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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: June 11, 2019 09:53PM

Being an idealistic & romantic type guy, I have some ideas, what are Yours?

my thoughts, to me:

true romantic love starts with desires & skills, both are necessary.

We think that hormones provide the desire(s), do we agree?
for guys, this is often associated with testosterone & getting aroused... I'm not so sure about a woman's desires.

Skills means a happy, healthy childhood to start with, learning & developing 'what works' & how, what doesn't work in relationships...

If not learned in childhood, this will be a challenge.

then, a couple has to find & develop Paths to serving & sharing with each other: work & recreation - relaxation, raising kids, etc.


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Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: June 11, 2019 10:11PM

I think most TBMs get married so young that, for young men anyway, "hotness" is all that matters. I know I was probably in my 30s before I realized that I should consider what a woman's opinions were on politics, religion, etc (i.e. compatibility). About all I cared was that she didn't smoke. Pretty shallow, I know. But I wasn't looking much deeper than skin deep, and it's because I was immature and driven by hormones.

I think Mo leadership tap into this dynamic by pretending to offer young males sexual fulfillment for conformity. As long as enough young women fall for the complementary equivalent, it "works" for the Morg.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: June 11, 2019 10:20PM

This is not an absolute, but as purberty sets in, a person forms a composite of what a desirable mate would be, and would have to offer. Here's where it becomes very complex and individual. Factors entering in will be parental modeling (for good or ill), celebrity crushes, boys and girls in proximity (church, school, etc.), and so on.

The next stage is first love, which will be intensified if (1) that first crush matches the emerging composite model, and (2) if it is reciprocal, The more physical contact (3) the more that concept of love imprints on a person's emotions and thoughts.

Ideally, a person does not get to bonded to this, because that idealized love/romance/love & sex object is not likely to be met in adulthood. But it can be powerful.

That's why I'm upset with the age drop of adolescent sexuality we've seen with the sexual revolution. Very few teens are really ready for this. It's also why sexual contact with adults, even if "consensual" is so wrong.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: June 11, 2019 11:54PM

in mormonism. Romantic love? Not hardly. There was one guy that I dated while dating my future husband who was an ex-druggie. Now that was a real relationship compared to any other mormons I knew, liked, dated. He was my roommate's brother. I probably should have married him. He hadn't asked me, but I'm sure if I had told him my husband had asked, he would have asked me. I was just so insecure that I didn't think any guy really liked me. Oh to be back when I was 25!!!

I had no trouble at all getting dates with nonmormons and I worked with a lot of them.

Romantic love. The guy I'm with now, who I dated back when I was 20, now that always stands out to me as romantic love. It becomes normal every day stuff after so many years, but he is the man I always wanted. There are days I'm just overwhelmed that this really happened in my life. We don't have a perfect relationship, but we can discuss pretty much anything. He gave me back my dignity. He treats me like he wants to take care of me, which is something I've always needed.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 12:07AM

Romantic love isn't a saving ordinance.

Remember, "...any two worthy members can have a good marriage..."?

And I also remember, "I know we were in love in the Pre-Existence and were worthy of being united here on Earth, and it happened!"

But, I have a Testimony that I'm in love with a wonderful woman and she loves me back. She is good stuff, in every single possible way!

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 12:49PM

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Posted by: Former "Cougarette" ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 08:39AM

Right, Elderolddog, the same tired old lines at BYU still apply:

"We were in love in the Pre-Existence."
"God revealed to me that we should be married."
"I felt promptings of the Spirit, that I should come over and meet you."
"I had a dream/vision that you and I would get married in the temple."

Didn't Wendy say something like that about Russ, quoted in a recent Deseret News article? You can bet money that she said that to him!

I lived the section of a girl's dorm at BYU, that had the reputation of having the hottest girls--cheerleaders, song-leaders, Cougarettes, beauty queens (the runner up for Miss America among them) the Homecoming Queen, the Belle of the Y, some student body officers, the Hale family actresses. They were also good people! (Living in the dorms was a lot of fun.) Those girls heard those lines from guys so often, that their eyes would roll! I dunno, maybe a few of the young men were sincere--but, sorry, we just heard it so often, that it had no meaning, anymore. We had professions of True Love and even proposals of marriage from Mormons on the second or third dates! That's the truth. Sometimes from the same guys. We girls compared our experiences, and talked about absolutely everything, trying to understand what was going on, and helping each other. Over half the girls--I think it was 75%--got married and dropped out of school, before they graduated. Those of us who graduated still single got teased, and accused of being "picky."

