This goes for TBMs, and fundies of all stripes and denominations.

For instance, we're supposed to "respect" a believer who wants to say grace over a meal - whether it be in public, or even in OUR homes - because we should accept their beliefs. Okay, but what about those who don't hold to any organized religion, or are agnostic or atheist? Doesn't anyone have to respect agnostics or atheists? Hell, I believe a god of some sort might exist, but I believe prayer is truly a useless exercise, even if God IS there. Do my beliefs not deserve respect?

Ultimately, TBMs and other believers want SPECIAL RIGHTS, the exact same kind of special rights they accuse the LGBTQ community of angling for with marriage equality. But then, I guess integrity isn't required if you believe strongly enough...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 01:51PM by helamonster.

Marriage equality isn't a matter of equal rights; those darned gays want SPECIAL RIGHTS.

Whenever I hear someone start an argument by claiming some group wants special rights, I know immediately what kind of person is speaking: someone who cannot tolerate diversity, who wants everyone to believe and behave exactly as he does, and who feels "offended" by other people's refusal to fall into line.

Look, like it or not, freedom of religion -- and its expression -- is a basic right in the United States. It's built into the system. People who insist on actually exercising their existing rights are not asking for anything special. You know that. You're just looking for something to whine about.

You are not in any way harmed by someone saying grace over a meal in a restaurant, and you KNOW you are not.

As for respect -- civilized human beings show basic respect for others in all situations. If you have trouble behaving appropriately in social situations because you can't deal with people different from yourself, that is a deficiency in YOU that YOU need to work on.

BTW, before you jump to conclusions . . . I am not an adherent of any major religion. I am not a Christian reacting defensively. But your position is simply false and unjustifiable. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms that one can make of the various religions and their adherents (I mean, if you really feel a need to do so), but this is not one of them.

Ummm... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> n/t
I could be wrong, but I thought the remark about gays was sarcasm to make a point.

bignevermo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> n/t

I said I could be wrong, but so could you. Maybe the poster could clue us in and settle the matter. Are you a mindreader? At least, I expressed my view as an opinion rather than a fact.

Hey Bona, did you ever get smacked by the other kids when you were in grade school for being so confrontational and hoity toity always right? Or is this something you learned later in life?

..just from an objective bird's eye view...I don't see the confrontation in "could be wrong..my opinion." Seem's like she/he was just expressing her/his opinion.

Rod Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ..just from an objective bird's eye view...I don't
> see the confrontation in "could be wrong..my
> opinion." Seem's like she/he was just expressing
> her/his opinion.

Thank you.

and since i am not ummmm,no... my saying that it was not sarcasm could ONLY be my opinion...and not fact ...the only entity that could verify the sarcasm is ummmm,no... so any other statement can ONLY be considered conjecture!

will realize that person is NOT being sarcastic.... i aint a mindreader... but reading comprehension isnt usually a problem for me!
i was hoping the poster ummm,no was being sarcastic.... but again read it carefully and hopefully you will see there is no sarcasm there!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 02:59PM by bignevermo.

If that was directed at me...first off, I'm nobody's sweetie so don't marginalize my comments.

My comment to Bona was about her general behavior, not just this particular case.

honey!! :)

LOL!!! I think I'm in love...

Houston we have a go for launch!! :)

Jealous...

Wait!!! I'm afraid of heights!!!

ah well you figure it out!! :)

bignevermo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> will realize that person is NOT being
> sarcastic.... i aint a mindreader... but reading
> comprehension isnt usually a problem for me!
> i was hoping the poster ummm,no was being
> sarcastic.... but again read it carefully and
> hopefully you will see there is no sarcasm there!!

First of all, I am not your sweety and second, I think my opinion is as valid as yours. I think it COULD be sarcasm. You think it isn't. Who made you the expert? Could you possibly be any more disrespectful? I'm done with you, Helamonster and Lost in Utah. Bye.

ROTFLMAO!!!!

Does it get any better? Bona, try something NEW for a change, you're getting boring.

well hmpfff to you too!! hey i am not a "bona hater" but i think i might get in line you Jackwagon! and it is just my opinion.... so there is a possibility i am wrong.... but the non response may indicate that i am right.... try to be nice.... oy vay!!
also Bona..if you read my first post..... i was waiting for that OTHER jackwagon to respond..... ummmm, no..... when no response was forthcoming it MIGHT indicate that i was right.... bona ya know i have seen many people deride you and now i know why.... i was actually being nice...and not condescending in my remarks to you..... well ya changed that now!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 03:28PM by bignevermo.

