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Posted by: Yaki-da ( )
Date: September 06, 2019 04:38PM

The insights into life that keep on growing inside me are cold. It is just cold facts for me. Seriously. I know what I need to know and I can not do anything about it. It is a bit shameful but I got other things to do in my life.

I feel it is a waste of time helping regulate the self-esteem of my siblings.

They have all they need, realistic life-experience and more than basic knowledge, all of them have spouses, one of them got kids, all of them got jobs and money and waste it on toys, they own real estate, they can also choose a a life style with leisure.

But at this moment in life I know that every positive feeling we have had together in life just recede and vanish. Every BBQ for about 30 years of summer nights , every joy, positive memory. Yes everything. It has not make a dent in their lives.

It does not matter how much joy we share at any moment, in about two weeks it ends up in a groundhog day-situation. People must assure them of their worth and they try everything to get feedback out of people. It creeps on slowly. Stonewalling, gaslightning, finger-pointing, projections out of the blue. They have an agenda because they feel that their feelings are somebody elses problem.

It never stops..

About 10 years ago I did not know anything about the thing called object constancy. So I was always there to help them out. But with age. It does not make any dents on their locked personality.

But now I know can not do anything to change anything in their lives. It is pathological. So they must do it themselves.

Should I feel ashamed?

Quote:

"Object Constancy is a psychodynamic concept, and we could think of it as the emotional equivalence of Object Permanence. To develop this skill, we mature into the understanding that our caregiver is simultaneously a loving presence and a separate individual who could walk away. Rather than needing to be with them all the time, we have an ‘internalized image’ of our parents’ love and care. So even when they are temporarily out of sight, we still know we are loved and supported." -

https://psychcentral.com/lib/object-constancy-understanding-the-fear-of-abandonment-and-borderline-personality-disorder/

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: September 06, 2019 06:27PM

Should you feel ashamed? No. Simply, no.

Perhaps you can find a way to enjoy the occasional joyous get-togethers, and then distance yourself for a while and go live your life. If I were you, I would always be "busy."

My Polish/Russian side of the family has a saying, "Not my circus, not my monkeys." Don't make your family's problems your problems.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 06, 2019 07:58PM

"If I can't see you, you don't exist. If I can see you, and you're not useful, you might as well not exist."

--Genghis H. Khan, the progenitor of 5% of the world's current population, who obviously was not one to waste time.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: September 06, 2019 08:16PM

The church stunts your emotional growth, which leads to these kinds of problems when you have to live in the real world. Mormon obedience leaves lots of gaps in your toolset.

So what to do about toxic people? Avoid them. Forget about “lost sheep theory” because they don’t want to detox. You can’t make anyone happy. Only you can make you happy.

If you can’t avoid them and end up disappointing them, be happy that you’re unraveling their unrealistic expectations. It’s progress.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: September 08, 2019 02:02AM

***TRUE TRUE TRUE TRUE***
The church stunts your emotional growth, which leads to these kinds of problems when you have to live in the real world. Mormon obedience leaves lots of gaps in your toolset.

LDSInc does not want people to develop into well rounded adults. They are a lot harder to CONTROL. I think one of the worst teachings is that contention is of the debil. This is one people have problems here, they never learned to disagree in adult ways. Then you have to throw in several cups of Magical Thinking, and a good pound of Prosperity Doctrine coupled with basic LDSInc arrogance and you end up with some mighty screwed up adults. And for many, they never had good adult role models the pattern themselves from either. The way they insulate (be in but not of the world, keep with other members) gives them VERY narrow views of the way the world works and reality in general. Many in my family just don't have the capacity for logical thinking, the gears just don't mesh. Those BYU degrees just skipped right over that kind of thing I guess.

In my family of origin I saw early on how "good mormons" took advantage in all ways of "sinners". Took of their time, emotions and money. When you heard from them it was because they WANTED something. Oh I love you = give/do for me. Money is bad enough but the Emotional Vampires are the worst to me.

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Posted by: mootman ( )
Date: September 06, 2019 08:25PM

Thanks for expressing this, I have wanted to post a similar idea but I just couldn't summon the words. This helps
I'd still like to express something about this.... all I can say is that there is some thing about mormonism and mental illness.... they can't be disentangled... denial- and shame-centered existence

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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: September 06, 2019 08:28PM

It is not your job to regulate your sibling's personality.

In my life I've never heard of that concept. Its not

realistic.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: September 08, 2019 03:00AM

You can't regulate the self esteem of your siblings. Even if you were with your siblings 365 days a year and 24 hours per day, ultimately you could not make the changes for them that only they can make in and for themselves. Your siblings do need to help themselves, but it has little to do with object constancy in any form.

Object constancy or object permanence is simply the ability to comprehend that objects exist even when one no longer sees them, which is something that most of us grasped before three years of age. Twisting this into a "psychodynamic concept" is really little more than psychobabble.

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Posted by: Yaki-da ( )
Date: September 11, 2019 05:14AM

It has to be experienced. It is true. There are adults who did not develop that ability when they were kids.

