You know... a quick way to overcome doubt is for the church to roll out some FACTS.

Provide some proof that the BoM is true.

Pull out the gold plates, pull out some genuine historical artifacts... something!

They don't have anything... all they got left is faith.

This should be interesting to watch...

I'm sure it will be a bunch of faith stories and their advice will be the same...

Read the BoM more! Pay your tithing!! Attend your meetings!!

From the broadcast...

Chipped paint and dents... yeah, that's why we all left the church. Right?

Sure it’s a small cube now, but just straighten out the chassis and pull out a few dents.

Overcome doubt with... um... NOT doubting! Yeah, that's it.

This is a previous talk that the Renlunds gave that appears to be similar to today's devotional:

https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/satellite-training-broadcast/2018/06/doubt-not-but-be-believing?lang=eng

I'm trying harder all the time to accept that there really ARE people who are happy in the church. I was never one of them, not even as a kid. Sure, I had friends in the church and we did a lot of things. Back in the 60s and 70s there were enjoyable youth activities. And I was glad that if I had to be a weirdo, I had other weirdo friends. Although with a couple of exceptions, that's the ONLY reason we were friends, they were not people I would have chosen to hang out with otherwise. But I always wished I hadn't been valiant enough in the pre-existence to be born mormon. I thought my friends who were non-mormon and had really good families and still got to be born in America in the last days were the ones who played their cards right in the pre-existence.

So I've projected myself on most mormons. I've spent a lot of years believing that everyone would want out of mormonism once they had a sure knowledge that it was bunk, cause that sure put me on the apostate track quickly. But I now accept that a whole hellofalot of people really like it, probably more so the ones who live in highly-mormon areas. They are content enough and accept the dues, the ugly undies, the callings they really aren't interested in, etc. as just the way it is. Those people really do not need to be looking at facts.

Nobody ever said "facts are bliss." No, "ignorance is bliss." It truly can be and why shouldn't people be allowed to live in their ignorance? So the mormon church is right to stress to those people that if they truly want to stay and be happy, they need to totally rely on faith and ignore facts. And the best way to do that is convince them that faith and their feelings are actually some kind of factual evidence. OK, it's not, but they do a pretty good job of lying to them to keep them happy.

It's the ones who really aren't happy and see no way out that I feel sorry for and we all know there are thousands of them, most of us having been one. Those are the ones who are desperate for facts because they can't make the break, be happy and move on with their lives until they have the conviction that mormonism is fraudulent. But they are NOT the same group as the ones who really are content in it.

NormaRae Wrote:
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> Those are the ones who are desperate
> for facts because they can't make the break, be
> happy and move on with their lives until they have
> the conviction that mormonism is fraudulent. But
> they are NOT the same group as the ones who really
> are content in it.

I was one of the latter not the former but I believe the former are people who were "trained up" and it took. The other Mormons I would put in the content group are the one for whom, like my mother, find it very useful in strengthening their biases. Nothing like validation for the way you want to see the world to make one happy.

Thank you. That perfectly sums most of my family. They are happier in ignorance than they could be (I think) in facts. It is not my place to try to pull them out of their bliss. If they ask, I answer, but I don't try to start the conversation anymore.

Just wanted to say, wow I totally agree with what you said about growing up in the church and those in it today. Well said!

This leaky boat thing ... couldn't the Catholics and the Protestants say the same thing? In that case why did we need Mormonism's leaky boat? It seems to me the Mormons bought a leaky boat which had enough holes to sink it.

I love this line NormaRae---"Nobody ever said "facts are bliss." No, "ignorance is bliss."

I looked up the traditional definition of the word bliss. It said, "Perfect happiness, Great Joy."

Ignorance brings this? I think not. Whoever said Ignorance is bliss must have been a Mormon leader. If not, they are still carrying that banner high and proud. Blinders anyone?

When ignorance is your goal, then ignorance is not bliss but cowardice.