Hey bignevermo, do you think she stomps her feet and puts her hands on her hips when she says fuck off?

LOL

Don't take it personal, Bona hates everybody who doesn't see the world with her blinders.

bignevermo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> well hmpfff to you too!! hey i am not a "bona
> hater" but i think i might get in line you
> Jackwagon! and it is just my opinion.... so there
> is a possibility i am wrong.... but the non
> response may indicate that i am right.... try to
> be nice.... oy vay!!
> also Bona..if you read my first post..... i was
> waiting for that OTHER jackwagon to respond.....
> ummmm, no..... when no response was forthcoming it
> MIGHT indicate that i was right.... bona ya know i
> have seen many people deride you and now i know
> why.... i was actually being nice...and not
> condescending in my remarks to you..... well ya
> changed that now!!

If you consider that nice, you may want to work on your presentation. Just a thought.

Hey BONA - ANYBODY THERE????

He was being terribly nice, then you piss him off and use his pissed off post to prove how mean he is.

GET A LIFE...

better yet, get HELP!!!

nahh forget it!! it aint worth it! well ok.........Bona i think you feed off of the "persecution" you receive here....i can be a WHOLE lot worse...there is someone here that can attest to that fact.... ...so..... have a nice day SWEETY!! (I DONT MEAN IT THIS TIME)!! SEE i can be an ass!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 03:50PM by bignevermo.

I never claimed to be harmed. Nor do I want to restrict anything like that. I was simply saying that religionists want respect from everyone else, but don't give it to difffering viewpoints.

But you missed my point so you could climb down my throat. And even used a new screen name to do it. Bravo, you tower of courage, you!

you serious about this?
Marriage equality isn't a matter of equal rights; those darned gays want SPECIAL RIGHTS.
waiting for reply before i BLAST YOU!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 03:43PM by bignevermo.

How are your rights compromised by strangers saying grace in public? If they do so in your home, put a stop to it if it bothers you. People have rights and that includes the ones you don't agree with. You are also painting all religionists with the same brush. Some do respect your rights.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 02:09PM by bona dea.

But then, that's what you do best.

helamonster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But then, that's what you do best.Uh, I think you are the one who missed the point. You are pretty good at that yourself.

What I said (if you'd re-read my OP) is that religionists make it about rights, when it's really about respect.

Do you REALLY need to jump on the bandwagon whenever someone criticizes fanatical believers in order to say, "Not everyone is like this, you know." Yeah, we know. But you're not helping your point or your cause any by your absolute need to say this stuff at literally every opportunity.

And you only prove my point. By coming in here to crap all over my thread with irrelevant remarks, you show a considerable lack of respect.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 02:26PM by helamonster.

helamonster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What I said (if you'd re-read my OP) is that
> religionists make it about rights, when it's
> really about respect.
>
> Do you REALLY need to jump on the bandwagon
> whenever someone criticizes fanatical believers in
> order to say, "No everyone is like this, you
> know." Yeah, we know. But you're not helping
> your point or your cause any by your absolute ned
> to say this stuff at literally every opportunity.
>
> And you only prove my point. By coming in here to
> crap all over my thread with irrelevant remarks,
> you should a considerable lack of respect.

It is a matter of opinion whether my remarks are irrelevant. Thank you for proving once again that you have no respect for anyone who disagrees with you.What is your problem and where exactly is your respect?It seems to be conspicously lacking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 02:27PM by bona dea.

Wow. Seek therapy. Really. I'm not being facetious or snarky. I really think you need professional help.

helamonster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow. Seek therapy. Really. I'm not being
> facetious or snarky. I really think you need
> professional help.

Grow up.

Truly bona dea, you claim *I* need to be more respectful. REALLY? Wow. I just said I wanted respect from believers so they don't impose their beliefs on me. It happens INSTITUTIONALLY in America. Christians are *not* persecuted, no matter what you might think.

And while I start from a default position of respecting other individuals and/or groups, if they don't show me the same, I owe them nothing.

That is a life lesson you might want to learn.

Good ole Bona Dea in action.

Second verse, same as the first, no matter what the post is about.

