It's for my chart, so help me out here. What are some facts about church doctrine, history, leaders, beliefs, etc that you were totally shocked to learn even after years in the church?

--Smith's attempt to sell the BoM copywright in Canada and when it failed he said "well some revelations come from God, some from man, some from the devil, some from indigestion," or smthg

--Although I heard Joe was polygamous, I was shocked at the teen brides and sending away dudes on missions so he could marry their wives

--The patent lie in the JS History about the religious revivals near his home in 1820 (they would have been in about 1825), and the absence of him claiming to anyone that he saw God and Jesus until that history was written in 1838

--The full context of the conflicts with Missourians (you hear about far west and haun's mill in the church, but not about Gallatin and Crooked River where the Mo's looked pretty bad).

--The head in the hat thing was actually published by an apostle in the July 1993 Ensign. Wow.

Yeah, Russel Nelson, and NO one apparently read it!!! I sure did not!

That there are men living on the moon who are 9 feet tall and dress like quakers. There are also celestializes beings living on the sun, were it not for them and thier glory there would be no light coming from the sun for they are its true light source. BY was pretty confident that science would prove the sun theory correct in due time because religion and science are in perfect harmony.

God and he has a God and so on and so on.

Of course. Otherwise, how could god have mated with Mary to make Jesus?

I'm sorry, what TSCC? I'm new here and don't know all the acronyms. what is TBM?
thanks.
I was surprised when my dad told me that God lives on a planet called kolob!

This (or The) So Called Church

True Blue (or Believing) Mormon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2011 05:46PM by luckychucky.

TBM = True Believing Mormon or True Blue Mormon

That the D&C 122 is not really a revelation from God to Joseph, but a part of a letter from Joseph the the church.

The Doctrine and Covenants section 122 is supposed to be a revelation given to Joseph Smith-
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/122

can you see where DC 122 begins?
http://www.utlm.org/images/changingtherevelations/changingtherevelations_p177.gif

Sections 121-122-123 come from a letter written by Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, Lyman Wight, Caleb Baldwin, and Alexander McCrae while imprisoned in Liberty jail. Published originally in The Times and Seasons in Nauvoo 1840 (link provided for full text):
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v1n07.htm

Page 99-103 plus names of authors at pg.104
COPY OF A LETTER, WRITTEN BY J. SMITH JR. AND OTHERS, WHILE IN PRISON.
Liberty Jail, Clay Co. Mo.
To Bishop Partridge, and to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, in Quincy Illinois, and to those scattered abroad, throughout all the regions round about.

Resumes on page 131:
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v1n09.htm


Page 132 - can you find the transition from letter to the saints (sect 121) and the revelation from God in Sect 122?

(1The ends of the earth shall inquire after thy aname, and fools...)

No power or influence can, or aught [ought] to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long suffering, by gentleness, by meekness and by love unfeigned; without hypocracy [hypocrisy] and without guile: reproving with sharpness when moved upon by the holy Ghost, and afterwards showing forth an increase of love towards him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy, so that he may know, that thy faithfulnees [faithfulness] is stronger than the cords of death. Let the soul be full of charity towards all men, and virtue guard thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God, and the doctrines of the priesthood shall destil [distill?]upon thy soul, as the dews from heaven; they sceptre [scepter] shall be an unchanging sceptre [scepter] of righteousness, the Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, the ends of the earth shall enquire [inquire] thy name; fools shall have thee in derision, hell shall rage against thee, while the pure in heart, the wise, the noble, and the virtuous shall seek council, authority, and blessing, constantly from under thy hand: thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors, although their influence shall cast the [thee ?] into trouble, and into prisons, thou shall be had in honor, and but for a small moment, and thy voice shall be more terrible in the midst of thy enemies, than the fierce lion, because of thy righteousness: and thy God shall stand by thee forever and ever. If thou art called to pass through tribulation, if thou art in prison among false brethren, if thou art in perils among robbers, if thou art accused of all manner of false acusations, [accusations], if thine enemies fall opon [upon] thee, if they tare [tear] thee from the society of thy parents...

Section 123 begins at the bottom of 132

It is obvious, when reading the entirety of this portion of the letter-(pages 131 and 132) that these words are all written to the church from Joseph Smith and not a seperate revelation to Joseph from God.


