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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: September 10, 2019 03:20AM

I follow Dr. Jen Gunter on Facebook. She is a Canadian OB-GYN who is very vocal about protecting women's reproductive rights. She unapologetically provides abortions and has written a well-received book called The Vagina Bible.

Last night, she posted a blog post she wrote about "premarital exams" being offered by the University of Utah's OB-GYN office. Clearly, she hasn't had much exposure to Mormonism, so this concept was completely foreign and weird to her. I was heartened to see that besides me, there were a few folks who were brought up Mormon who explained.

Personally, I have mixed feelings about the "exams" myself, although I was never LDS. I don't think it's bad for young women to find a health provider with whom they are comfortable. And given how sexually repressive Mormonism is, it's not a bad thing to have a frank discussion about sex with someone in the know, although I think the same should be offered to men. But I don't think they should be "premarital exams". I think they should be regular doctor's appointments.

Hell, I think the Mormons simply need to join us in the 21st century and stop being so weird about what comes naturally. Every time I think of what it must be like to be two LDS garment wearing virgins trying to consummate their marriage after having been taught sex is forbidden, dirty, and wrong unless it's to make babies, I want to puke.

Anyway... her post is well worth a read, I think. https://drjengunter.com/2019/09/09/why-does-the-dept-of-ob-gyn-at-the-university-of-utah-offer-a-premarital-exam-for-women/?fbclid=IwAR0xQfHXK3NkVpS7wGSV195NrW1IchPNrDB7epKKxAWy4pQh62c0G0wbXJY

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Posted by: munchybotazv2 ( )
Date: September 10, 2019 04:00AM

I did not know that.

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: September 10, 2019 04:22AM

Apparently, young women can get dilators to make that first penetration less horrible and painful. I had heard of those before, but for conditions like vaginismus.

It was funny to read Dr. Gunter's horror at this. She mentioned the man being a "lazy lover", clearly not realizing that the men are often virgins, too, and they are wearing very unsexy underwear after having been told their whole lives that masturbation and sex outside of marriage is dirty and wrong.

It just sounds like a disaster to me. Lots of pressure and anxiety for that first time on the wedding night. Yikes.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: September 10, 2019 09:58AM

ditto.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: September 10, 2019 04:21AM

The Guardian (UK) published an excellent interview with her the other day:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/sep/08/jennifer-gunter-gynaecologist-womens-health-bodies-myths-and-medicine

As someone with 2 daughters, this is the sort of gynecologist I hope they have.

Tom in Paris

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: September 10, 2019 04:23AM

I am 47 years old and thanks to a horrifying first time at the gyno (Air Force doc who treated me like a slab of fatty meat), I have only had two exams myself. I wish I'd had a good, understanding, kind doctor like Dr. Gunter.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: September 10, 2019 09:59AM

will the government still let you get married if you fail to have a "premarital exam" ?

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Posted by: cl2notloggedin ( )
Date: September 10, 2019 11:11AM

I'd repeat the "Yikes!" I was very naive in so many ways. My future husband and the bishop filled me in on more stuff about sex than I wanted to know. I did have a premarital exam by a woman. I thought I had to. I stopped having them years ago. My OB was great (a man), although I had to have a lot of exams to make sure I wasn't going to go into premature labor with twins, which is normal. I was more worried then about my blood pressure being low enough as I had hypertension during my twin pregnancy.

So this guy wanted his fiance to have HIS FATHER check her hymen! WTF? Who is going to check his "hymen?"

I didn't use any dilators (I read here about that happening with doctors in Provo, I had never heard of such a thing).

My last doctor, a female family doctor, thought all her patients should have a complete physical every year. I hadn't had one for a LONG time, so I went along with it as I had shingles and I needed my meds for the pain. She wanted to do another exam the next year (as I have good insurance and we needed to use it--her statement) and I said NO!!! I have no problems. Never have. I'm 62. If I have a problem, I'll go to my current doctor, who I LOVE. Best doctor I've ever had.

But I didn't know that outside of Utah, premarital exams were not suggested. It really is ridiculous.

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: September 11, 2019 02:46AM

As far as I know, it is only a Utah thing. Maybe they do it in parts of Idaho, too. Hard to tell.

As for the hymen checking dad... I would love to know what religion that was. Fundie Christian? Muslim? Or just plain old perversion and patriarchal thinking. Either way, it's revolting. I'm so glad she called off the wedding, because I'd bet that was just the tip of the iceberg of what she would have been expected to tolerate if she had gotten married to that man.

