I know this is a gross generalization right at the start. Perhaps even a stereotype. I do feel that there is an aspect of mormon culture that creates these dysfunctional behaviors especially in women. Here are a few examples that are in my own family (notice I didn’t have to go far to show you what I mean):
.
Exhibit A
My mom - Sided with my TBM ex-wife in our divorce and wrote letters to the court to explain to the judge why I shouldn’t have any custody or visitation with my kids. She and I didn’t talk again until after my father died (also a terrible person) and she has sort of back-tracked her actions by claiming everyone was lying to her but she still remains a conniving manipulative victim. (mom quote); “I was born with a birth defect (twisted intestines) so I never had the strength to stand up to your father”. Never had a job or an education. Never really tried to better herself in any way other than going to church. Irony is that now I’m taking care of her since the TBM element in my family ran out of charity.

Exhibit B
My Sister - Had our parents living with her for a time in SLC but while they were in her charge she drained them of their ENTIRE life’s savings. Approx - $200k or so. Keep in mind that my parents collect social security that my sister also spends. Their medical issues are not that costly but that said I still am not sure what my father died of. Once the money ran out and our father died she kicked mom to the curb. Actually she put her in an assisted living facility and refused to talk to her over the fact that mom finally started to try to get some of the money back that my sister stole. I know this is elder abuse. My mom does not want to press charges. Apparently my mom gets more out of the situation by being a victim.

Exhibit C
My ex-wife - Suffers from Borderline Personality Disorder so there’s that. A true narcissist and a nightmare. Anyone who has ever been in a relationship with someone suffering from BPD knows what I’m talking about. Married some other TBM stooge a week after our divorce was final. Drained him of all his credit and divorced him a few years later. I was going to warn him but I wanted them to get married so I wouldn't pay alimony. Perhaps I’m evil too.

Exhibit D
My brother’s wife - Spends money like a fiend. Of course she has no job or any means of helping with the debt they have racked up. She has home-schooled their kids but to a terrible standard. Their youngest one is a senior in high-school and can’t pass the exams to get her high-school diploma. It looks like she will need another year or two to get it. I feel like she handicaps her own kids so she will have friends around. She has recently told my brother she wants a divorce now that the kids are mostly grown up. Not that divorce is a bad thing. But she is a lot like my ex-wife and my brother may not be aware of the world-of-hurt that is heading his way.

I could go on but I wanted to stop with just my own nuclear family. If I had more moms and sisters I would list them here. Fortunately I just have this lot and that’s it.

I suspect that because LDS women have no power they develop unhealthy habits to get their power back through controlling behaviors like manipulation, victimhood, financial back-dooring, and the like. Is it just me? Perhaps this phenomenon is just in my own family and has nothing to do with their being LDS.

I would put the LDS men in my family in here too but they honestly don’t seem as bad. Perhaps because they have all the power and they can walk around being the “nice guy” and have their women do all the dirty work.

I do not hate women. My second wife is a wonderful and strong woman with a heart of gold. She can’t stand the TBM women in my family either.

Any other stories? Is there any help for working with my 78-year old mother to get her to not be such a selfish, conniving victim?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2019 09:23PM by praydude.

You may want to check out some Incel forums.

I think you will find your people.

praydude,

You have previously explained the situation with your wife and it makes sense to me because I have studied, and seen, borderlines and their families over long stretches of time.

I'm going to answer in two parts. First, your family. My belief is that people who grow up in families with dysfunctional parents are often vulnerable to such people when they reach maturity and start dating. A woman with an abusive father may at some subconscious level feel she "fits" with an abusive lover. A man who grew up under an unstable mother is disproportionately likely to marry a troubled woman. I have seen more than one case in which sons of a single borderline do their very best to avoid disaster but ultimately end up marrying women who resemble their mother in important ways, so you see multiple siblings married to borderlines--which would statistically seem highly improbable. Something like that may have happened in your family.

Second, the church. My hunch is that the church thrives on borderlines and narcissists. Narcissists become church leaders, as we know. Borderlines become followers: they want to join a "movement" that gives simple answers to big questions, gives them identity, and provides a sense of community. They also, paradoxically, feel a "fit" with groups that are constantly finding fault with them.

The great thing for the church is that the same childhood produces narcissists and borderlines (and sociopaths). How do you do that? Put intense pressure on mothers, who tend to get depressed and can't give their children the time and acceptance and love they need in their first 2-3 years. Pull the father out of the home so he cannot supplement the caregiving, apply financial stress so everyone is anxious and angry. Then, as the children grow, tell them that they are inadequate and must prove their value by serving the church. Make God's love conditional.

Is it reasonable that the frequency of dysfunctional families is higher in Mormonism than elsewhere? I surely think so. If the prevalence of BPD in the general population is one or two percent, I would not be surprised if it is several times that in the LDS church. And of course, there would be another large percentage of people who are not strictly borderlines but are close to that diagnosis.