Kids, kids, kids... Let us remember the adage from the Book of Meme: Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still fucking retarded.

That being said, I have no problem with anyone saying grace anywhere. It's never bugged me in the least. I do have a problem with those same people glaring at me when I hold hands with my same gender partner or when they see the Flying Spaghetti Monster jesus fish on the back of my car. Which I THINK is the point hela was trying to make, yes? That the right to practice whatever the hell you believe (or don't believe) SHOULDN'T be a special right, but that bible-thumpers make it seem like special rights when it applies to any other group, and human rights when it applies to them.

Who's arguing? I'm just trying to help this thread set a record.

:)

Has her list of those she considers bullies. From what I see she is the biggest bully here. Any disagreement with her is a personal attack but she has no problem going after others.

Yup.

WAHOOO!!! 81 posts and counting!!!

Uh, and what is the source of that particular piece of stupidity? It sure as hell is not the in Constitution or part of First Amendment jurisprudence.

Holmes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Uh, and what is the source of that particular
> piece of stupidity? It sure as hell is not the in
> Constitution or part of First Amendment
> jurisprudence.

We have the right not to believe as well as to believe. However, we do not have the right to be free from other people saying grace in restaurants or talking about their religious views.Both sides get to express their views.

you would not talk like that in front of someone!! and give me a moment and i will clear that up for you!

from the FFRF(freedom from religion foundation)
FFRF stops bible distribution by Gideons at Indiana school
FFRF removes Adam and Eve from History and other religious posters from public schools
Early victory in 2011 ‘War’ for secular holiday season
FFRF downs plaque on County tree
FFRF halts prayer in high school algebra class
Michigan city removes ‘Faith’ from website
No more “Hail Mary"s for Tennessee football team
Reflection replaces prayer in Eau Claire
FFRF removes nutty rapture fliers from Maryland post office
FFRF halts state-sponsorship of Civil War commemoration worship service
FFRF letter ensures atheist books delivered to Tulsa inmates
FFRF blocks Pennsylvania high school from planning/hosting baccalaureate
FFRF halts Ohio high school prayers
Religious ribbons downed in district, per FFRF letter
County’s jurors informed of secular oath option following FFRF letter
FFRF freezes church bulletin discount at frozen custard shop
FFRF letter ends Lord’s Prayer at Michigan senior center’s lunches
Cross removed from school bus following FFRF complaint
FFRF stops religious instruction by Kindergarten teachers in North Carolina school
FFRF ends community college minister program in Michigan
FFRF stops North Carolina teacher from leading students in prayer
FFRF halts two state/church violations in Tennessee’s McNairy County Schools
FFRF stops school choir prayers in Amarillo
Prayers stopped at Virginia high school baseball games
Only secular assemblies for North Carolina special needs school
No more Salvation Army bell ringers on postal grounds
New York school drops Catholic shrine from field trip itinerary
West Virginia high school nixes ‘inspiration’ from graduation ceremony
Florida district halts faculty involvement in student religious activities
City hall discontinues ticket sales for mayor’s prayer breakfast in Ocean City, Maryland
No more religious fliers without disclaimers in New Haven Public Schools
Prayers stopped at activities in Minnesota public school district
School board votes down religious charter school in Wisconsin
California school district prohibits staff participation in student religious activities
Florida city council will not support Ten Commandments proposal
Mississippi school district changes religious ‘Goals and Beliefs’ statement
Indiana school mentor program modified
Indianapolis Public Schools changes discriminatory Internet filtering policy
Oklahoma school district halts Gideons bible distribution
Tennessee school district will stop loudspeaker prayers
‘God Bless America’ sign removed from Florida public school
Florida school board admits Christian fundraiser was wrong
Pennsylvania middle school drops bible/library club
California high school library balances books
FFRF letter stops Arizona school district from mandating meetings in churches
FFRF letter prompts Louisiana schools to admit error in co-sponsoring National Day of Prayer ad
FFRF letter stops Christian group’s illegal privileges at Minnesota high school
‘Christians Reaching Every Where’ — except Fayetteville public schools
Texas district halts teacher’s use of Christian e-mail signature
FFRF letter stops Christian church service with special privileges on county fairgrounds
California school district to halt all graduation prayers
FFRF prompts district to reevaluate choir’s religious ties, baccalaureate
Washington school district restructures religious flier policy
County board nixes Ten Commandments monument proposal
Ohio elementary school cancels religious field trip
FFRF stops Alabama teacher’s bible distribution
Foundation complaint results in removal of religious poster in Wisconsin public school
FFRF complaint helps stop California graduation prayer
FFRF complaint halts bible reading and prayer at North Carolina high school athletic banquet
Albany Common Council (N.Y.) Votes Down Prayer Proposal Following FFRF Complaint
Ohio public college removes religious wording from its Web site
FFRF Complaint Alters Public School Fundraiser Recipient from Christian to Secular Charity
FFRF Letter Stops City Council Prayer Proposal in Roswell, Georgia
FFRF Ends Inappropriate Relationship Between Mississippi Police Dept. and “Haiti Relief” Project
Coach-Led Prayers Stopped at Pennsylvania School Games
Prayers by Coach Stopped in Indiana School District
Ohio School District Removes ‘God’ From List of Values
Michigan School Rejects ‘Christmas Break’ Change
Indianapolis School District Admits Wrongdoing in Religious Flier Distribution
Louisiana Governmental Department Agrees to Keep E-mails Secular
Restaurant Discontinues Illegal Church Bulletin Discount
School Ends Involvement in Church-Sponsored Graduation Party

