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Posted by: acerbic ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 11:42AM

Treated son's meningitis with herbals and a priesthood blessing.

The child was too stiff to put in the car but they didn't think it was serious enough for medical attention.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/david-collet-ezekial-stephan-meningitis-alberta-trial-1.5187869

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 12:32PM

I understand that Lethbridge is a somewhat heavily LDS-populated area, but in the articles pertaining to this case that I've read, no direct reference was made to the couple being practicing members of the cCOJCOLDS. I did read that a priesthood blessing was involved, but that could have referred to the priesthood of an ofshoot group rather than the mainline church.

Are these people actually mainline LDS?

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Posted by: Ted ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 05:50PM

True, TCOJCOLDS was not mentioned in the article, but a "priesthood blessing" was. That is Mormon speak my friend.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 12:45PM


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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 02:27PM

Too bad they didn't use it.

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 02:34PM

What does Canada's medical system have to do with any of this? You do understand that they are being prosecuted for NOT using the medical system, right?...

Oh, wait, this is your attempt to turn the thread political so you can rehash your favorite topics. Got it.

...

Besides, aren't you Canadian? If you had to deal with the US medical system, you might not be quite so quick to judge Canada's system harshly.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 02:45PM

Finally Free! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Besides, aren't you Canadian? If you had to deal
> with the US medical system, you might not be quite
> so quick to judge Canada's system harshly.

So true. God what a mess of insurance and permissions and covered/no covered and GFundMees daily on Facebook, and, and...

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 02:56PM

Exactly!

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 06:51PM

Finally Free! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What does Canada's medical system have to do with
> any of this? You do understand that they are being
> prosecuted for NOT using the medical system,
> right?...

Yes. So why aren't they using it? This is one of the few instances government interference may have been helpful.

There was a similar case in Australia (non-LDS) where a child died from homeopathy.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 06:56PM

Yet another unwitting self-contradiction. Aren’t you the cutest!

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 07:03PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yet another unwitting self-contradiction.
> Aren’t you the cutest!

Not a self-contradiction at all. I support minimal government, rathee than no government at all. I am not a total anarchist. Nor am I a statist like you.

If a child is severely abused or neglected then that is an instance the state should intervene as that child's rights as a free citizen should be protected and it cannot do that for itself.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 07:22PM

Silly man! Here let me help you.

Jordan: "Behold Canada's superior medical system (n/t)"

Then people point out that blaming the Canadian medical system makes no sense because the family didn't use that system. So Jordan pivots:

Jordan: "Yes. So why aren't they using it?"

Excellent!


------------
Then there is this.

Jordan daily: government is socialist, a bad thing. Bad, bad government!

Jordan today: "This is one of the few instances government interference may have been helpful."


My heavens, you sound just like a "cultural Marxist." Not to mention a "statist," someone who thinks that when individuals do what he doesn't like the government should step in and insist that everyone toe Jordan's line.

Always good for a laugh, our Jordan!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2019 07:26PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Happy_Heretic ( )
Date: July 02, 2019 11:50AM

It is terribly sad when one must spell out irrationality so that it is clear.

Logic should really be taught as subject in its own right in American schools. Education seems to entrenched in teaching students "what" to know; rather than "how to find out." Of course, a population with critical thinking skills is very hard to rule over.

HH =)

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 07:43PM

Then what was your post
"Behold Canada's superior medical system (n/t)"
about?

Explain how Canada's health system is in any way responsible for this.

Is it your position that somehow the health system is supposed to know about a case of meningitis before the person shows up for medical care?

This is also not unique to Canada:

https://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/2018/07/faith-healing_parents_plead_to.html

https://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-city/2011/10/dale_and_shannon_hickman_of_th.html

https://www.kivitv.com/news/idaho-ranks-worst-in-nation-for-faith-healing-deaths

So the US health system doesn't do a very good job either.

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Posted by: looking in ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 07:35PM

They weren't using the mainstream medical system it because they are of the mindset that homeopathy, supplements, herbal remedies, avoiding vaccinations etc. are just as effective as or better for good health than conventional medicine.

The system is there for them to access, but they chose not to, to their little boy's detriment.

Government interference would have been helpful certainly, but this is not a child who ever previously came across the radar of social services. Up until he contracted meningitis, their child was a healthy little boy and nothing about their parenting attracted the attention of authorities until this horrible instance.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 03:03PM

Behold Jordan's superior logic.