*I'm going to add an important caveat here. I am assuming women are borderlines because that is the way you posed the question. Historically the psychological profession has assumed women are 10X as likely to suffer from BPD than men. That assumption, specialists are now realizing, is wrong. BPD is probably roughly as common among men as women although it manifests somewhat differently. So much of what I wrote could, with some amendment, apply to men as well.

A lot of people, particularly men, have noticed many of these problems and started a movement in reaction -- they call the movement MGTOW (men going their own way). There's a lot of MGTOW content out there, but this is a quite excellent intro video to it regarding many of the issues you mentioned:

http://www.manbook.biz/2018/11/15/gm0060-best-ever-example-of-how-much-women-hate-men-mgtow/

and a good youtube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_OGIvbOor3bUybYaUTIo3w/videos

Expect to be labeled a misogynist.

There are bad men and bad women. Bad men are evil and abusive.
Bad women are victims of something else.

There you go.

There is something going on in Mormonism though, that's not real borderline personality disorder, but it seems to cause people--women--to mimic it. I can talk only about women because I'm around them much more, but I can see it being directly conditioned into young women. They aren't mentally ill, but they seem to be encouraged to act like it. There's a histrionic aspect that gets developed along with a stunning lack of objectivity. Playing the victim for attention and sympathy seems really common.

For example, your mom's siding with your ex over the kids. You emphasize the lack of loyalty your mom showed by siding with the ex. But what I notice--and I see it over-and-over--is the egotism of writing the letter. I can't tell you the number of useless, silly letters I've read, or emails, where the TBM seems completely unaware of how little status they have and how their opinion means absolutely nothing to the recipient, but the letter-writer clearly believes they've really "shown them."

About a month ago, a TBM woman was explaining how she'd called her husband's former business partner to give him a piece of her mind about how he'd done her husband dirty. I pushed back just a little to ask her why she thought he cared what some guy's wife thought about him. She explained to me that he and she were both TBM and had certain "standards" so when she pointed out how he had violated them! Well, he knew! She was certain that her excoriating him over his failings must have filled him with remorse, because...reasons. I couldn't imagine why she thought she had any standing with this guy that she could jerk his chain. I just think she's delusional about her centrality in the lives of others. She's not mentally ill, but she can act like it.

This is just one example. Something about the groupthink makes this happen.

Probably for the same reason that my Super MORmON aunt was such a bitch.

My super MORmON aunt and her sister my super MORmON female parent were/ are two really disgusting manipulative BITCHES who make sure they stay tightly wrapped up in and defending the ideals and doctUrines of MORmONISM in order to cloak and justify their very poor highly selfish behavior.

As inspired by directives by MORmON leaders at the time, My super asshole MORmON convert male parent blindsided his NEVER Mormon single parent sister with a demand for 2000 $ for his son's missionary savings fund. When she flatly and directly and appropriately told Captain ass hole that such a demand was NOT a realistic expectation, he called her a bitch.


As inspired by directives by MORmON leaders, Capt Asshole also asked my mom's super MORmON sister for some money for the same cause. That aunt's husband was a very successful PhD white collar professional, making tons more money than his single parent sister. That MORmON aunt made up some ultra pathetic BS excuse about not being able to contribute,even though she would (supposedly) really really like to, because her big shot husband's tax deductions for his paycheck were all computerized. Capt Ass hole's reaction? -OH, OH, OH, please excuse us, we did not realize that computers were involved in the situation !!!! .....making things written in stone!!!! Please forgive us !!!

So, who was the real bitch in these stories???

praydude Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Any other stories? Is there any help for working
> with my 78-year old mother to get her to not be
> such a selfish, conniving victim?

yah, when she is finally completely abandoned to starve to death and freeze to death along the roadside some place, have her ask Big shot MORmON PRofit Russell Nelson if she can have one of the many unoccupied units of LD$ Inc's luxury condo tower at City Creek Center Mall. when she needs food have her get it from the LD$ Inc food bank. have a MORmON drive her there as part of their "ministering" assignment.

praydude Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I suspect that because LDS women have no power
> they develop unhealthy habits to get their power
> back through controlling behaviors like
> manipulation, victimhood, financial back-dooring,
> and the like. Is it just me? Perhaps this
> phenomenon is just in my own family and has
> nothing to do with their being LDS.

> Any other stories?

I disagree that one gender is more susceptible to "unhealthy habits to get their power back through controlling behaviors like manipulation, victimhood, financial back-dooring" because people are individuals and life isn't so cause and effect.

But here is another interesting gender-specific take on Mormon women.

https://repository.asu.edu/attachments/93635/content//tmp/package-MaRgkt/Daughtrey_asu_0010E_11694.pdf

At 78 your mom is not likely to change significantly. It's possible, but not likely.

I want to comment on the 200K. It seems like a lot, but it really isn't to a retired person. Invested properly (which is a big *if*) in a high quality mutual fund with a mix of stocks and bonds, you could realistically expect an average 5% return a year. So that's a 10K income before taxes. Add that to Social Security and a home that is paid off, and it *might* work in a low cost of living area. Or not.