sorry this is soooo long .... it shows Holmes is incorrect about his assertion that there is no constitutionality for freedom from religion!! READ IT AND WEEP!!

If you consider Xtianity just another brainwashing cult (though a big one), this list looks damn good to me.

opps sorry caps off now..... boy these tools have me fired up! Bona is the least of the problem when you have jackwagons like Holmes and ummmmmm perhaps they are samee samee!!

at a restaurant.... there should not be a problem with that. that is protected.... but if they come into your own home and do that...well ya got choices dont ya!!! apply them! course if its MOM...well that makes it a little more difficult to apply those choices!! :)

Major fail, bignevermo. All of the "examples" you give have to do with the Establishment clause, that is, the unwarranted entanglement of State entities with religious institutions or practice. None of them stand for the legally untenable and overbroad statement that "freedom of religion means freedom from religion. "

And you may want to consider the concept that the multiplication of bad or irrelevant responses to a question do not aggregate into a good or valid response. Please tell me you have not based your "understanding" of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment on selective gleanings from the FFRF web page. Your vacuous response indicates that you have done only that. (By the way, the FFRF is a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organization, which makes it socially parasitic, based on the discussion on another thread.)

So again I invite you to indicate where the phrase "freedom of religion means freedom from religion" is established in Constitutional jurisprudence, that is, an interpretive principle in Constitutional Law. Then again, you can save yourself the time because you won't find it. It is merely a monumentally uninformed and stupid phrase that gets repeated on the internet by people trying to sound much more intelligent than they really are.

<[The metaphor of "wall of separation" between church and state] is not a wholly accurate description of the practical aspects of the relationship that in fact exists between church and state.....[The Constitution] affirmatively mandates accomodation, not merely tolerance, of all religions and forbids hostility towards any. > Lynch v. Donelly (1984)

It is simply impossible to have freedom of religion without having freedom from religion.

Freedom of religion means one is free to believe any religion they want.

Freedom from religion means one is free from having a particular religious view imposed on them. As soon as someone is allowed to impose their religious views on you, you have lost your freedom of religion, because you have been forced to accept a religious view other than your own.

In other words, people are free to believe whatever religion they want, no matter how whacked out it is, they are not free to impose those religious beliefs on others. A person imposing their religious beliefs on others would deprive those others of their freedom of religion.

+10

...that the story of Korihor makes sense. Pick up your BoM and you'll get a clear idea of what "freedom of religion" really means to mormons. Hint: It means lipservice to the idea while ignoring that the three first commanments and the almost the entire Old Testament is in direct opposition to it, in other words complete and utter hypocricy. It means that atheists should be taken into custody and manipulated to break a real law so that they can be punished, and if that fails they should be kicked out of the country (without having commited a crime) and left in the mercy of a "christlike" mob who kills the atheist, then this event should be spread as propaganda to scare the population back into the fold. This is the mormon version of "religious liberty".

No, I do not have to respect the belief of practice of praying over a meal. I think it silly superstition that has no place is modern society. That is my belief, but in stating that belief, I have not stated that I think it should be a prohibited practice. Yes, I have said that I believe that prayer over food has no place in modern society, but that is NOT the same as saying I believe it should be prohibited.

