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Posted by: behindcurtain ( )
Date: November 01, 2018 09:46PM

If you have kids, you are committed to them for the rest of your life, or at least for a long, long time. You have to take care of them every day. You have to spend money on them.

You can't divorce your kids. Abandonment is criminal, and disowning is much more serious than divorce.

You can't take that job you want if it doesn't pay enough to support your kids. You can't move into that apartment you love if it doesn't have enough room for your kids. It is difficult to move to a different city or state because that might not work for your kids.

You should save enough money to help your kids go to college, at least for a few years. If you don't, you will experience social disapproval, and you might hurt your kids socially.

If your kids have problems, you face other things. You might have huge medical bills, you might have to spend even more time caring for your kids than you otherwise would, your kids might rebel, etc.

Your kids won't realize what a sacrifice you are making, at least for a long time. They will take what you do for granted.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: November 01, 2018 10:07PM

It can be a risk for sure. Worth the gamble in many cases. It doesn't always work out either.

Such is life.

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Posted by: NormaRae ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 11:49AM

I never thought of it as a choice, and I know I was not alone in that thinking, by any means. It was chosen for me when I was placed on planet Earth in possession of a uterus. And yes, if it truly is a CHOICE you make, taking into consideration all the things the OP mentioned, it can be a good, maybe wonderful thing.

It can (doesn't always) backfire big time, however, if you are under the "fulfilling the measure of your creation" mindset. Especially if you also made a bad choice in spouse for the same reason--you had to get married and pop out kids and couldn't be choosy about it. It can be very unfair to yourself and the kids it produces.

I thought TSCC seemed to be backing off on the pressure to marry way too young and pop out kids way too fast. But with the 94-year-old unhinged "prophet" drunk on his newfound power in charge, and the warning that he's really going to be unleashed, who knows where all that will go. Would be nice if the young mormons could feel ok about making their own decisions about WHETHER and when to have children, but I'm afraid it cold go the other way.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 04, 2018 02:59AM

It HAS to go the other way.

The church is losing young people as fast as Nelson is losing his mind. That's why they lowered the missionary ages: to get kids right out of high school rather than giving them a year free of parental and church pressure, a year in which many people leave the church.

The same thing is true of marriage. If young people have a few years to explore and learn, a high percentage of them will defect. The church has to prevent that. So the need to encourage young people to marry and spawn is as dire now as it has ever been.

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: November 01, 2018 10:45PM

We were u unable to have children and we REALLY wanted to have a family so we adopted two. So yes it was a very good idea for us. If you have kids...and wish you didn' to be you.

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Posted by: Free Man ( )
Date: November 01, 2018 11:10PM

If you like kids and can care for them, it is a good idea.

Otherwise, not.

Generally, we are wired for having kids, otherwise we wouldn't be here.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: November 01, 2018 11:23PM

If you have to ask, try cats.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: November 01, 2018 11:40PM

Insanity is hereditary. You get it from your kids.

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Posted by: chipace ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 12:05AM

I highly recommend the movie Idiocracy. It shows where the human race is headed. The smartest and most successful people I know are single and have no kids... I don't think this is a coincidence.

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Posted by: Norris Fishbein ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 04:13AM

And it was surprising to find out that most of them have no children. May, Merkel, Macron, Rutte and several others.

Just a generation ago that would have been unthinkable.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 04:36PM

Yep. Which is why their policies don't seem all that family oriented at times. Multicultural and economic reasons for brining in people from all over to work the jobs seems to have divided many parts of Europe rather than bring it together.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 06:07PM


You are saying that Europe isn't family-friendly? You don't know what you are talking about.

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Posted by: Anonhere ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 08:38AM

Depends on how you define success. It’s obviously going to be easier to put more time into your career, save more, etc... without kids. However, I know a good number of very successful business owners, and they all have kids. On the other hand, most 40-somethings I know without kids are not smart or successful.

It’s also interesting that CEO’s are far more likely to be pschopaths than the general population. I wouldn’t be surprised if the same applies to top government leaders:

People that don’t care about others are certainly going to be less likely to have kids. They’re going to be more likely to lie and cheat their way to the top as well. I’ve worked with some executives that are great people over the years, but I’ve worked with one guy like this. He’s “very successful”, but he’s probably also the worst person I’ve ever met.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 12:08AM

I bore one, to my now-ex. After that, I was a big fan of contraceptives until the surgical demise of my fertility. The ex hounded me to keep working until my blood pressure was sky-high, and my OB-GYN ordered me to stay home for about the whole month before my son was born. I might as well have been a single mother. The ex never fixed a bottle, changed a diaper, took son to the doctor - NADA. And then Himself started in only days after son was born: when are you going back to work? We need that money. So son was only seven weeks old when he went into day care.

