Utah's zero tolerance policy......

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2019/03/07/utah-teacher-forces-boy-to-wipe-ash-wednesday-cross-off-his-forehead/23686991/

Perfect example of Mormons unlettered approach to other religions.

One must wonder how LDS Inc would react if a teacher (or emoloyer) commanded removal of temple garments.

Only in Utah kids.

I grew up in the Morridor. It isn't like there are no Catholics around. They were then and they are now. You can't be alive and not know about Ash Wednesday and Lent. LOL.

Not surprised.

Some are so dumb, but that teacher took it to the next level without listening to her pupil.

My experience with a palm tree tie clip on Palm Sunday as a mormon. https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1963104,1963576#msg-1963576

Yup. god wants you to put dirt on your forehead. That makes about as much sense as jews swinging chickens over their heads. What could possibly go wrong.

But it's about treating others with respect. The ash cross on the forehead is symbolic. No one has to agree with it, but it crosses so many lines to force someone to alter their body like that. It's like telling a Muslim girl to remove her hijab. Both practices are non-disruptive to the classroom environment. The teacher should've minded her own business.

Just what we need ... religious overtones in schools.
Yes they are disruptive.

When I was in high school, my family moved from an area that was probably as close to all-Protestant as it got in the US to an area with lots of Catholics. On Ash Wednesday, most of those students went to a morning ceremony and came to school one class late (excused) with an ash cross on their foreheads. Although the practice was completely new to me, it didn't disrupt anyone except the first-period teachers, some of whom were also Catholic, and hopefully all of whom believed in freedom of religion. It seemed a bit silly and over-the-top to me then, and still does, but no, it was not a disruption to the process of education.

Most public school teachers are used to it. One of the first rites of passage for a public school teacher is having a JW student sit down during the pledge, or not being allowed to participate in any holiday activities. I've never had any student's religious observance be a distraction to the class.

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just what we need ... religious overtones in
> schools.
> Yes they are disruptive.


they are disruptive in what way? Because you say so? If some kid having an Ash Wednesday cross can be considered " disruptive" then damn near anything could be . Try reading Tinker v Des Moines to get information on what type of speech is OK in a public school and what is not . That is the legal standard not your intolerant atheistic opinion

As a non believer myself this is the kind of thing that pisses me off about some Athiests . intolerance on steroids .

I think some of them genuinely don't see the consequences of where their thinking would lead. It would take us to a very dark place, and not where they'd expect at all. Impinging on people's personal lives like this is what a dictatorship does, and a dictatorship would start interfering in the lives of atheists as well, but not in the way that they'd like. But by then it would be too late.

Religions such as Catholicism and Judaism tend to go into decline when they're *not* persecuted. When they are, it often strengthens the resolve of those who remain and creates a siege mentality. Catholicism is built on the idea of martyrs. Mormonism is like this to some extent too.

Exactly

If we took this line on religious freedom, we'd be living in a dictatorship no better than China.

I'm not a fan of it, but shutting down people's culture just because we don't like it, is not democracy or freedom. Ash on the forehead by itself doesn't harm anyone else, doesn't disrupt class etc.

Agree.

I think obvious displays of religious icons ... in a public school... shouldn't be allowed, for at least 2 reasons:

- they are a distraction from learning which is the purpose of being there.

- Some people might MIGHT take this as some sort of endorsement of the symbol(s) involved. That's a danger whenever there is a connection between religion & a public entity.


However, requiring that be done in view of others is a serious mistake, the teacher should be at least reprimanded.

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think obvious displays of religious icons ... in
> a public school... shouldn't be allowed, for at
> least 2 reasons:
>
> - they are a distraction from learning which is
> the purpose of being there.
>
> - Some people might MIGHT take this as some sort
> of endorsement of the symbol(s) involved. That's a
> danger whenever there is a connection between
> religion & a public entity.
>
>
> However, requiring that be done in view of others
> is a serious mistake, the teacher should be at
> least reprimanded.