Also, I like how so many jump all over the restaurant part of Helamoster's post and completely ignore the "or even in OUR homes", which IS very intrusive.

I think that the reason the non-religious have had to put up with the religionists is that we were SO outnumbered. Recent studies show that is changing dramatically and quickly. Almost 1 in 5 in the US now claims no religion on surveys.

There comes a tipping point when a group or an idea gains enough momentum to become common and acceptable. It isn't necessarily obvious when that happens.

I think we will look back on the BoM Musical as that tipping point when people in the US who don't give special respect to religion became mainstream.

The musical isn't just about Mormons. We are a little too close to it to see that yet.

1. The First Amendment doesn't say squat about you can believe whatever you want, or not. What it actually says is the United States government cannot declare a National Religion and force us all to follow it. That is all.

2. With regard to GLBT marriage, that is an issue of rights. Straight people have the right to get married. GLBT people do not. It is that simple.

3. With regard to religion, this is an issue of respect. While the OP would certainly not be harmed by someone saying a prayer in a restaurant in which he is sitting, he is still expected to respect that prayer. I say he shouldn't have to unless his beliefs are also respected. It's not like he jumps up and down while making monkey noises while people are trying to pray nearby. But why shouldn't he? The prayers certainly aren't going to respect his prayer to the Ape Man Monkey God.

watch out what you say here Hela, GLA is in a fightin' mood... :)

I never heard the fucking end of it. If you want to know what I think, and even if you don't I'm going to share my fucking opinion anyway. THE ONLY POINT HELAMONSTER IS TRYING TO MAKE IS THAT RELIGIONISTS SHOULDN'T BE PRESUMPTUOUS ENOUGH TO THINK THEIR BELIEFS ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT MATTER. THEY SHOULDN'T FEEL ENTITLED TO INFRINGE ON WHAT OTHER PEOPLE MAY OR MAY NOT BELIEVE. JESUS! DOES THIS REALLY HAVE TO TURN INTO A FUCKING MARTYRDOM? FUCK.

Very well spoken. +100

a slo mo train wreck

Do it in your own home, not mine.

If you do it in a restaurant in front of me I'm leaving.

It's time you had some respect !



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 03:35PM by Dave the Atheist.

I'm not an atheist, but seriously, there is a time and a place that people should pray, and IN A GODDAMN RESTAURANT or IN ANOTHER PERSON'S HOME, it is absolutely inappropriate. At least have the decency to congregate in the shitter and pray so other people don't have to hear it.

+ onemilliongazillion!!!!

other people babble incantations over the food, as if it might be poisonous if they don't? The food's getting cold, and I don't acknowledge your god, and at a public, secular event... No. Screw them.

My religious beliefs tell me that 5 minutes into any meal, I must prostrate myself, on my knees, forehead to the floor, and ululate loudly. Of course, everyone else must stop eating, and if not join me, they need to wait respectfully, on the their knees as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 03:39PM by serena.

I was recently asked to pray over a meal at a friends home. I stared at them for a good minute with my mouth agape. I inquired if they knew that I am an atheist. Their response was along the lines of, if you pray god will pour his love into you.

I don't know about ya'll but I don't want god pouring anything into me. I thanked them for inviting me and then I left and drove to a restruant. Yep, not hanging out with them again. I had no clue they were that fundie.

An excellent example of the point the OP was trying to make.

Total lack of respect. Glad you respected yourself enough to leave.

God is Def Lepard, and he desire to pour some sugar on you.

I suggest the next time someone asks you to say grace that you start singing that song. Loudly. But with your head bowed.

Another good one is God Made Rock N Roll by Kiss

I have (although not in the presence of actual bible thumpers) passionately quoted the words to The Beatles' Hey Prudence, only I replaced Prudence with Jesus. It was a good grace.

Ooooo...I should travel around with my air-synthezier and beat out the drum line to that song!

Hey, this post is maybe setting a record for most replies.

Note to all wanna-be writers: conflict sells...

I think I'll write a book called, "Jesus wants your fetus: Biblical proof that abortions are exalted unto god."

needs a more salable title, but the text is good

hows about

Jesus wants you, Baby!

Hmm... Scraping out your uterus for the lord?