We girls knew that we wore the right clothes, had good manners, our hair and makeup looked good, etc., but that did not make us feel secure or loved. Many had very low self esteem. One beauty queen was gorgeous without makeup, but she used to cry and get upset if her makeup and hair wasn't perfect, and she was too ashamed to go to class. There was a small group of bulimic girls who would run around the field behind the dorm, and then throw-up, every night. Really sad!

The Mormon returned missionaries moved too fast, because the church instructed them to get married ASAP, and start having children right away, even before finishing their education. This is a perfect example of the bad advice that the cult gives its members. My friends and I couldn't fall in love that fast. We wanted to get to know someone, and to become friends first. Whenever I would say that to a Mormon date, he would laugh at me! Friends? Har-har! They admitted that they weren't looking for friendship. I had dated the love of my life for 10 years, since the 8th grade, before we talked about marriage. Now THAT was romantic love! He was why I wouldn't have been interested in anyone else, anyway.

My closest BYU friends were from home, and they got married at ages 24-31, to: a Jewish professor back home, a handsome non-Mormon fireman, and old Mormon boyfriends from home--a medical student at the U, a PhD physicist, an airline pilot. These men were older, and had delayed marriage, in order to finish their education or start their careers. My friends all graduated, also, and some went on to graduate school. All of these people were on a different page than the BYU Mormons, or in a different world, so to speak. They had a lot of romance, and still have great marriages, today.

I used to get upset whenever a BYU boy said he loved me, and I would say, "How many brothers and sisters do I have? What are my favorite hobbies? What is my middle name? You don't know anything about me. You can't possibly love me." I was right. The next weekend, the boy would be pursuing another girl, and would be engaged within a few months.

Sorry to say, I didn't think the Mormon BYU boys had much respect for women, as people.

I just got a wedding invitation from my Mormon RM nephew, back from his mission not even a year. They will have known each other only 6 weeks. My RM brother got engaged on his FIRST date. Recently a friend met and quickly married a Mormon widower with children, and his wife had been dead only 6 months.

Maybe Mormons are so eager for sex and procreation, that they just don't have time for romance and courtship. Neither did their parents, or their grandparents.

IMO, Polygamy is the most un-romantic thing, ever.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 10:32AM

A few questions, if you don't mind:

When did you attend the "Y?" If it's been a while, do you have connections that would tell you how it's changed, if at all?

I'm curious about how that concentration of prospective trophy wives got concentrated in one dorm. Does this type of girl seek it out, or do they somehow find each other? Do you think boys (RMs, especially) focused their matrimonial ambitions on this dorm? Do you think it's this way now, and can you actually name the dorm? (No, I'm not looking for a date--but I would really like to know.)

There's a bit of a disconnect I'd appreciate your thoughts on. You state that the girls in this dorm were savvy in recognizing boys' superficial come-ons ("I feel direction," "...the Pre-Existence..." etc.) and even made fun of them. Yet 75% of them were married and gone before getting their degrees? Clumsy or not, it seems plenty of boys got their trophy wives. Can you reconcile this?

I admire that you stayed through and got a serious education. You stayed with the right clique!

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 09:05AM

I contrast “true, romantic love” and “stable, loving relationship.”

True, romantic love begins with the meeting of the eyes. Once done, the lover(s) fall off a cliff.

The lovers can recover from their falling and proceed to a stable, loving relationship, but it is in no way guaranteed. Much is against it, actually.

On the flip side, a stable, loving relationship in no way requires true, romantic love. In fact, it may be easier to establish without it.

Human, soaked in Brontë magic

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Posted by: Elyse ( )
Date: June 12, 2019 11:55AM

I remember the days when the Mormon church used to try and sell itself through romantic love.

Eternal Love was marketed.

Of course, a hard look at any Mormon marriage where the parents were struggling with a ton of little kids and no money and no help would have sobered up romantics real fast.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: June 14, 2019 12:02AM

The speed with which LDS relationships, engagements, and marriages can occur seems to be an ever-popular topic here. So thanks (seriously), Jordan, for bringing it up again on your thread. I confess to having a somewhat morbid fascination with the subject--please don't ask me why.

So I'm bumping this thread (kind of parallel to Jordan's) that "Former Cougarette" (a one-time anonymous moniker, I assume) will revisit this and consider my follow up post and questions.

"Cougarette--you still out there?"

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Posted by: carameldreams ( )
Date: June 17, 2019 08:51PM

'Todd and Julie' is the model.

Anything else is way inferior to them.

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