly gay guy) > than a typical male. Just trying to respond, not > trying to offend.
When my latest daughter was born, I was her "primary caregiver" for her first year. I also regularly wash the dishes, vacuum the house, take care of my sick kids, etc. And I like show tunes. But I'm not gay, flamboyant or otherwise.
Not trying to be smug...just suggesting that perhaps it's our notion of the behavior of a "typical male" that needs adjusting and some more perspective. 'Cause I don't think doing things "traditionally" considered "acting like a female" means you're gay...
Couldn't agree more. Gender roles need to be relaxed enough to accommodate all people and all relationships as the partners want and need. Men can be primary caregivers; women can be primary bread winners--and those roles can change over time.
I have a friend who is completely heterosexual. He tried homosexuality but couldn't get beyond first base. He just isn't that attracted to men.
And he is flamboyant. He dresses wildly for a man. He speaks with a high pitch. He is super social and makes friends with women easier than men. I am one of his few male confidants.
Our mutual friends think he is gay pretending to be straight. Think "In and Out" movie. It is fairly pathetic how ingrained their biases are and I should know. As a Mormon I shared them.
ificouldhietokolob, You can say that twice and mean it!
I totally agree with what you said. Everybody is different, straight or gay. When people find out that I am gay and married, (knock on wood 14 years), the majority of the time I hear, "Really? Well you don't look or act gay!?" My husband and I over the years, have realized that humor always works better than taking offense when responding to this question.
My response usually consists of, "Well, sorry, I left my tiara at home today and my tutu is at the dry cleaners. But I do lift my pinky when I drink tea." I am smiling when I say it and after a couple of seconds of quiet, I start laughing. They usually realize that was kind of a silly question/statement and try to apologize they didn't mean it that way. I let them know it's okay and we laugh at ourselves all of the time. It lightens the situation and then I can tell them that not all gay people are like the stereotypes shown at the movies or on TV. And the point is everybody is different, EVERYBODY! Then comes the multiple questions they all have for me about being gay. I don't mind answering answering any questions they have. I think it is educational for the person and maybe can change their perspective especially if they are uber mormon.
That being said, show tunes make my ears bleed. (I did like the music from The Greatest Show). I dress frumpy. That's what my husband said when we first met. I like landscaping but could care less what my furniture looks like. (edited) And we don't have any fag hags. (Does anybody know where that phrase came from?)
When people ask when I knew I was gay, I reply, "I can't remember when I wasn't gay." I remember the first time I saw Buck Rogers with his shirt off when I was a kid. Wowsers!
I have an older brother who is gay, so I don't think I fit into the article above about brothers being gay.
Just my two cents, PEACE.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2018 12:33AM by rosysam.
It isn't just the Abrahamic religions. The Indo-European ones (which could have influenced Judaism through Zoroastrianism in the Captivity) disfavor the left hand as well.
The Latinate word "sinister" means "left" just as "right" means correct. And even today in India the left hand is the one that is used for hygienic purposes after one relieves oneself. The prejudice is thus far broader than just the Abrahamic tradition.
"being left-handed once had a very definite negative association in the Abrahamic religions."
Is anyone hung up on it now?
Why not?
" There are aspects of heritability that are not covered by Mendelian rule/observations; homosexuality and being left-handed are two such traits"
So's height. You down on short people to :?
Mendel got lucky, he hit on traits that had simple inheritance. The vast majority of heritable traits are not that simple.
"So I thought if there were more understanding about how/why left-handedness was passed on, it might be applicable to homosexuality"
That's actually a bad bet.
If we had more understanding of how cars worked, would that be applicable to airplanes? Not so much. Hey but they're both transportation, right? And they both have wheels!
I'm number 6 of 8 siblings, and the only one gay. My oldest sister has three kids, and the youngest two, a boy and a girl, came out as gay within a year of each other. So, she's batting 1 for 3. They're all still TBM, but she's the most accepting, tolerant person I know and supports her kids 100%. My brother-in-law not so much, but he's coming around, although the rhetoric coming out of the church doesn't help.
You ever sit down with the Bro-in-law to try to help him figure out why they decided to choose to be Gay? You know, it could have been something he said or did, and if it could ID'd, then that would give him a chance to keep it from happening again!!
Ha ha! Yeah...it's like my one of my older brothers; he has 4 daughters and counting. I like to remind him that it's HIS fault he doesn't have a son, not his wife's.
My brother-in-law isn't as big a problem for my niece and nephew as their older brother; he got back from his mission just under a year ago, where he turned into a dutiful little Morgbot. Now he's at BYU-Idaho, spending his free time watching conservative news programs and generally becoming an asshole. My sister--his mother--and my mother are both self-described "flaming liberals," so the next family reunion should be fun times.
She is! She figured me out before anyone had told her, when I was driving through and stayed at her house for a night. No one else in my family knew yet that I'm gay, but she was like, "You have something to tell me...."
I've "heard" it genetically runs through families but don't quote me on it because I am not an expert. That being said, many of the gay people I've known just happened to have gay siblings, parents, and/or cousins. So there might be something to it.
It's all probability. Gay people show up in all family trees and in all birth order positions. But the probability rises towards the younger end of the birth order.