The 1844 DC did not include any portion of the letter. Since Joseph Smith oversaw the publication of the 1844 Doctrine and Covenants, it is apparent that he did not consider the material in the letter as revelation.

In 1876 the new edition of the Doctrine and Covenants included it, but entire paragraphs were cut, added to, and rewritten with entirely new concepts and material including Plurality of Gods.

Nobody knows for sure who wrote the extra wording; was it originally written by Joseph? If so, why did he leave it out of the Times and Seasons, and the 1844 Doctrine and Covenants?

If someone in Salt Lake wrote them, is it okay to change the prophet's words and present the new text as scripture from God?

That JS joined the Methodist church well AFTER the supposed 1820 first vision, when instructed by Jesus himself to join NO church. I was like, WTH???

And I loved where I found in reading Lucy Mack's history of the church while studying out, that her DH Joseph had had the very same dream (in 1810) that Lehi later supposedly had centuries before, almost word for word the exact same dream. GEE, I wonder where Joseph got the idea for that dream? I was SHOCKED!

One more- that NONE of the early saints had any knowledge of or ever heard a word about the supposed "first vision". And I always was taught it was the founding story of the church. It is no wonder many missionaries do not teach it- In many missions they told to just start with Moroni in the bedroom. How convenient that they do not then have to answer questions about at least 4 versions of the first vision that never happened.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2011 06:19PM by think4u.

I explained that to some co-workers back in Yuma and I started carcking up 1/2way through the explanation because it all sounded so crazy. That cult is so nucking futs.

Some of mine were...

-- discovering that after the manifesto on polygamy, the church sanctioned 50,000+ polygamous marriages mostly done in Mexico but were done by apostles or involved apostles. Guess the revelation wasn't meant to be lived eh? That explained the second manifesto later on.

-- the use of magical rituals by the Smiths during the time they were digging for treasure.

-- the extent of Brigham Young's tyranny during his reign over Utah, including the full story of the MMM. Loved the entire '19th wife' story of the woman who divorced him.

-- the fact that Oliver Cowdrey was related to Joseph and wasn't just some school teacher who just was recruited to help. 2nd cousin of the same age is a pretty important fact to leave out.

and my favorite - the fact that Joseph fled during the night on horseback out of Kirkland after the courts wanted to try him for his illegal banking scheme. Fleeing fines of over 100,000 after using boxes filled with rocks and bricks to fool investors that silver and gold was backing the bank...yeah, that's integrity for ya!

Plus the ones mentioned above I would agree with entirely.

I was a convert and was always told "milk before meat" when asking questions, and I quess I was a member for about 3 years when I realized they taught the planet kolob was the home of God or a star close to Gods home ( I forget) and that we were going to be Gods too !! WTF! THAT was my beginning I think. Just couldnt wrap my head around it. started research and devouring every book I could find.
I came from a Christian background and I went back.

A few more:

The gift of Aaron was actually a divining rod.

The changes in the revelations (BOC to D&C).

Sidney Rigdon's huge influence on the early church.

JS's tarring and feathering was because he couldn't keep it in his pants.

Lots more.

Another one that just slays me: In 1836 the church was being accused of living polygamy, not only by the outside world but by the main body of the church, because only a few of the chosen 12 were actually living it and it was a huge secret.

That year, 1836, a denial that the church was or had ever lived polygamy was published as a part of the Book of Commandments, (later D and C) and it was NOT taken out for 40 years, until 1876.

Also, during this time John Taylor was in England trying to get converts and being asked about polygamy, rumors flying. He denied flat out that anyone in the church was or ever had more than one wife, while at that very time he had 11 wives of his own back at home. Yuck!

That JS translated the BOM by sticking his in a hat that had stones in the bottom of it.

Essentially, he was scrying, not translating. A very large difference from what we were told.

How many times in Primary did we see the pictures of him translating the BOM directly from the Golden Plates?

So was he scrying or lying?

He had no need of the plates to actually do the work he did, whatever it was, and it was said that the plates were often NOT even in the room or house, sometimes hidden out in the forest, while they worked. That was some fine story tellin' on the spot there!

It appears it is very easy to hide nonexistent plates, and to translate from them or whatever!