I remember asking a therapist if post-natal depression would be over by the time son graduated from university. I was serious. I love my son dearly, but I wasn't about to have another one. Within the same week as our divorce came through, I had my tubes ties. The rest of the equipment went later.

When I remarried, I had already warned DH that there would not be any more children. He had three, and between us, four were enough.

I can remember one Mormon lady - her husband was a bishop for a while, (actually, he was the one I resigned through) who had eight children, and she was cuddling one of her grandchildren while saying longingly, "I wish we could have more babies!"

I was shocked. I was an only child myself, the mother of an only, I could not comprehend dealing with so many children.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 02:21AM

So did he want a kid, or was this one an accident? In Mormonism, people have kids for ideological reasons. It seems your ex couldn’t appreciate what he had.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 06:59PM

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 09:00PM

Mobots. The robots your mother didn’t warn you about.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: November 03, 2018 01:33AM

He was Presbyterian. He was also (pardon the alliteration) an abusive, adulterous @$$hole.

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Posted by: Norris Fishbein ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 03:43AM

Currently, the people who think about it the most and contemplate the costs and benefits, along with the infinite burden of responsibility entailed, are more likely to have fewer kids or no kids.

The people who let their hormones and natural animal instincts have total control and don't really think about responsibilities and costs are more likely to have many kids.

The long-term implications may be important.

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Posted by: oldpobot ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 04:30AM

Wait until you are at least 30, with some degree of financial security, the ability for one or both of the parents to stay home rather than work full time, commit to each other for 20 years of joint child-rearing, and then have two of the little blighters - no more, no less.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 04:34AM

With a little luck, two is a complete set.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 05:13AM

You don’t have kids, kids have you.

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 05:15AM

My parents shouldn't have had me. Would have saved us all some grief.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 05:33AM

I'm quite happy with the two children I have. We weren't concerned about gender but having one of each has been sweet.I'm glad we were able to stop at two. Had we been given a multiple-birth surprise I would have made the best of it, but we like not being outnumbered by offspring.

I was 30 when #1 was born. Wife was 26.

Wife works minimally as in tries one case per year, attends one board meeting per month, and does legal paperwork at home to the extent that she chooses to do so. Her money does most of the work for her now. If her law firm went under, we could live on my earnings.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2018 05:34AM by scmd1.

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Posted by: Strength in the Loins ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 05:53AM

Like everything else, it depends on multiple factors. What is right for one person or couple will not necessarily be right for the next. Speaking personally, this is an area where I have a lot of regrets - as well as anger and hostility towards the cult.

I have a step-daughter plus five kids that my ex-wife and I had together. I love my kids dearly. They have been, and continue to be, one of the great joys of my life.

But I will also say that I had no appreciation for how difficult it would be. Mormonism doesn't exactly encourage responsible family planning and looking at kids through the cold, hard lens of a cost-benefit analysis was the farthest thing from my mind as a young 20-something fresh off of his mission.

I love my family, but I know now that there is a massive opportunity cost there. I have been working 50-60 hour weeks for many years now and I groan when I think of travels and vacations and adventures that were never taken. If I had worked as hard as I've worked over the years and invested that money, I would likely be very close to retirement at this point (I am 46 years old). As it stands now though, I am light years away from that goal and I will likely be working well beyond 65.

Also, I did not appreciate very well that women are individuals rather than baby making machines. I definitely had that all-too-typical Mormon male mindset that believed that a woman's primary role in life was to be a wife and a mother. My ex was somebody who has always struggled with depression and emotional instability and who, in all honesty, never should have had six children and shouldn't have been stuck in the role of stay-at-home mom. She was ill suited for it. She was miserable and I was miserable.

So for me, I guess the answer to the OP's question is a qualified yes (for me anyways). Having kids is great, but the longer you can put it off, the better. And the decision about the person that you choose to have your kids with is even more important.

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Posted by: cftexan ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 06:56AM

The CF part of my screen name means childfree. Lol. I guess that gives away my answer to that question. ;)

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 10:24AM

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Posted by: anono this week ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 11:11AM

1st off I get the impression that some of the posters like having money and an easy life (self indulgent, juvenile). That being said...

Having kids is good for society, and the sustaining of the nation. If not look at what's happening in Europe. In 20 years they are going to be calling it Euro-Abia. It's no laughing matter. But for all of us who have lived much of our lives, it doesn't matter too much. It's the young ones that I wonder about. What kind of world are we going to leave them? And money isn't everything and is actually of little importance.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 11:57AM

I was a teacher for 33 years and I can tell you that it is irresponsible to sire children as some kind of supposed duty to society.