That is a very low bar for what you consider to be a " distraction" A student wearing a religious symbol is protected speech and religious freedom under the First Amendment . it is in no way the school itself endorsing religion. it is the school following the Constition and the students rights . A student saying a prayer out loud during instruction would be considered a disruption because it would materially interfere with the main purpose of what a school is Please read a,SCOTUS case Tiner v Des Moines Scool District for the legal standard as to what is disruptive in public school and what is not

So you feel cross earrings or necklaces should not be worn. CTR rings or bracelets not be worn. Head coverings of any kind should not be worn.
I grew up and still live in Utah. I had friends in high school that were catholic. They had crosses on their foreheads for Ash Wednesdays. I asked one of them what it was and he explained the reason why and the significance. It was not a distraction in any of my classes with them. It was also a teaching moment for me and I very much appreciated to have been taught.
I never cared what religion my friends were or what religious symbols they wore. I was never distracted by them during school.

Why do you think the teacher would know anything about it? Never paid any attention and only noticed this happening where I lived when I was in my 40's - Kansas location and apparently it has been going on all the years I have lived here.

Unless you are part of those doing it you don't pay attention. First time I noticed it I told the guy he had dirt on his forehead - and he explained what it was. I had never heard of it before this.

"Why do you think the teacher would know anything about it?"

Why? Because the teacher is LDS. You know, the new, Christian mormons. She should know all about Easter and Ash Wednesday-right?
Even if she was ignorant, apparently, of the tradition, she should have paused after the kid explained it to her. And then, before making him wipe it off, she should've consulted her superiors. Go back East, where there's a considerable Jewish population. There are a lot of Jewish holidays and traditions that most non-jews don't understand. But, teachers and employers do not deny Jews their rights to religious traditions. This teacher needs an education in both the First Amendment and religious traditions.

First, what adult hasn't heard of Ash Wednesday? Its not just Catholics, but some Methodists, Anglicans, etc, also have this, though participation rates probably aren't as high as in the Catholic population.
The child said it was part of a religious service so even if she never heard of the significance of ashes on the forehead she should have stopped right there.
Yeah, the way its done it often just looks like a smudge, but regardless don't mess with it!

It isn't only schools where this is observed on Ash Wednesday. Downtowns of inner cities you'll see business people and people going about their business wearing the charcoal smear on their foreheads on Ash Wednesday.

When I worked in Manhattan near Wall Street for most of a decade it was commonplace there too to see stockbrokers and others walking down the sidewalk wearing the smudge on Ash Wednesday.

It doesn't bother anyone. It's freedom of expression and they're practicing their religion openly without proselytizing.

There are churches in downtowns where the same business people go to worship throughout the week and pray on their breaks and lunches. No big deal. It's been that way since the founding of this country.

For someone who claims to be educated and a school teacher, that is just ignorance not to know what Ash Wednesday is or the symbolism behind the smudge. It's also intolerant and bigoted to expect the child wipe it off in front of his peers as well as disrespectful and humiliating.

It's a violation of his First Amendment rights and civil rights.

"Public primary and secondary schools, as well as public colleges and universities, should be open to all members of the public, regardless of their faith. Students should not face discrimination or harassment because of their faith background, their beliefs, their distinctive religious dress, or their religious expression.

The Civil Rights Division's Educational Opportunities Section enforces Title IV of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination based on religion in public primary and secondary schools, as well as public colleges and universities. Subsection (a)(1) authorizes the Attorney General to bring suit in response to a written complaint by a parent that a child is being "deprived by a school board of the equal protection of the laws." Subsection (a)(2) permits the Attorney General to bring suit upon receiving a written complaint that a student has been "denied admission to or not permitted to continue in attendance at a public college by reason of race, color, religion, sex or national origin." The Attorney General has delegated this authority to the Civil Rights Division.

Additionally, Title IX of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 permits the Attorney General to intervene in any action in federal court, involving any subject matter, "seeking relief from the denial of equal protection of the laws under the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution on account of race, color, religion, sex or national origin," if such intervention is timely made and the Attorney General certifies that the case is of "general public importance." Enforcement of this provision also has been delegated to the Civil Rights Division, and the Division has participated in a number of education-related religious discrimination cases under Title IX.