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Posted by: LJ12 ( )
Date: September 08, 2019 02:02PM

Interesting article, and it seems you might have found something you feel explains toxic behaviour with your siblings. Do you think that they are Borderline? Or do you feel they have an anxious or avoidant (insecure) attachment style, that is very toxic when coupled with mormon shunning/judgments? You don’t go into any detail.
What I hear is that the time you have spent with family has been integrated by you into your emotional make-up. You value those interactions. Yet you discover that to them it’s as if none of it happened?? Very painful when it is family, it’s wrong, and it’s not your job to fix them.
I too have experienced this with people to a certain extent. I place value on friendships I’ve thought I’ve made, due to interactions I’ve had with them. Then I’ve been dissed by them; I’m dealing with this right now with a group of friends. I feel in retrospect I’ve over valued them as people, and imagined we connected when perhaps we didn’t. It makes me question myself a lot, and wonder why they don’t like me. But then, on the other hand I feel like saying “Gee, I’m sorry I offended you with my open, non judgmental, friendly, positive regard”
I’ve also experienced this with my family. They are emotionally detached and have insecure attachment styles. At least being aware of it I can do my own healing so I stop attracting/putting up with this pattern in my life. I don’t think it is psychobabble. There are just more than one way of looking at things, and sometimes more than one thing can apply too.
I’ve had to detach from people who do this. It’s too painful, and I feel I tie myself in knots trying to fix it. The double bind is that often people who are toxic to us, are that way as they are presenting with a problem to us, but then look to us to fix it! They take and take then ask for more as well, whilst blaming us the whole time.
Have I got any of this right? This is my experience. But don’t feel shame, indifference is what happens when you’ve been drained. You didn’t do that.

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Posted by: LJ12 ( )
Date: September 08, 2019 02:09PM

Btw, if it really is clearly that they have BPD, then that is an even bigger reason to stay away. Unfortunately borderline people are very covertly abusive.

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Posted by: exminion ( )
Date: September 08, 2019 06:27PM

We hear you! Yaki-da.

Understanding a problem is the first step--and biggest step--in solving it. Your post describes my family, too.

Susan I/S wrote: "In my family of origin I saw early on how "good mormons" took advantage in all ways of "sinners". Took of their time, emotions and money. When you heard from them it was because they WANTED something. Oh I love you = give/do for me. Money is bad enough but the Emotional Vampires are the worst to me."<<< Susan I/S. This was true of my Mormon family, too, and most of my Mormon fake-friends. Still, removing myself from them was heartbreaking.

LJ12 wrote: "The double bind is that often people who are toxic to us, are that way as they are presenting with a problem to us, but then look to us to fix it! They take and take then ask for more as well, whilst blaming us the whole time. Indifference is what happens when you've been drained."<<<

Please, try, and do everything you can to stop feeling shame! You are still buying into your family's false assumptions that YOU are supposed to fix them! I'm sure they blame you, because people like that blame everyone else but themselves.

Some Mormons in my life were physically abusive, and I finally had therapy as an adult. My therapist had to convince me that these toxic people DID NOT LOVE ME. He almost had to shout, to make me understand this truth. It might ease your pain to realize that your siblings are not capable of loving anyone--not just you. It isn't your fault. It isn't your responsibility.

You are wrapping your brain around the fact that you can NOT change your siblings. You, yourself, are a loving person, and it is hard to just give up on those you have loved for your whole life! I'm sorry you are having to deal with this, but the outcome will eventually bring you peace.

Detach. That's good advice. I ended up having "no contact" with my bully brother, when he started being cruel to my children--that was it for me! With each individual, you will establish your own personal boundary, which he/she can not cross. This is healthy, for you. This is my advice. It can't be set in stone, or one-size-fits-all, but must be implemented one person at a time. Your boundaries can be changed with the occasion (such a funeral), and altered as a child grows out of a stage in life. I believe that information can make people change, sometimes. I think human beings are more flexible and adaptable than we realize; otherwise how could our species have been so successful in surviving? In general, Borderlines and Cluster B's anr more rigid than is normal, and they are not successful. They end up being homeless or in jail. You might have to be strong, in turning your back on problems as serious as this, but your priority is your own survival and the survival of your wife and children.

(I did not bail out my nephew, a sociopath who stole huge sums of money from me and my family. Yes, I feel a twinge of guilt, but only a twinge. Read about the Mormon's very sick version of "forgiveness" vs. truly letting go and moving forward in your owl life.)

As for the past, congratulate yourself for being the kind of person YOU want to be, and setting a positive example for your family. Your efforts were real, and any "changes" that did or did not happen were up to each individual. If you believe in living-in-the-moment, you created many moments of joy for all!

Your barbecues, your offers of friendship and concern--these helped YOU! This is one of the great secrets of life: the love you give to others is more important than any love they might (or might not) give to you. You don't need to have any regrets for all you have done for your siblings. You are better for it.

Congratulate yourself. Detach when necessary. Avoid feelings of guilt and shame.

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