Children deserve to be loved, appreciated and wanted for their own sake. It isn't their responsibility to somehow be a cog in sustaining society. Responsible use of birth control means that children are loved and wanted.

I've seen too much heartache and suffering in children who came into the world for the wrong reasons. Teachers are busy teaching and can't provide enough love and support to make up for parents who have children for the sake of society or other false expectations.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2018 12:06PM by Cheryl.

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Posted by: cftexan ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 08:27PM

Yes, thank you Cheryl!

I hate the assumption that everyone who doesn't want kids are rich, selfish, immature or don't understand unconditional love.

There's no point in following some "life script" when you don't want to. You aren't going to be beneficial to a kid you don't want. All children should be wanted immensely

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 09:12PM

I’ve seen the flip side. I know a woman whose mother never liked her and never wanted her. She was a surprise baby and got the blame for “ruining” her mom’s life. That kid did NOT turn out okay. She’s supported by taxpayers now.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: November 03, 2018 05:05AM

Thanks, Cheryl.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 03, 2018 08:10AM

The U.S. is nearly at replacement rate in terms of fertility -- 2.03 compared to 2.1%. The rest could easily be made up with a small to moderate level of immigration. At nearly 300 million people, we are already the 3rd most populous nation on the planet.

As a teacher of impoverished children, I can tell you that money is *very* important. I have visited the homes of my students with barely a stick of furniture and no food in the refrigerator. I know parents that have two and even three low wage jobs, taking them away from their children. These are useful jobs that enrich our lives every day. But the wages are low and it is very difficult for these parents to support their families.

I have seen the results of abuse, neglect, and severe, untreated mental illness, and those results are not pretty.

Most adults do have children. It is not necessary to engage in name-calling of those who choose not to. How would you like it if people who have a dozen or more children called YOU selfish, lazy, or irresponsible for making a different choice?

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 11:57AM

I always knew I didn't want children, yet it's at the center of Mormonism. I knew having a family just to be a good Mormon would be a bad mistake — particularly since I was becoming rather certain the rest of the religion was baloney.

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Posted by: DaveinTX ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 12:16PM

Wow! After reading your post, I surely HOPE you do not have any kids.

Of course it is a life long commitment. They don't just magically go poof on a given date.

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Posted by: Elyse ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 01:18PM

If a pre-natal test shows the child will be born mentally handicapped think twice before carrying the pregnancy to term.

The movement to encourage people to give birth to Down's children is insane.

I mentioned this before and some posters really tore into me.


A mentally handicapped child will consume all your time and your resources until the end of your life, shortchanging your other children and yourself.

Note that I'm not saying to treat handicapped people badly - but for God's sake use a little common sense and basic math if you have a choice.

It would be much smarter to terminate the pregnancy and try again in a few months for a healthy baby that can function well in our increasingly demanding society.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 02:17PM

"...disowning is much more serious than divorce."


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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 02:38PM

It was for me.

In my case, I learned how to honestly and completely give selflessly -- something I didn't know about before. If you don't have kids, I'm not sure you can appreciate the satisfaction of doing that. And, honestly, "satisfaction" isn't even close to the right's much more than that.

I don't expect my kids to ever "pay me back." Or take care of me when I'm old, or anything of the sort. The thing is, they probably will anyway...but I'm not expecting it. My kids are smarter than me, they'll be better humans than me, they'll make the world a better place. That's more than enough "reward" for me.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 06:17PM

Having children is clearly something that people need to consider deeply since they are a huge commitment.

My putting that here is simply because I wanted to second Hie's thinking. I always had mixed feelings about having children and yet have found it the most awesome experience imaginable. They are a vast net positive for me.

And I agree about the inter-generational balance of responsibility. We conjured our children into existence and hence owe them everything we can possibly provide. Otherwise we would be absentee parents ignoring the needs and prayers of our own creation: a little like Elohim. Our love and support, conversely, implies no reciprocal obligation to us. Children owe us nothing other than what they, by their presence, have already given.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 09:27PM

“My kids are smarter than me, they'll be better humans than me, they'll make the world a better place.”

Now if that isn’t some irony. An exmo producing thinking people who are in a position to help. Meanwhile, Mormons are popping out little subjects for a cult empire and espousing their Stepford family vision.

And telling you that after death you won’t be with them until a Mormon enters a temple and does some ordinances made up (or stolen from the Masons) by a horny con man.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 02:54PM

I only can speak for myself. Having children is a lot of work. You really do need to be unselfish and put your children on top of the priority list right under your spouse. We gave up things to raise children but the rewards are wonderful. I have friends my age who never had any kids and they seem kind of lonely. I've seen people in their 60's father children and say why did I wait?