Too bad he used it.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 07:39PM

I love watching a train wreck, don't you?

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 10:58PM

I do but his pushing of the big red politics button shows he has no restraint and it is annoying.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 11:19PM

My appreciation for train wrecks is facetious. The truth is I share your feelings in this as in most other things.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 04:01PM

"Actually, as one of our commenters pointed out in the comments of various posts, that’s not true at all. David Stephan belongs to a family that runs a nutritional supplements company, Truehope Nutritional Support, . He’s also a Mormon, but he belongs to the strain of Mormonism that believes in a more “natural” approach to healing based on religious texts. (It’s not a coincidence that, right here in the gold old USA, the center of the supplement industry is in Utah.) Basically, Stephan’s entire business and worldview are inextricably linked to what happened to his son’s death, with his belief in “natural healing” having lead to Ezekiel’s unnecessary death. As far as David Stephan’s business goes, Health Canada launched an unsuccessful court case in 2004 to stop the distribution of the company’s product Empowerplus, a product that the company claimed to be able to manage mental illnesses. The case ended in 2006 when the company was found not guilty of distributing the supplement without a drug identification number."
https://respectfulinsolence.com/2018/02/13/quackery-and-wellness-the-case-of-david-and-collet-stephan-and-their-son-ezekiel/

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 04:03PM

belief is great!!
Stupidity not so much!!

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Posted by: Visitors Welcome ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 05:01PM


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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 06:00PM

He has been testifying in his own defence (and is acting as his own lawyer after asking for several million dollars from Alberta to cover his legal bills which was denied him), that he was unaware of exactly how seriously ill his child was. Never, not once have I ever sensed any remorse in anything he has said in the myriad TV interviews he has given on the courthouse steps. He has questioned medical professionals who were testifying for the prosecution and it sounded like he was challenging their credentials and their professional ability. At least that is my take on this travesty he and his wife (who never says anything to the TV camera) have caused by their stupidity and blind adherence to a fatally flawed distrust of modern medicine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2019 06:02PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 11:41PM

It's amazing that he and his wife were ever even smart enough to procreate.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 25, 2019 11:43PM

Where there is faith, there is no need for intelligence.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 12:18AM

So true.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 08:10AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Where there is faith, there is no need for
> intelligence.

So let me get this straight. Little Ms Perfect who goes around pretending to be anti-National Socialist is now arguing for eugenics?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 03:17PM

Fool.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 03:28PM

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lot's Wife Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Where there is faith, there is no need for
> > intelligence.
>
> So let me get this straight. Little Ms Perfect who
> goes around pretending to be anti-National
> Socialist is now arguing for eugenics?

1. How on earth did LW's comment raise the spectre of eugenics?

2. Name-calling is not allowed on this board.

3. Your first comment against Canada's health care system is ridiculous, as others have ably pointed out.

I and my family have gone through what I would term a medical nightmare lately (no need to expound on details) and yet the health care here in Canada is exemplary, in theory at worst, but at times you have to be your own best advocate. Whatever we've gone through, with some misdiagnoses and care that is too slow in coming at times, at least we have paid $000.00 directly for whatever investigations, exams, treatment is required.

So there's that.

It must hurt to have such a sour disposition. If you *are* in Canada, perhaps you could seek care for whatever ails ya. It won't even hurt your pocketbook.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2019 03:29PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 03:35PM

Apparently people who are not intelligent shouldn't be allowed to procreate.

scmd1 wrote:
"It's amazing that he and his wife were ever even smart enough to procreate."

Mrs Lot concurs, stating:
"Where there is faith, there is no need for intelligence."

When you believe breeding should be ordered by the intelligence rates of the parents, that is what is known as eugenics. And I get called a bigot by her elsewhere! (Elsewhere she states there is no genetic component to intelligence.)

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 03:41PM

OK, now that you've explained your "logic" it makes no sense.

I'll quote Lot's Wife here as it's applicable, "whoosh!"

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 03:57PM

Finally Free! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK, now that you've explained your "logic" it
> makes no sense.
>
> I'll quote Lot's Wife here as it's applicable,
> "whoosh!"

It reminds me once how on Facebook someone (who was posing as left wing) saw a photograph of some skinheads and said, "The gene pool could use a little chlorine."

Now don't get me wrong, they were indeed an ugly crew, but to pose as progressive and then state you wish certain people to be expunged from the genetic record is a surefire way of out-Heroding Herod, and not even knowing it.

