There have been several threads about pushy missionaries and not wanting to be contacted after resigning and what-not, and it got me thinking.

Am I the only one that welcomes confrontation with the kolobians? Surely there must be others on this board who relish the opportunity to bash a mormon when the opportunity presents itself.

Maybe it has a lot to do with me not living in Utah. I can see how that would be like sweeping a dirt floor. But outside of Utah, is there anyone who enjoys a good discussion with a kolobian, missionary or otherwise?

I find that whenever I do have the opportunity they can't get away fast enough. Once you flip the script on them and ask them the hard questions they just want to run away. It's rare when one will stick around long enough to see through the CogDis.

From what I've been reading lately it seems like those who don't want to talk to them at all are always cornered, like the kolobian can smell blood in the water and they zero in and push and push and push until they either A) make you walk away or B) make you lose your cool so they can feel "persecuted."

I often give them some money (which they try to refuse!),when I see them out shopping, or pay for a small amount of items at the check out line from time to time. I am appalled at how poorly they live and how little money they have to sustain themselves. The LDS Church treats them like paupers these days. That was not true in years past.I am married to an RM, we sent two of our kids on missions.

I also enjoy talking to them. I want them to know that apostates are regular people and can be kind and decent like other people.
I don't see them often in our area, anymore, however.

I have some basic principles I live by. I respect their right to choose their religious service.
That kind of respect for service was engrained in me from a young child when we had family members serving as Christian missionaries in So. America in the 30's to 50's. They often built schools, as well as teach their religious beliefs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2011 12:27PM by SusieQ#1.

No, you are NOT the only one. Col. M. loves talking to the mishies, or anyone else that will listen. Not long ago they came to my door so we invited them in and treated them really nice , they ARE just kids, we fed them and then we talked a while.

The Col. gets such a kick out of calmly asking them questions that just make them a little crazy, mostly things they have never heard of.

They don't believe him, but he gives them references, and then we wonder if they ever go look them up. He never passes up the chance to kindly help anyone see the truth.

He is currently in the process of teaching his old best buddy in college about the REAL truth and the process has been very slow, but suddenly it is picking up. Now these 2 are both age 66.

At first, 2 years ago his friend told him he was possessed of the devil basically, but he just gently pecks away, asks questions, and the guy is now really in the major doubting stage, asking questions back of the Col., it has been really fun to watch.

C. M. is very good at this, but I am not. I am better off to say nothing, because I just tend to be to blunt and offer way to much info too fast, but it is a delight to watch the Col. in action, as he can do this so very skillfully and offend no one. He is pretty amazing!

I have lived in this same house since 2005. They have come to my house once in all those years. I didn't tell them my situation, they were tracking and I'm sure they hadn't searched me out.

I want to feed them. I also want them to know that they are being lied to when they are told that people who leave the church are never happy. I'd ask them some questions if I felt I wasn't being too rude.

because they know so little about life. Most I've run into have never been in a college class...let alone understand anything about anthropology, biology, earth science, sociology, comparative religions, etc. So, they just have the "deer in the headlights look," and bear their testimony as programmed. However, I've "been there, done that," so I'm usually (at least) nice to them.

The church leaders... now, they're fun. There's something to work with there, and it doesn't take long for the conversation to go from "the church is true, we have living prophets and the power of God" to "well, the church is no worse than others, and it makes me feel good." Of course, I can then still proceed to point out why it isn't always good to be mormon.....

I've never told the local mormons that they shouldn't visit. However, it's been years since anyone ever called or dropped by on official church business. I'm still friends with a few of them, so they know who I am and that I exist. I'm guessing that they've decided it's in their best interests to leave me alone. (I still show up as a member of my local ward in LDS.org.)

this is news to me. please expound.

You need to create a "LDS account" (aka login). It's been a while, but as I recall they required info such as full name, birth date, baptism date...(not sure of specifics).