Some of the types of cases handled by the Civil Rights Division:

Harassment: Title IV may be violated when teachers harass students because of their faith, or, in some cases, when schools are deliberately indifferent to pervasive student-on-student-harassment. For example, the Civil Rights Division reached a settlement in March 2005 with the Cape Henlopen, Delaware School District in a harassment case involving a fourth-grade Muslim student. The student filed a complaint with the Civil Rights Division that she had been harassed by her teacher about her faith in front of her class, including being ridiculed because her mother wore a headscarf. As a result, the student was repeatedly harassed by other students and missed several weeks of school due to emotional distress. The student alleged that the school failed to take adequate remedial action. The settlement required programs for teaching religious tolerance for both teachers and students, and special training and monitoring for the teacher at issue."

https://www.justice.gov/crt/combating-religious-discrimination-and-protecting-religious-freedom-20

Art Cashin; I think he works for S&P, he sometimes reports from the floor of the NY Stock Exchange or on the set of the CNBC business reports about the mood of traders and what they are doing. Didn't happen to see a report from him on Wednesday, but I think it was last year he was actually on-air with ashes -- thought that was pretty unusual.

There were a number of people on MSNBC wearing crosses on their foreheads. I also notes last year when the school shooting took place on Ash Wednesday that many of the people being interviewed had crosses.

I maintain that this is bad parenting in addition to bad schooling.

To so overtly display religious symbology in a school setting can absolutely be disruptive. And in this case with all of his classmates inquiring about the symbol I can see how this would have perturbed the teacher. I know that many have brought up the CTR ring example or the garment example but please tell me how a temporary forehead tattoo is the same as underwear or a ring.

These parents sent their child to school fully aware of the attention that this might bring in the class. I'll bet their super happy that it has grown to these proportions. I find it reprehensible and wrong for them to subject their young child to this. Clearly the child wasn't prepared to explain what he was doing to his classmates and teacher. Clearly this boy was in a situation that was too big for him. And now his faith has been swelled and his parents are overjoyed that they subjected him to this embarrassing situation. Shame on these parents.

The teacher also effed up and needs some help diffusing situations like this. But if this teacher gets anything more than a couple of coaching sessions and some peer feedback it will be overreach and reaction on the part of the school district.

As far as the legal ramifications. The silly poster who keeps on bringing up the Korean war protest hasn't yet grasped that there is an equally strong provision in the fist amendment that the court hasn't ruled on. You give me a case where the court ruled on the balance between the exercise clause and the establishment clause. You'll find that the establishment clause wins more than it looses against the exercise clause.

And the civil rights argument is mute because this boy's civil rights were not infringed. He was just embarrassed.

Circling back to the bad parenting. Any parent who teaches their child that being ridiculously overt about their belief is a good thing needs to reconsider how they are raising their children.

I have taught in schools, good and bad for nearly forty years. I have dealt with many,many distractions and never did one involve a religious symbol.

That includes ash marks, crosses, hijabs, stars of David, CTR rings and even visable temple garments

Yup. None of that shit belongs in public schools. Period !
So tell us about the stuff from religions that YOU don't like.

That means that this must not have been a distraction then, right?

The teacher was a bonehead but the boneheadedness didn't just happen. The teacher made her mistake for some reason. Are you saying that it was bigotry? Because I'm saying that all of a kid's classmates asking a kid about a temporary forehead tattoo might get distracting fast.

It became a distraction solely because of the teacher.

There are lots of ways of stopping the questions, if that was her issue. It involves being in charge and telling the kids to get back to work. As suggested below,she could have asked the boy to explain it to the class if he wished and then it and end it. If he was unwilling, she could have googled it and explained it briefly? Problem solved and the kids learned something!