In the same way, we see supposedly progressive people coming out with statements like "they shouldn't be allowed to breed", or talking about the "Darwin Award".

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 04:01PM

Notice the bright shiny object.

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 04:06PM

Please read Nightingale's post below as it shows the problem with your "logic".

But, I'm guessing it doesn't matter as you are willfully misrepresenting what they stated in order to make it fit with your opinions and lead the conversation to one of your prefered topics.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 03:42PM

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Apparently people who are not intelligent
> shouldn't be allowed to procreate.
>
> scmd1 wrote:
> "It's amazing that he and his wife were ever even
> smart enough to procreate."
>
> Mrs Lot concurs, stating:
> "Where there is faith, there is no need for
> intelligence."

Those comments say nothing about the parties not being "allowed" to procreate. You are reading something in that is just not there. Both posters mention the apparent mental capacity of the people involved. That is nowhere close to stating they should not be allowed to have offspring.

As an aside, why do you insist on referring to Lot's Wife as "Mrs Lot"? Is it meant to be a put-down? As in emphasizing her gender? In a negative way?



> When you believe breeding should be ordered by the
> intelligence rates of the parents, that is what is
> known as eugenics. And I get called a bigot by her
> elsewhere! (Elsewhere she states there is no
> genetic component to intelligence.)

Again, you're restating something they did not say. You are misreading, at best. Or intentionally misrepresenting.

Also, I don't even understand the reference to being called a bigot. Or the reference to genetic component. Maybe I missed something somewhere. Eminently possible.

But really - your reading comprehension here is not sterling.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: July 02, 2019 04:35AM

I apologize to other posters for the sin of having resurrected a thoroughly post-mortem thread, but I didn't read this earlier.

How was stating my surprise that the couple in question was ever smart enough to reproduce in any way akin to declaring that they and others like them should not be allowed to procreate (or, for that matter, how did Lot's Wife's ensuing comment in any way suggest the same)? Seriously? Is your ability to infer a logical conclusion from a reading passage so blatantly lacking that you honestly believe what you have written?

Thanks, Nightingale and Finally Free, for already having addressed the issue.

> Jordan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Apparently people who are not intelligent
> > shouldn't be allowed to procreate.
> >
> > scmd1 wrote:
> > "It's amazing that he and his wife were ever
> even
> > smart enough to procreate."
> >
> > Mrs Lot concurs, stating:
> > "Where there is faith, there is no need for
> > intelligence."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2019 04:37AM by scmd1.

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 03:36PM

So, having had your prior "logic" shown to be problematic at best, you first try denying it, then when it's blatantly pointed out to you, you ignore it.

Now, you're somehow trying to claim someone, who didn't mention anything regarding procreation at all, is somehow arguing for eugenics? How exactly? As much as I'll probably regret it, I kind of want to know how you make that leap.

Do bother you read anything in the threads you are replying to? Or do you just skim just enough to try and come up with a barely associated statement (that you think is clever) that you can use to derail a thread to a topic that you want to discuss? I think think it's painfully obvious what the answer it's heavily on display in this thread.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 03:53PM

"why do you insist on referring to Lot's Wife as "Mrs Lot"?"

Quicker to type. To get an apostrophe on this keyboard I have to go into a different menu.

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 04:07PM

Showing once again, that you are replying to a comment that you aren't reading.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 05:01PM

Finally Free! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Showing once again, that you are replying to a
> comment that you aren't reading.

This is a very old school forum and coupled with a phone browser, it isn't very user friendly. I can't actually see your message as I type type this... C'est la vie...

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 05:42PM

Jordan Wrote:
----------------------------------------------------
> ... C'est la vie...

This proves you *are* Canadian!

Or not.

[French joke]


But see how you can't leap to conclusions on limited information? Things could go either way.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 07:47AM

Not much has changed in the past ten years. Australia is also the victim of a superior medical set up.

In the Aussie case, there wasn't an LDS angle but there was a quack Indian medicine angle.

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2009-09-28/parents-jailed-over-babys-death/1445256?pfmredir=sm

A couple who relied on homeopathic treatments for their eczema-stricken baby daughter have been jailed over her death.

Thomas Sam, 42, and his wife Manju, 37, were found guilty of the most serious case of manslaughter by criminal negligence.

The judge said their nine-month-old daughter Gloria had suffered helplessly and unnecessarily from a treatable condition and sentenced the pair to a total of 10 years behind bars.