And lots of people don't have a clue about how to invest well. They might put all the money in a low-paying CD. Or they might follow the advice of a commissioned salesman who wants to push his financial product regardless of quality. They might see 200k and figure that there is plenty of money to write checks for furniture, or travel, or other wants or needs.

And then there is inflation. Live to age 78, and your money doesn't go nearly as far as it used to. And the cost of living goes nowhere but up.

Just something to consider. It may be that your sister was simply not very good with managing your parents' money, or that they were not very good about managing it. It's not unusual.

men. I've had it tonight with my "ex," who left me, cheated on me from almost the word go with other men. He chose to marry me knowing who he was. He did tell me, but how was I to KNOW the REALITY?

I can divorce him and take him for half his pension and half his 401K and I feel like doing so tonight. He can be such a total ass.

Being gay doesn't make you a bastard. He just is one. His whole family are a bunch of BPDs or narcissists. Oh my hell!! His kids used to say he was more like a distant uncle than a father--from age 10 until about age 22. My son still thinks he can be a total ass. My TBM daughter gets along with him, but obviously doesn't accept him as he is. I told my niece to fight for custody those growing up years if something should happen to me, and OUR KIDS said, "He doesn't want us. She won't have to fight for us." I didn't have to say a damn thing about him. He treated us all like garbage.

So for hell sakes don't think it is just WOMEN. Ever get asked if you masturbate by a bishop? I rest my case.

Yea, following along with what others said, life isn’t so cause and effect. Ascribing gender as the reason for people being the way they are is incredibly narrow minded. It’s nature and nurture.

I think these problems exist in a spectrum across many conservative religious minded folk, not just Mormons. Issues of control, fervent religious devotion, various financial issues... honestly, ‘evangelical’ would come to my mind first if I weren’t raised Mormon.

I understand this is the website to discuss Mormon issues but my point is that the issue raised here is not necessarily directly related to being raised in Mormonism. Maybe it’s more about being an American, or the socio-cultural struggle that everyone has to deal with in The year 2019, I know that’s incredibly broad...

I notice a tendency, and I’m sure I’m guilty of doing it as well, of people to tackle issues here not just from the Mormon perspective, but as though the issue exists ONLY because of or is only borne of Mormonism. This would be an example. This isn’t some weird Mormon specific thing (and we know there are weird Mormon specific things, although when you get down to it getting force fed bullshit and then figuring out what’s really going on is a pretty old story).

And like cl2 said, if you want to get into damaging gender specific Mormon behaviors, Bishop perverts are probably worse. That can fuck up plenty of boys and girls.


Anyway that’s my broad take.

You are clearly right that all these problems are complex and stretch beyond Mormonism. The interesting question, though, is whether Mormonism increases the probabilities of some sorts of dysfunction.

I believe the answer is yes. It is hard for us who spent significant time on the inside to see ourselves with strict objectivity, but there is value in trying to sort it out even if our surmises are only informed speculation.

I hear you. All of the women in my family are such emotionally abusive witches. They’ve all been divorced multiple times and are so controlling, overly critical, and downright unpleasant.

Not that the men in my family are any better.

It’s just a mess of abusive, crappy people. I can’t wait to get out of the state and break off contact.

In my life experiences, the Mormon men were much more physically and mentally abusive to me and my children. They dominated us with their cult lies of male superiority, and self-anointed "authority". Mormon men were deliberately intimidating and threatening to us. I was a single mother, with no husband to protect us. My Mormon brother bullied and tortured me. My Mormon husband beat me. My Mormon nephew stole money from me. These men never stopped their criminal behavior. Never.

I used to like almost everyone, and I used to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but not anymore. I admit that I'm prejudiced against Mormons. Instead of trying to overcome my prejudice and trying to be friends with them, and allowing them into my life, I avoid them. This protects my happiness, my privacy, my relationships, my business, my assets--for my children, too. Rather than being prejudiced, which means pre-judging, I am WARY of Mormons, which is post-judging, after being abused by Mormons.

Mormon women can be equally as nasty, phony, manipulative, and unpleasant as the men, but I've had only a few steal from me (at BYU), and never had any physical violence or bullying. Their nasty gossip and defamation of character against me never succeeded, though.

The Mormons weren't able to ruin my career when I left, because I was not doing business with Mormons at all.

The Mormons couldn't come between me and my children, because my kids never believed in the first place, and we all left together.

"Terrible people" yes. Mormon males and females, both.

I had 2 attempted rapes at BYU. Not "date rape", but the violent kind, when I was attacked and beaten. One rapist broke my arm, but some football player friends heard me screaming, and they rescued me. The other, I kicked him in the shin and outran him.

Mormon men. I was never attacked or raped at the other universities I attended, or in the big California city I lived in, or hiking alone in the forest, or late at night at the office parking lot--nowhere--never. Only at BYU, by Mormons. One was engaged to a former dorm-mate. The other was a stalker in my ward, that I turned down for dates.