If the kids were asking about it as 4th graders are likely to do, how about giving the boy a few minutes to explain and then ending the discussion? It would have been an educational moment, the other kids would have learned something and the amount of time spent on the issue would have been negligible.

bona DEA unregistered Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the kids were asking about it as 4th graders
> are likely to do, how about giving the boy a few
> minutes to explain and then ending the discussion?
> It would have been an educational moment, the
> other kids would have learned something and the
> amount of time spent on the issue would have been
> negligible.

This (making it a learning moment for the class) would be an excellent way to deal with this kind of situation, especially if care is taken about the child suddenly being put "in the spotlight."

Given the population of the USA, it would seem to me that teachers in general should be emotionally prepared to deal with these kinds of situations as they arise.

Hijabs, for sure. Also: kippot on boys.

The goal should be preserving the child's physical and personal integrity, and civic rights, while [gently and considerately] educating the class at large about our multi-varied fellow citizens, and at least some of the many different ways they live THEIR lives.

Districts need to educate employees about religious customs and holidays of minorities in their schools. In Utah, this includes non Mormons. Of course the boy shouldn't be forced to speak to the class, but he could have been given an opportunity so the questions didn't go on all day. If the teacher had been familiar with Lent, she could have explained it herself.

Hopefully all other teachers and school districts took note of this incident. How embarrassing for everyone involved.

Or hopefully we can hire teachers who are socially and culturally aware of Ash Wednesday and other religious observances . A person need not be religious themselves to be aware . this teacher was both ignorant and on a power trip, violating civil rights of the student and yes students do have civil rights

Better to hire teachers who can teach and send everyone a memo on respecting Ash Wed. practices.

It just shows the ignorance and arrogance of some Utah Mormons. I grew up in California and I had Catholic friends. Ash Wednesday was a big deal for them. After leaving the LDS Church, I attended a Presbyterian Church for a couple of years. We had a special worship service on Ash Wednesday, Palm Sunday, and Easter for our congregation. Our congregation took the Lent season seriously. We ended it with a big worship service on Easter Sunday. We had a breakfast before the service. The Mormon Church pays lip service to Easter and may just have lame sacrament meeting with maybe the ward choir singing one hymn. The speakers will probably talk more about the Church than about Christ. I'm no longer religious, but most Christian Churches celebrate and put much importance on Easter than Mormons do.

From CNN:

"The district added that it called its director of educational equity, who is also an ordained Catholic deacon. He reapplied the ash cross to Williams' forehead that afternoon."

Hadn't heard of a "director of educational equity" before today. Who just happens to be an ordained Catholic deacon. Talk about 'saving graces,' and faces!

:o)

Now that’s what I call damage control.

The church wants people to accept their “ message”, but not respecting others? This would of been a great lesson for him to explain to the class what it was and got the other kids to talk about their traditions or beliefs. If that’s a distraction, what about kids nowadays with weird haircuts? My 7 year old nephew is always getting Mohawks, head shaved, patterns razored on his head, like sports teams. A lot of kids also go to school with temporary tattoos, like ninja turtles, little mermaid, etc. You should of seen some of the elementary kids hairstyles at their last recital.

I've personally never seen a kid get distracted by a religious expression. But I have seen kids get distracted by certain hairstyles, i.e. large, dyed Mohawks and also certain styles of dress and hair ornaments. Yes, kids should have some freedom of expression, but I wish parents would realize that we are trying to keep kids focused on learning in a business-like environment. We are not hosting a party.

I think these symbols are intended to make the person display the religion.

There are plenty of ways a person can keep their religion to themselves but no, they don't want to. They want the person to be in a situation where they have to be defending, displaying and showing submission to the religion. This is smack dab in the middle of the forehead instead of something that wouldn't show. They could have used water symbolic for ash. They could have touched the top of the head or finger or behind an ear (never mind they are all OK with the kid being touched at all) but no- that wouldn't be a sign for everyone and their dog to have to see.

These symbols are making a statement, just like the kid who is making a statement with crazy hair. It's intended to let others know something about them. As usual, religion gets special treatment.

The kid can't see the cross on his own forehead. It's intended to be in everyone's face that the kid did the religious ritual. Pretending others are not supposed to notice is not reasonable. The kid was set up and so was the teacher.