Thomas Sam got the longer sentence of at least six years because, as a homeopath, he had a double duty of care.

Minutes after he was handcuffed, his wife Manju was taken into custody for the first time.

She was jailed for four years.

Their daughter Gloria was so sick with eczema that she constantly cried in pain, her skin broken and oozing fluid, the court heard.

Both parents were well educated and the judge found they should have known better.

They repeatedly rejected conventional medical treatment and instead opted for homeopathic remedies.

Then, against doctors' orders, they took the baby girl to India where her condition deteriorated.

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Posted by: Ted ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 05:57PM

Such a sad story. This is the danger of a fanatical religion. People believe in fantasy powers at the peril of their loved ones. I strongly speculate that this couple loved their son, and I don't think they should be punished by the Canadian legal system...losing their son is punishment enough. They are a good looking couple, and most probably the judge will let them off if they are extremely remorseful, which I am sure they are. This really reminds me of the Game of Thrones, where "The Lord of Light" didn't come through for the believers - to their peril.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 07:23PM

I would hope they would demonstrate remorse, at least, yet the father is accusing the specialist in the case of being unqualified to read a CT scan (which confirmed her diagnosis of meningitis). Puh-leeze. That doesn't sound like a person who has accepted that they made a grievous error and their son paid for it with his life.


Excerpts from a newspaper article regarding the death of Ezekiel Stephan:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/david-collet-ezekial-stephan-meningitis-alberta-trial-1.5187869


“A father accused in his son's death testified Monday that the sick boy's condition worsened after he had appeared to be doing better, but not to the point where his parents were worried.”

RED FLAG: “…the sick boy’s condition worsened”


“David and Collet Stephan are charged with failing to provide the necessaries of life for their son, Ezekiel, who had meningitis, when the family lived in southern Alberta in March 2012.”

“A medical examiner has previously testified that Ezekiel died of bacterial meningitis and a lung infection in 2012.”

“It is the second trial for the Stephans, who now live in Grande Prairie, Alta. A jury found them guilty in 2016, but the Supreme Court overturned the convictions last year and ordered a new trial. This one is before a judge alone.”

“The Stephans initially treated their son for days with herbal remedies, alternative therapies and a priesthood blessing and only sought medical attention when he stopped breathing.”

RED FLAGS: 1. The child was sick enough to eventually stop breathing. 2. The boy stopped breathing.


“Stephan testified that he and his wife thought Ezekiel had croup and appeared to be recovering at their home near Glenwood, Alta.”

RED FLAG: Parents made their own diagnosis. A sick child should generally be diagnosed by a competent physician, especially if the illness lasts more than 2-3 days.


“Two weeks before he was rushed to hospital, the toddler's condition had worsened to the point that they discussed whether they should take him to a hospital, Stephan said. But they didn't think it was serious enough.”

RED FLAG: “…the toddler’s condition worsened”. It got to the point that even parents who avoid mainstream medical intervention discussed seeking medical advice.


“Stephan said his wife did call a friend of hers who was a nurse and a midwife. The friend mentioned the possibility Ezekiel might have meningitis but she wasn't sure. And with a lack of symptoms, Ezekiel probably "would be turned away" if he sought medical attention.”

RED FLAGS: 1. A midwife has no special expertise to diagnose an ill child, especially over the phone. 2. The midwife did, though, actually mention the possibility of meningitis. How tragic that that did not raise the anxiety level of herself or the parents.


"He went down for his nap and he woke up in crisis. His breathing started to get worse," said Stephan. "I was shocked and confused. He became very tired right before he stopped breathing."

“Stephan called 911, but when Ezekiel started breathing again, the father declined an ambulance.”

This is beyond tragic – for the child. I would also wonder why the paramedics didn’t show up anyway. They usually do, to check things out even if the caller says that things eventually appear to be all right.

RED FLAG: The child stopped breathing. Even though he appeared to recover somewhat, the majority of parents/people would seek expert advice for such a life-threatening turn of events. I think this is a crucial point in determining fault – what would the average non-medical parent or guardian do in a similar situation. If a parent fails to meet this standard they face questions, possible trial, and potentially a guilty verdict.


“Under cross-examination by Crown attorney Britta Kristensen, Stephan said he had learned from his wife that her friend suggested Ezekiel might have meningitis.”

"You were made aware that bacterial meningitis was quite serious?" she asked.”