Once your info is found/linked, you will find yourself in your ward/stake page. From there, you can look at the ward or stake directory, find the local leaders, see the local calendar, etc. You can look at maps and see where you and everybody else in the ward lives.

never returned. I guess those discussions about JS's polygamy put them off.

I'd love to do it again.

... is to immediately disarm their testimony. Once you've disarmed their testimony they have nothing to turn to when you back them into a doctrinal corner. It usually goes something like:

Kolobian: I'm always interested to hear LDS state that they "know" that their church is true. I can understand believing it, but how does one get from "believing" to "knowing?"

Missionary: If you pray and ask with faith God will tell you. (or some variation thereof)

Kolobian: How can you know for sure, without a doubt, that the answer you receive is coming from a god?

Missionary: You just feel it. It's unlike anything I've ever experienced before.

Kolobian: Explain it to me. Exactly what did you feel?

Missionary: I can't explain it. I just know it's from god.

Kolobian: Can you honestly say, without a doubt, that it's impossible that those feelings came from your own mind?

Missionary: No, but I don't think it came from my mind. I think it came from god.

Kolobian: Let's assume for the sake of argument that those feelings didn't come from your mind, that they came from a supernatural source. How do you know that the source is god and not lucifer?

Missionary: Lucifer can't give you feelings of peace. It says so in X scripture.

Kolobian: How do you "know" that X scripture you quoted wasn't also inspired by Lucifer? That's what I would do if I were Lucifer.

Missionary: I take it on faith.

Kolobian: Exactly. You have "faith" that X scripture was inspired by god, and you have "faith" that those feelings came from a god, and you have "faith" that the god isn't lying, but that's not the same as "knowing."

Kolobian: Further, when Adam built an altar and prayed to god for guidance, who answered his prayer?

Missionary: .... (they won't answer because they think they'll get in trouble if they talk about the temple)

Kolobian: I'll answer for you. When Adam prayed "oh god hear the words of my mouth" a voice came from behind him saying "I hear you."

Adam didn't say "hey Lucifer, I wasn't talking to you!" He said "who are you?" The point is, the temple teaches that Lucifer answers prayers and that the person praying has no idea that it's Lucifer doing the answering.

So you can never "know" for sure that god is answering your prayer. You can only "believe" that the answer came from a god, and not your mind, and not Lucifer, and not space aliens.

Then, my favorite part of the discussion, is that I use the commitment pattern on them by saying, "Elder X, Elder Y, will you stop pretending that you "know" your church is true now that you've acknowledged that you can only get as far as belief? Will you stop bearing your testimony that you "know" your church is true?

They always say no, but they never ever try to bear their testimony to me and we can have an honest conversation without them appealing to subjective feelings.

They're forced to actually consider what I'm saying and it takes all their power away. It may be a lot to read but the actual dialogue only takes a minute.

Once you've descredited their testimony they are completely powerless. The emperor truly has no clothes.

No you’re not alone. I relish every chance to ask the hard questions without bashing. Bashing turns the brain off.

With me it goes something like this.

AmIDarkNow?, "Your theology teaches that the war in heaven was about having the right to decide for oneself right? "

Mishgonairy, "That’s right".

AmIDarkNow? "Just to clarify that fact in moromon wiki it even states that God himself cannot break that rule and that of course make sense right?"

Mishgonairy, "That’s right".

AmIDarkNow?, "So in the temple the penalty oaths that your parents pantomimed destroy's that right forever, there is no going back or the threat is imposed".

Mishgonairy, "??? (Whatever his reply may be)".

AmIDarkNow?, "Therefore is a person within their rights guaranteed to them via the supposed War in Heaven, to choose not join the church because they see this contradiction clearly?"

Mishgonairy, "They have their right to choose...blah, blah, blah".

AmIDarkNow?, "And if a person joined the church but did not recognize this contradiction up front but did so later, still have the right to choose differently?".

Mishgonairy, "Of course but...blah,blah,blah".

