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Posted by: montanadude ( )
Date: August 10, 2019 11:11AM

https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-faith/2019-08-07/byu-museum-of-art-rend-the-heavens-155655

From the photo in the article, it looks like LD$ Inc is going with the father and son version of Joe's first vision. As with Mormon history, I'm sure the exhibit will support their version of cult's creation.

Funny how Richard Turley can tell Swedish Mormons (during the Swedish Rescue) that past Mormon art had not caught up with the current historical narrative.

Mormons love to have their cake and eat it too.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: August 10, 2019 11:14AM

Which first vision are they celebrating ?

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: August 10, 2019 11:20AM

It must've been difficult to choose between 7 different versions; this painting is a new one; looks like white tropical flowers were added.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: August 10, 2019 12:28PM

Whoa! How many entheogenic plants are in that painting. Visions galore if you eat the right one.
Or smoke it.

Seriously, though, this exhibition once again shows the momon "See, there's other stuff out there like this, so we must be true!" conceit. Just because you include other religious paintings in an art exhibit doesn't prove your religious art depicts true events.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: August 10, 2019 11:24AM


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Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: August 11, 2019 12:25PM

Those heavenly beings might be too old for Joe.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: August 10, 2019 12:57PM

I need to re-read ChurchCo's explanation of why there was more than one account of the FV, I'm slipping when I try to recall them and/or explain them to others.

To lil ol me, it's related to the rest of Joey's life (& death), constantly refining what he taught to 'the saints'; is his obfuscation regarding slavery the best example?


I'm sorry I can't go further into this, my 'few months short of 15 years old' wife/gf is calling for me, I just sharpened my flaming sword!

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Posted by: want2bx ( )
Date: August 10, 2019 02:18PM

What is a vision anyway? It's something that I've thought a lot about lately, but never once thought about when I was an active Mormon.

Is a vision a dream? Is it the ability to imagine? What exactly? I think it's interesting that the church doesn't go as far as to call it a visitation. The church wants their members to put a lot of trust in a vision that they've never really defined.

Lately, I think that the church's claim that a vision occurred is a lot less important than a concrete answer as to what the church is claiming the vision is.

To me, a vision is a dream. I have lots of crazy dreams. I even have a similar dream several times a month. But I always have a hazy recollection of it the next day.

Who knows? Maybe Joseph had a dream...or nine. Whatever. I still don't want to live my whole life based on the dreams of someone else who lived nearly 200 years ago.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: August 10, 2019 02:19PM

A "vision" is one's imagination.

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Posted by: LJ12 ( )
Date: August 10, 2019 06:18PM

I’ve wondered about this. Was JS deluded and a bit crazy (having dreams and believing them due to his own narcissism), or was he a deliberate fraudster, conscious of his deception? I think maybe somewhere between the two, later exaggerated by those who followed him. He was highly imaginative but also greedy. Perhaps he believed his own lies. I often think that of the cult’s current leaders. They’re so wrapped up in self importance that they love the lies so much they actually believe them or don’t even care about deception; the less evil ones probably try to convince themselves it’s all still true.
The first vision is fundamental to the “religion”. It’s easy to disprove the whole thing based just on this. If I remember correctly, it’s what finally convinced me without a doubt that the church is not true.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: August 12, 2019 10:56AM

He could have been schizophrenic.

This isn’t really a joke. In some cultures the “mentally ill” are steered into shamanism because of their proximity to other worlds. Joe’s son ended up in an asylum. Wasn’t Joe Senior a little “off”?

To me this would be a redeeming quality of Mormonism. I would trust a shaman to come up with something worthwhile. Not so much a con man.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2019 11:37AM by babyloncansuckit.

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Posted by: heartbroken ( )
Date: August 10, 2019 06:21PM

Wow. I never really thought about that before... A vision is just a dream. Thanks to the posters who pointed this out.

I joined the Mormon church when I was 12 years old, back in the 70s. My family was shown the First Vision film - not the filmstrip but the actual film with a two-reel film projector. We were a "golden" family and had special treatment.

The film was very well made and the young actor who played Joseph Smith was really cute. The missionaries pointed out that Joseph was my age (12) when he had his vision. I really liked how he had his vision in the woods as I also loved walking through the woods.

Although Joseph's supposed experience was only a vision, the film made it appear not as a dream but like it actually happened. Funny that I, and probably most people like me, didn't think of his vision as a vision because it was not presented as such in the film. In most films when a character has a dream it is obvious that it is a dream and not reality. The First Vision film from the early 70s made it appear as if Joseph did not have a vision but really saw God and Jesus. It wasn't just a dream.

From now on, if a TBM brings up Joseph's vision, I'm going to ask them to look up the word in the dictionary. I'll tell them to replace "vision" with "dream" and see if it has the same impact.

Too bad RfM wasn't around back in the 70s.

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Posted by: NLI this weekend ( )
Date: August 11, 2019 11:58AM

"The missionaries pointed out that Joseph was my age (12) when he had his vision."

Even by the church's own standards, the missionaries lied. According to the official history, JS was 14, not 12, when the so-called FV occurred.


The church has historically treated the "vision" as a visitation, an actual "they really came down from Kolob in the flesh to see him, it was THAT important!"


"I'll tell them to replace 'vision' with 'dream' and see if it has the same impact."

Or, replace "vision" with "hallucination." I bet I can predict their reaction to that one.

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Posted by: exminion ( )
Date: August 11, 2019 02:53PM

Those non-Mormon paintings have nothing to do with the JS's visions.

I guess they have to celebrate something...and I wonder what updated spin they will put on this myth.

Keep the media attention on the Mormons, with yet another event to advertise.

They should celebrate all of JS's wedding anniversaries.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 11, 2019 03:32PM

Juan Diego only saw the Virgin Mary and he immediately told everyone about it, and a church was built at the site of the vision, at her request, once she came through with some proof (her image on his cloak).

Juan Diego was just a 'local Indian makes good' kind of guy while I was in Mexico on my mission. Come to find out 'local Indian' hits the jackpot! He was beatified in 1990 and then canonized in 2002. He is now a Catholic Saint and all I do is suck at golf.

An American citizen sees Elohim and Jehovah and is shot to death in a frontier jail...

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: August 11, 2019 03:35PM

I think … (rare, ha ha) …


they should present all/each version, let the audience Vote on which one is 'best';

kinda like AGT!!

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 11, 2019 03:37PM

if there was a way for them to charge for each vote, they'd be all over that!

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: August 11, 2019 11:24PM

I'm still upset that the church blames its members for believing the sanitized white-washed first vision version that the youth was fully indoctrinated during the 1970s-1990s. That's what correlation through standardized church lessons taught. Then when these gullible youth went to a Know your religion or church history class, then the CES instructor drops a bombshell that the church has always taught its "true history" and members should have been paying closer attention. So members are gaslighted for being ignorant (when many were deceived) and not having a strong enough to stand up to some pesky truths.

And I think most of us wouldn't bothered serving a church mission to teach the world about a con man that changed his vision 9 or 10 times.

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Posted by: FelixNLI ( )
Date: August 12, 2019 01:24AM

Of course they won't tamper with the sacred grove story. They have been teaching the 1838 version of events in the missionary discussions for a long, long time. The earlier accounts were never meant to come to light. Kind of makes me think of the old country song "That's My Story and I'm Sticking To It".

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: August 12, 2019 11:21AM

How old does Jesus have to be before he gets grey hair like his dad?

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: August 12, 2019 03:12PM

The question you should have asked is if Joseph Smith had played with his little factory before his vision. That being true would throw their youth interrogations into question.

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