"Yes I was made aware that with bacterial meningitis you generally have 24 hours before it became a crisis," Stephan replied.”

"Do you recall being told that it was a potentially deadly condition?" Kristensen continued.”

"That would have been communicated to me," Stephan said.”
(I am not aware of whether this means he knew or he didn’t know).

“Stephan also told court that Ezekiel and his older brother didn't have routine visits with a pediatrician or family doctor, and they didn't get standard vaccinations.”

RED FLAG: The children, at the least, were susceptible to infections due to lack of vaccinations. (Whether you agree with vaccination or not, this is a true statement).


“Kristensen asked Stephan if he was aware that the vaccinations would have protected against meningitis.”

"No," said Stephan. "I wasn't really aware of what meningitis was."

(All the more reason to look it up or, better, consult a qualified medical practitioner in the face of a child’s illness lasting more than a few days and/or appearing serious).

“Defence lawyer Jason Demers said in a brief opening statement that the Stephans didn't do anything wrong.”

"Sometimes bad things happen to good people. Parenting is not like looking into a crystal ball," Demers said.”

"Taking Ezekiel to hospital any sooner than the Stephans did may not have made a difference."

(But it may have. Thinking that a hospital check-up may not make a difference in a life or death situation is not a valid reason for not consulting a physician).


“In March 2012, the Stephans took Ezekiel to Lethbridge so they could buy remedies but prosecutor Britta Kristensen, the toddler's body was so stiff at that point that the couple was unable to get him into his car seat and instead had him lie on a mattress in the back of their car.”

RED FLAG x 100: The toddler’s body was stiff (a well known effect of untreated meningitis). Who could reasonably accept that they were still dealing with croup, or any condition that could be handled by parents without medical assistance?


“Court heard the couple made two 911 calls on March 13, 2012.”

“The first was when Ezekiel had stopped breathing, but he seemed to recover, so David Stephan turned down an offer for an ambulance.”

“The prosecution told the judge that by the time paramedics got involved, Ezekiel had no pulse and no neurological activity.”
The poor little boy.

So many red flags, ignored. So much ignorance.


A second article, dealing with the perspective of a paediatric specialist who eventually became involved:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/pediatric-specialist-calls-ct-scan-of-toddler-s-brain-one-of-the-most-devastating-she-s-seen-1.5175034


“A pediatric critical care specialist says the results of a CT scan on the brain of a boy whose parents are on trial in his death was one of the "most devastating" she had ever seen.”

“Dr. Shauna Burkholder was testifying Thursday at the trial of David and Collet Stephan on one count each of failing to provide the necessaries of life for their son, 19-month-old Ezekiel Stephan.”

“They treated the toddler with alternative and natural medicines instead of seeking medical assistance right away.”

“A medical examiner has previously testified that Ezekiel died of bacterial meningitis and a lung infection in 2012.”

“Burkholder was asked by the Crown about her diagnosis of the boy.”

“She testified that the CT scan and blood tests in combination with her physical exam and speaking with the Stephans led her to believe that Ezekiel likely had bacterial meningitis.”

“At this point in the voir dire, David Stephan, who is representing himself, challenged Burkholder's qualifications and ability to accurately read a CT scan.”

RED FLAG: The father is unlearned in this regard and yet he impugns the credentials of the specialist.


Whatever the outcome of the second trial, hopefully these parents, and many others, will learn when seeking medical help is the most prudent course of action to help a sick child. And that failing to do so is negligence, if not homicide, unwitting or otherwise.

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Posted by: Ted ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 09:03PM

No question about it...many red flags that normal parents would have acted upon. You've convinced me, maybe they go to prison for their complete lack of negligence. Perhaps only they know how much of an impact their belief in the magical priesthood power, even the authority and power of the holy melchezadic priesthood, had in witholding normal parental care. I am thinking they delayed care because of their beliefs in magic.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: July 02, 2019 02:31PM

Ted Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am thinking they delayed
> care because of their beliefs in magic.

Yes, but I'm not convinced of it being priesthood magic. They may have miraculous expectations but they stoke these with mega doses of vitamins.

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: July 03, 2019 10:17AM

A Facebook page has popped up supporting the Stephan's and the majority of posters are calling for "justice" for the couple and calling the court case a set up and coverup by Alberta Heathcare, the Alberta Government and the medical community. One of the administrators at "the other exmo site" is among their supporters. I hope they are convicted and sentenced to prison for a long stretch.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2019 11:24AM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

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