AmIDarkNow?, "Sorry, no buts here. We already established the fact that free choice cannot be removed by God himself therefore how can it be remotely possible that the temple ordinances can do so?"

AmIDarkNow?, "So you see Mr. Mishgonairy this is just one reason that those outside the religion that you profess to be "true" is not taken seriously and this is but one example of hundreds that normal everyday people that take the time to think these things all the way through see with the problems in mormonism. You as a Mishgonairy have had thousands of hours of instruction on how not to see them and I’m willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that you never saw this particular one until I pointed out to you."

Mishgonairy, “One issue does not an un-true church make. Give us another example”.

AmIDarkNow?, “That is not a good idea. You need to start thinking for yourself and not how others have taught you to think. Besides, your freckle faced companion next to you looks like he is fresh off the farm and would likely pee his pants if I pointed out several others and that would be embarrassing. The contradictions, plagiarisms, anachronisms and immorality in the doctrine is right there in the books you carry in your hands every day. No need for the internet and no need for supposed anti-mormon sources. Good luck.” (Ok maybe not the pee pants part)

And so on and so on. Establish what the rules or the doctrine is up front then ask questions. The doctrine, just like Tal Bachman taught us, will torpedo itself.

Okay I like that one!

Gonna use it soon!

Not at all. I lived in an apartment complex where missionaries also lived. I would say hi and have a few words with them when I saw them. I talk to missionaries if they come by and I have time. They ask about me and I just tell them about my history with the church, the good, the bad, and why I am not a member. A couple of times I've had a missionary open up and tell me about struggling on his mission. I guess that I know the road but don't have the expectations of them their co-religionists do encouraged them. Eh. Kids doing what I did. Maybe they'll grow out of it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2011 07:59PM by robertb.

I think they sent every member of the ward one at a time to my house after my ex told them to get lost. Never the same person twice. I can imagine how we were discussed in PEC meetings. We were probably the less actives from hell. Like I care.

I was talking to my brother, and I remarked that our TBM mom has really chilled out over the last ten years or so. She used to be in our faces about everything Mormon or Mormonish, and she never took a hint. My brother asked me what I was talking about. She hasn't changed at all for him. The difference is that he puts up with it and lets her treat him that way. I don't. I call her on it every time. So, she stopped.

The thing that ex-Mormons need to learn is that these people are never going to go away unless you stop letting them treat you like an inferior. My ex-wife used to kick them off our porch before they got two words out. She had their number from day one. She used to say that the only thing these people understand is the F word. She was right. Mormons wouldn't talk about "angry apostates" if it didn't work. Being nice and trying to find consensus and keeping them around as friends is like feeding a stray. I really don't want to talk to these people. They have nothing that I want - at all.

I remember when Dan Peterson emailed me and several other people to "correct" something that Jerry the Aspousetate said in a post here on RfM. Peterson said that he was unable to contact Jerry to tell him personally. So, I asked Jerry about it, and Jerry laughed and said he has that whole *.byu.edu domain blocked. Jerry said that he doesn't have problems with Mormons. If they try to email him, he marks them as spam. If they come to his door, he tells them to get the hell off his porch and never come back. (I think it's a bit more dramatic than that, but that's what he said.) Jerry said "I don't have problems with Mormons." That conversation has really stuck with me.

Mormons treat you like an inferior, but I think they feel disenfranchised by the whole world and really just want to suck up to everyone to make themselves feel better about what losers they are. It's even better if they can make you feel like a loser. That's why they assign "friends." Some of them will be your "friends" that you're supposed to be nice to, because they're your "friends." Then those "friends" will invite over 19 other Mormons to make you feel like shit. You can't tell them to fuck off, because you're afraid you'll offend your "friend" - the nice Mormon who is different from those other assholes.

I don't know. I suppose it can be fun to win arguments with them, but I really don't care to speak to them at all. And you know what? They never come around, ever. I wonder why.