The bottom line is you are going to have to give a lot up to raise children. It's a sacrifice and if you don't want to sacrifice then maybe having kids will make you miserable.

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Posted by: Sillyrabbit ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 06:08PM

Well, maybe not for you.

For most of us, yes.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 06:27PM

I think it was Quentin Crisp who said God made gay people so the truly talented wouldn't be burdened with children. Take that how you may , but . . .

For most people, even if you are truly talented, the second you have a child being a parent leaps to the top of your to do list, and dominates the first five spaces on the list. What you really want to be and do is compromised, or, you can choose to be a not so hands on parent with latch key kids who raise themselves and resent you at first because you were never there and later evolve to where they are glad you are not there.

I think both the above scenarios are wrong. Balance is what a child needs to see. There for the important times, but having enough of your own life that your child sees you as a whole vibrant, fulfilled, person who makes decisions wisely and loves them on top of that. This also takes the pressure off the kids so that they know their failures don't reflect on you because you are not dependent on them for your self esteem.

However, with the extreme pressure on parents nowadays to make such perfect lives for their children I don't see how a balanced approach is possible. It's all a crap shoot so you really really gotta want them.

P.S. I don't have children but I love to tell everyone else how to do it. I'm sure I'm right. :)

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 02, 2018 06:38PM

"I think both the above scenarios are wrong. Balance is what a child needs to see. There for the important times, but having enough of your own life that your child sees you as a whole vibrant, fulfilled, person who makes decisions wisely and loves them on top of that. This also takes the pressure off the kids so that they know their failures don't reflect on you because you are not dependent on them for your self esteem."

Makes sense to me. Taking care of oneself is a critical part of loving and nurturing a child.

Pretty good for an outside observer!

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: November 03, 2018 05:14AM

It makes sense to me. My children's needs come first for my wife and for me, but the children need to observe models of mentally healthy adults rather than parents who martyr themselves in the name of parenthood. Furthermore, my wife has a serious chronic illness. If she doesn't take care of her health needs, our children won't have a mother.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: November 03, 2018 05:19AM

I loved being a mom. Even going through single parenthood not as a choice but a necessity, was worth the trouble and the sacrifices to raise my family.

It changes you as a person to be responsible for the welfare of another. To train them up and provide for their needs. When their joys become your joy, and watching them grow and change with the passage of time. Until one day they fly away solo and free like they were meant to be.

The best years of my life were spent being a mother. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

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Posted by: Brewers_Fan7 ( )
Date: November 14, 2018 01:21PM

There are several ways to look at this question. For my part (four biological kids, one step kid and a nephew we have custody of) I think it's a good thing. But, and this is big, I actually like my kids. As in I actually enjoy hanging out with them, talking to them and experiencing things with them. I've been lucky though. Six kids is a lot and it's not really a number I'd recommend, but the flip side is that those six amazing kids are going to be a counterweight to the Mormons.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: November 14, 2018 08:32PM

It depends how many beers you’ve had.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: November 14, 2018 11:27PM

but I also wanted children very much. When my mother would have babies, I loved it. I was like a second mother to my younger siblings, especially since I had a younger disabled brother and my parents had to focus a lot of their attention on him. My youngest brother still considers me one of his mothers. And I loved taking care of them, so I wanted MANY children.

I had twins when I was 28. Found out my gay husband had been cheating by the time they were 1-1/2 years old. We never had any other children, which is a good thing. Being a single mother is a really tough situation, but I somehow did it. My children are part of me, something you can't understand until you've had one When I see them after not seeing them for a while, it as though part of my soul has been handed back to me.

It has been difficult. I thought getting them through high school was the difficult part. NOPE. My son, at this time, is finally coming off the medication that got him off drugs. You live your children's pain and suffering. I had the feeling just last week that when I die, he has to go with me. I know he can't.

BUT in reality, having children, I believe, is the ultimate act of selfishness. They didn't ask to be born. It is up to us to make sure they are taken care of, that we are there for them. I was a SAHM, but I worked at home. Still do.

I don't really want grandchildren. My kids are going to be 33. My daughter is finally going to get married. I will offer to babysit their children as I know she'll need to work (mentally) as I don't want my grandchildren (my kids were never in) in daycare. I spent 1 month in daycare as a child and I never want my kids to have to go through it. Because of what my children have done for me (kept me alive and I love them more than life itself), I want my children to have that experience IF THEY SO CHOOSE understanding what it will be like as much as possible.

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