Oh, come on. It is a small mark on the forehead and no more noticeable than a small piece of jewelry. A lot of the time it is covered by the hair and not really visable. As several teachers on this thread have said, it has never been a distraction in their experience.People have a right to reasonable displays and statements in dress-even of religion.
How is religion getting special treatment when kids wear all sorts.of things to school ,such as pink haair, Mohawks crazy clothes and jewelry and do so legally?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2019 02:33PM by bona dea.

I see it as no different than wearing a star of David or Christian cross as jewelry attire.

Agee. Within reason people, including students, should be allowed to express their diversity.

Just to illustrate a point:

As long as a child wearing a colander on his head, a Satan necklace, or a pentagram on his forehead would be fine using the same rationale, I can see this lenience for expression.

I think we need to make sure we are willing to be consistent and not only favor religious views someone defines "reasonable" conventional religious expressions.

It opens a can of worms either way. I have empathy for the teachers trying to juggle everyone's views and the kids who are set up to be religious billboards.

Wearing jewelry or symbolic garb is way of asking people to notice their religion or views which comes with questions or assumptions. If my kid goes to school with a colander on his head, are other parents going to be thrilled when their kid comes home asking about the flying spaghetti monster? Maybe, but they might say something that will damage their child's view of my kid. As a parent, I wouldn't set my kid up like that.

Religion is personal and doesn't need to be in everyone's face. I think they must like to be questioned or mocked and the victim mentality it triggers. Maybe they need a constant reminder (in the case of rings and necklaces) that they are supposed to be thinking about their religion all the time. Maybe they see it as a symbol of pride or identity which seems sort of tribal.

In the Catholic schools here, everyone has to dress alike with a uniform which isn't exactly a sign that they like allow self expression. I see the benefits and drawbacks of uniforms. Maybe they would allow a colander, pentagram drawn in red lipstick on a forehead or burka in a Catholic school nowadays. It goes both ways if they are asking for tolerance.

Wearing a colendar on your head would cause a distraction because it is stupid and designed to mock others..If you can't see the difference I don't know what to say.A religion that is long established and has followers who actually believe is different than making a mockery of religion in order to make fun of believers. As for Satanic symbols, that is another issue where they might have a case if they were not causing a disruption of advocating illegal acts such as desecration or rape.The.courts can figure that one out. Many people wouldn't notice if the symbol were small and the kid wasn't making an issue of it and if they did notice, they may not even know what it is. Satanism, as opposed to witchcraft, does at times practice or at least advocate things that are illegal.Maybe not all Satanists, but if they do, they do not have protection.
BTW, I never said a kid should wear whatever they want. Schools have dress codes. Sometimes I agree with them. Other times I dont get it.As for private schools, the rules and rights are different and that includes secular private schools. I am not sure that I like uniforms anyway

bd said: >"Wearing a colendar on your head would cause a distraction because it is stupid and designed to mock others..If you can't see the difference I don't know what to say.A religion that is long established and has followers who actually believe is different than making a mockery of religion in order to make fun of believers."

I think the ashes on the forehead is just as stupid. Catholics don't get to define stupid with the giant list of nonsense they do.

The Catholics invented hell for people who don't believe. How's that for derisive mocking of others? No mocking can top that, IMO.

I'm just saying we should think about what equal application really means. You don't know what the kid with the colander has been indoctrinated to believe and I'm not comfortable with only the "established" socially acceptable religions getting a pass.

Bottom line is that the.Constitution protects religious expression. It doesn't protect wearing kitchen.utensils on your head. Also, note, no teacher on this board has reported a.problem with Ash Wednesday.If it should become a distraction,schools will decide whether it is allowed. Wearing a collendar to school to mock religious kids is a form of bullying and is certainly not appropriate for school.I am betting it would be a real disruption too. We are well aware you consider religion stupid, but that doesn't nullify the Constitution. If you don't like the ashes don't wear them and don't look at them. Feel free to.wear a collendar if you wish, but don't bring it to my class. Good God.You are smarter than that.