One more: Dallin Oakes making up some dumbass excuse about the salamder letter Hoffman forged, obviously feeling something needed to be said because their are records where Joseph said when he went to get the plates a toad of sorts jumped out at him ( interpretation: salamander) then turned into a man! ( Moroni) haha



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2011 06:15PM by think4u.

Joseph "marrying" 14-year-olds.

The inclusion of the polygamy vows in the temple marriage ceremony (I had no idea and I know that most Mormons don't either) - the New and Everlasting Covenant, or whatever they call it.

The Book of Abraham being a total fraud.

B.Y.'s tyrannical behavior.

The Bishops' intimate and intrusive talks with 12-year-old boys.

The stunning number of changes in the B.O.M, which is supposedly the most perfect book ever written.

That there are several versions of the First Vision and that J.S. didn't write down the first version for years after it supposedly happened. Then the versions continued to change as he molded his message and vision for the church.

The politically expedient "revelations" - this one makes me so angry!

The staggering cost of the S.L.C. mall and how wrong all that is.

More when I come up with them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2011 06:01PM by introvertedme.

Book of Abraham for sure--I don't know where I've been since that came out but it was new to me when I read it.

Translating the BOM when it wasn't even opened? How can you translate something you aren't even looking at? I could strangely accept the hat/rock trick but still had the mental picture of the plates actually being there during all that. When I found out he wasn't even using the plates, I was pissed off.

and left in the early 80s before the Net. So the blood oathes and naked touching were a horrible SHOCK to me. Also, the DNA of the "ancient people" of America. LOL

All the campfire stories about the Three Nephites are pretty funny.

The 3 stooges - er, I mean Nephites - is my favorite, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Nephites

I'd LOVE to see the national media ask both Huntsman and Romney if they personally believe in the three Nephites story, preferably during a nationally-televised debate. This is not to intrude into their personal religious beliefs, but it would be a clear indication of their mental status and thought processes: If they believe this part of LDS Corp. nonsense, then their intelligence, reasoning, and sanity are in serious question.

"5 - Have they not read the scriptures, which say ye must take upon you the name of Christ, which is my name? For by this name shall ye be called at the last day;
6 - And whoso taketh upon him my name, and endureth to the end, the same shall be saved at the last day.
7 - Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.
8 - And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses' name then it be Moses' church; or if it be called in the name of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel."
3 Nephi 27:5-8


The LDS church was originally called the 'Church of Christ' and not the 'Church of Jesus Christ'. The word "Christ" is not a name but a title. ON MAY 3, 1834, THE NAME OF THE CHURCH WAS CHANGED TO "CHURCH OF LATTER DAY SAINTS," WITH NO MENTION OF JESUS CHRIST IN THE TITLE. If the name Jesus Christ must be incorporated into the name of an organization in order for it to be legitimate, then for a few years under the leadership of Joseph Smith the Mormon church was not the true church and was not legitimate, because the church did not carry the name of Jesus Christ, and the foundational prophet ignored the words of the Book of Mormon that he had written only a few years before, 3 Nephi 27:5-8. Who then restored the Mormon church from its apostasy led by its false prophet?"

Just wondering when that "restoration" took place. I don't see it in the "History of the Church."

laying their hands on Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery; and yet to later find out that there is no record of this event ever happening in any recording LDS scripture, especially the D & C, is quite eye opening. I mean, isn't the restoration of the priesthood supposed to be a pivotal part to Christ's true church? Hmmm...

When Joseph Smith called Orson Hyde to go to Israel to dedicate that land to the returning of the Jews. Then after Old Orson left town, Joseph Smith Married his wife.

I always wondered how much donated labor,, equptment,,fuel,,tools are used to build and maintain mormon proptery. At no cost to them. I know my family was always welding and fixing their farm machinery and hardly ever got paid.

at one time if you owned your own home and had a third story you could have an altar in your home and conduct your own prayer circles. i am pretty sure there is a room such as this in the beehive house and that is why they will not let you wander up to the third floor. if you ask about the third floor they will tell you its not finished or some other story.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2011 08:15PM by zimmy.

TSCC actually had real estate that had brothels from 1885 until 1942 or so.

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon363.htm

Thank you D. Michael Quinn.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2011 08:27PM by imalive.