They also say what you don't know won't hurt you. Tell that to someone who is walking the wrong way on the train tracks and can't hear the engine coming.

I thought I was happy as a Mormon. We all know the rest of the story.

Renlund's parable assumes that people reject the claims of the church because the organization and its leaders not without flaws. It assumes that members demand perfection of the church. In doing this, his story marginalizes people with legitimate complaints or disagreements.

In fact, it is the church that demands prefection of its members.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2019 03:50PM by Lowpriest.

Lowpriest Wrote:
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> It assumes that
> members demand perfection of the church. In doing
> this, his story marginalizes people with
> legitimate complaints or disagreements.

Great point!

> In fact, it is the church that demands prefection
> of its members.

I like this slip - prefect-tion.

The church demands that its members recognize its prefecture unquestioningly.

pre·fect
/ˈprēˌfekt/
noun
noun: prefect; plural noun: prefects
1.
British
in some schools, a senior student authorized to enforce discipline.
synonyms:
monitor; More
praepostor, prepostor
"a school prefect"
2.
a chief officer, magistrate, or regional governor in certain countries.
"the prefect of police"

Between my own errors and unpredictable autocorrection I said something more correct than what I was trying to say.

Another Festivus miracle!

Overcoming doubt with . . . wait for it . . . FAITH!

That's got to be the most insane way to deal with doubt.

The REAL way to overcome doubt is with EVIDENCE. Then either the
doubt goes away or else it is solidified into knowledge. That's
what's happened to us--our "doubts" about the Church have been
confirmed by evidence and now constitutes KNOWLEDGE that the
Church is phony.

Of course if the evidence doesn't lead people to believe and act
like u want them to believe and act, then keep making a lot of
noise about "faith" and how freaking WONDERFUL "faith" is.

If LDSdom had TRUTH and Facts & Love...
It wouldn't need anything else!

Faith could do what she was meant to. Doubt would all but disappear.

Conversations could turn (back) to LOVE, Laughter, and Learning!

People could be free, honest, happy, and at ease. -Hallelujah-

People could WORSHIP - as they
Came to do-thought they were doing.

Instead of being PREACHED AT:
Asinine content & twisted context-
To HAVE FAITH, without a doubt,
That TSCC is phoney, fabricated & useless.
To speak little of harmful/ boring/ wasteful!

Members - and the world-at-large - don't doubt, but KNOW <MORMONISM IS A LIE> and like facts over faith, and fabrications, and false preachers.

So, it's not about faith, but the simple wisdom to know right from wrong. From what Mormonism is saying vs. what it is doing.

M@t

The LDS church is not about love... it is about OBEDIENCE. Not just obedience, however... they demand perfect obedience.

Their 3rd article of faith states this:

"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

One thing that has changed over the years is the tone of their message. They used to really order and dictate with fear and intimidation. Now, they seem to be begging and pleading when they give their talks.

They know that the ride is coming to an end.

Their boat is old and in need of repair yet their condos on the shore look bright and shiny new!

Snickers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know... a quick way to overcome doubt is for
> the church to roll out some FACTS.
>
> Provide some proof that the BoM is true.
>
> Pull out the gold plates, pull out some genuine
> historical artifacts... something!
>
> They don't have anything... all they got left is
> faith.

so LD$ inc rolls out apologetic crap like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AQTr9oB8lw

where Ballard is speaking for all of his executive cohorts at LD$ Inc as in officially speaking for "THE" (MORmON) Church, which is actually a de facto admission that there is NO actual plausible justification or validation for the Book of MORmON (scam)

The LSD Church has consistently failed to legitimately earn trust. That's why they're always working the faith angle so hard.

You're talking about concrete, specific, tangible things they could do to earn trust IF the key claims that the church is always putting forward were actually true and could merit trust.

The claims aren't true. Therefore they don't have solid evidence to put in front of the people. Accordingly, they just demand faith and shift the burden of proof to the people/sheeple, demanding that they "prove" that they have the kind of faith that can make them worthy of god's love and blessings.