Schools aren't perfect but dress codes are becoming more lenient and kids in the district where I work wear pretty much what they like it it isn't causing a problem, is not extremely revealing or advocates drugs, alcohol or tobacco-all of which are illegal for minors.I don't agree with all of the rules all of the time, but schools try. So far religious.jewelry and crosses.on Ash Wed have not been a problem.Do we really want to.give the kids.the Constitutional right to wear pasta strainer on their heads of times at string bikinis to school just to make them.equal to religious people wearing jewelry?
I guess I.am asking what rights secular kids are.missing because believers wear religious jewelry etc. They don't have to wear it and, except in private schools both religious and secular and a few.public schools which require uniforms of sorts, can wear what they like within reason



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2019 06:10PM by bona dea.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bottom line is that the.Constitution protects
> religious expression. It doesn't protect wearing
> kitchen.utensils on your head.

And if wearing kitchen utensils on your head were religious expression, regardless of how stupid you think it is, would you then feel that it is protected? The little boy who's parents sent him to school with dirt on his forehead might even have been angry at the school for allowing a satirical take on their own religion. In addition the school can tell the boy to wipe his forehead clean and not have any issue with the constitution. They must only be consistent in their rules.


> Also, note, no
> teacher on this board has reported a.problem with
> Ash Wednesday.If it should become a
> distraction,schools will decide whether it is
> allowed.

So the school does get to decide? Make up you're mind?

Also note that I haven't read one example on this board of a child wearing dirt on their forehead for Ash Wednesday. In fact it has been a ton of anecdotes and examples of adults.

> Wearing a collendar to school to mock
> religious kids is a form of bullying and is
> certainly not appropriate for school.

And this is the whole point. This is why the ash on the child's forehead was a distraction. Overt displays of religious devotions are by their very nature a form of bullying and not appropriate for school. It is no different than someone getting up and bearing their testimony in school. There is absolutly no place for this behavior in a school setting.

> I am betting
> it would be a real disruption too. We are well
> aware you consider religion stupid, but that
> doesn't nullify the Constitution.

For the umpteenth time, the Constitution requires that the school not endorse any religion. So they either allow all of it or none of it. It isn't up to the school to tell a believer that their belief is to stupid to endorse. So if a kid wanted to wear a colander they either allow it or they don't let anyone express their religion in such a manner.

> If you don't
> like the ashes don't wear them and don't look at
> them. Feel free to.wear a collendar if you wish,
> but don't bring it to my class. Good God.You are
> smarter than that.

You fail to understand why the dirt was disruptive but you understand why the colander is. I thought you were smarter than that.

How about a collander button about the size of a half dollar with FSM on it ?

The rules for private and public schools are very different . private schools can have pretty much any rules they want .

One of my students comes from a pagan family and wears a Hammer of Thor pendant every day. She was surprised that I know what it is. I want her to feel included so when I came across an interesting web article about a Norse burial site (complete with a Hammer of Thor,) I beckoned her to my desk to show it to her. Her parents write notes of excuse for their religious holidays. Accommodating her and her family is no big deal. I don't think that the other students even notice her pendant.

makes me wonder...

What about a student who wants to wear a burka or a hijab to a public school...

We have many Muslim students and many of the girls wear long dresses and the hijab with no issues. Burkas cover the whole face. I have never seen that. It would probably be seen as a security issue.

Hijabs are not an issue. We had a teacher that wore a hijab. I have no idea about burkas or similar forms of dress. I have never come across a student who wanted to wear that. I imagine that would be addressed by higher-ups if the need arose.

Kids and parents make plenty of mistakes and schools and teachers try to handle them with dignity. If kids see teachers demeaned for a mistake, it puts them on edge and they worry about being humiliated if they make a mistake.

The students, public and parents need reassurance that this situation is under control and that it won't happen again. Invite them to come in and talk about it if they choose. There's not need to force the teacher to wear some childish dunce cap to stand up to name calling or other public humiliation.