I'm actually feeling a little left out. I had been an active member until my divorce, when I moved into the neighboring stake. I don't remember getting any contact from anyone. It seems like there may have been some VT notes, but I can't even remember that for sure. I decided to take a break from church while I worked out my divorce, and figured out the whole scam in the meantime. I decided to formally resign about two years later for personal reasons and got nothing but the two letters.

I rarely speak to the very active members of my extended family, but they pretty much treat it like a non-issue. I have the feeling they were hoping I would "get over it" but no one ever said anything.

A few months ago, I spotted the missionaries outside my front door (a new place across town) but they never knocked. I didn't have any big desire to speak to them, but I would not have minded.

Maybe they were glad to be rid of me :)

At this point, I certainly wouldn't have a problem talking to anyone from the church.

They are just kids, what is the point?

Go after the MP, THE SP, THE bishop.

Leave the laddies and lassies alone ol' chap!

Much love!

Well, according to the other comments, I'm not.

And they are not just kids. They're grown, and they're trying to tell people how to live their lives. I'm assuming that because you went on a mission and you still go to church you have a sore spot for the missionaries, but personally I wish people had asked me tougher questions while I was out there because I might have left the church sooner.

That's funny, people would tell me all sorts and kinds of things, but I JUST BELIEVED they were not righteous enough.

Oh kolobian one day we shall talk.

Well I do have a soft spot for them cause they don't know better.

Do you understand tongue in cheek? I mean goodness.

Well they are somone's little boy or girl.

No matter how mad I may be about the Church, I know as you may know from personal experience, we just believed!

That is all I am saying.

Don't be coming at me like that.

Chillax, honestly you just give me lady wood [ha ha ha ha ha, I must be growing, cause who would have heard me say that in MORGdom, that is why I mess with you so much!

Hon its all good!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2011 03:16PM by AIC.

You can try to talk with the mishies, but just know that tey are seriously handicapped. Brains washed, dried and on the hanger in the closet.

I enjoy the missionaries coming by and asking me questions. Then I get to answer them and ask a few of my own.

My rule is I don't approach them and I don't start telling them until they ask me.

So far it's only happened twice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2011 03:04PM by baura.

Is their honest bluntness.

On my mission we got many Germans who were very concerned that we were young kids in a cult and that our missions were scams.

They told us to our faces.

Of course we laughed it off, or whatever, but looking back, I'm really happy that someone had the guts to just tell us like it was.

I don't have a problem with missionaries, or even hometeachers coming over, but the ground rules are very clear. They don't get to preach. They don't get to pray, and their testimonies don't get to be borne unless I get to tell them "what I know."

I can understand that others on this board don't want to have contact.

So, yeah, this is just me. I appreciated the honesty, and I'll gladly pass that along.

In our culture we can get young men their age to all sorts of potentially dangerous and harmful things without thinking much about it. Football and military service are examples of two of them. I am not opposed to either but most men in their 30s or older wouldn't make it their first choice. Proving themselves--and believing they will get recognition and respect from it--is part of being a young man, whether it is sports, military service, or a mission.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2011 08:10PM by robertb.

RaptorJesus brought back a great memory for me. When I was going door to door on my mission, I bore my testimony to a very nice man who in turn said to me very sincerely, "I don't doubt that you felt something powerful, but how do you know it was not just your mind working you up into feeling something?"

In my gut, I knew he was right. Of course, I immediately shelved it, as you do, but it struck a deep chord and, looking back, I count it as my first moment of clarity. I wish I could thank him because he was definitely part of the reason I was able to get out early a few years later.

I like those of you who see the missionaries for the unsophisticated kids most of us were. I know I always felt like one of the "lost boys." On the other hand, a few really are self-righteous little #*#*$'s and could probably benefit from a little intelligent confrontation.

too true, too true.

I like to ask them how many times they think they bore their testimony (especially in primary) before they actually prayed and got an "answer."

You don't even have to use the words self-brainwashing. They make the connection all on their own.