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Posted by: frankie ( )
Date: September 11, 2019 09:52PM

I'm a Christian but I have never heard of other Christian people checking their future inlaw kid's hymens. I have heard about it from people who practice islam

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 11, 2019 10:15PM

What about the stories in which on the morning following the wedding night, the newlyweds hang out the bloody sheet?

...And they have fresh chicken for dinner...

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: September 11, 2019 11:19PM

frankie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm a Christian but I have never heard of other
> Christian people checking their future inlaw kid's
> hymens. I have heard about it from people who
> practice islam


Neither have I, but that doesn’t mean certain Christian sects don’t do it.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: September 11, 2019 11:35PM

Some Christians have Purity Balls with daddy dates which is creepy enough.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: September 11, 2019 02:35PM

When I was about 7 I began having episodes of blood in my urine. My mother, a harsh, unpleasant woman (an RN) who was prone to accuse first and ask questions later, demanded to know whether I had been "playing with myself." I wasn't sure what that meant, but since I was an only child who wasn't allowed to leave my yard very often, I spent a lot of time playing BY myself, so I guessed that that was maybe what she meant, and said hesitantly, "I guess so."

She took me to see a GYN doctor, a male. Can you imagine, a terrified 7-year-old, stripped below the waist, having to put feet in "stirrups," being screamed at not to cry or object or try to cover myself with anything, being promised with all kinds of punishments for trying to cover myself with a piece of clothing because I was so embarrassed? She hovered beside me, holding my hands so I couldn't push the doctor's hands away, constantly threatening to hit me for crying, and generally NOT enhancing the experience. It was cruel and unnecessary.

I would not learn until adulthood that the bloody urine was a very early manifestation of the kidney disease that runs rampant through several generations of my family.

Having been "exposed" to that male doctor and having had hands and instruments rammed into delicate places where they did not belong did NOT help me deal with sexuality when I grew up. It took me a long time as an adult, even though I knew that I was SUPPOSED to enjoy sex, to relax enough and trust my partner and have a more positive take on the experience. If adults only understood stuff like that. . .

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: September 11, 2019 03:22PM

Oh catnip, that is heartbreaking! And I thought my first exam was horrible!

I’m so sorry that happened to you.

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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: September 11, 2019 05:13PM

nothing in the discipline of medicine about any "premarital exam"

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Posted by: frankie ( )
Date: September 11, 2019 09:49PM

just get a vibrator and stretch yourself out. uses condoms and the morning after pill, incase those fail, make sure the sexually active have $100,000 in their checking account just in case they get pregnant, because I don't want my money paying for their abortion

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: September 12, 2019 12:17AM

Ha! My mother in-law gave us a fruit basket to take with us leaving the reception on the way to the hotel. In the fruit basket she stashed a tube of KY Jelly. Ha! Ha!

Who needs a doctor when the mother-in-law is there to help?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 12, 2019 12:29AM

Someone might could make some money baking KY Bread for to make some of that there KY toast, for some of that KY jelly!

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: September 12, 2019 01:16AM

At least you didn't get a gift like Secret Ceremonies author, the late Deborah Laake, got from her first father in law. He gave them a dozen lambskin condoms, which they were encouraged to reuse. And they did reuse them until the condoms got all dry rotted.

Nasty!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 12, 2019 01:22AM

Thank you for sharing that. My night would not have been complete. . .

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: September 12, 2019 02:19AM

I aim to please.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 12, 2019 02:24AM

Rolling eyes emoji!

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: September 12, 2019 03:07AM

Not sure why you're rolling your eyes. This kind of stuff is exactly what people like Dr. Jen Gunter should know about as they become acquainted with Mormonism. When I read her blog post and Facebook commentary, I could see that she didn't know anything about Mormon culture.

This isn't to say that Deborah Laake's wedding gift is "normal" among LDS people, but it does kind of point to the oddness that can come up in religious situations. Deborah Laake was a well-known Mormon who wrote a book that was widely dismissed as sensationalist when it was first published. I read it in the early 90s, before I knew anything about Mormons. I later told a LDS couple I knew that I'd read the book and they said it was full of trash and lies. They hadn't read the book, but were simply going on what they were told by church leaders.

Years later, I read it with my exMo husband, who confirmed that it was not full of lies. Was it kind of weird and somewhat scandalous? Yes, it was. But she's probably not the first Mormon bride to get such an odd gift.

I get that maybe you find my revelation of Laake's wedding gift disgusting, but so is the concept of premarital exams done solely for people entering into heterosexual marriages.

Anyway... I won't bother to argue with you about this, since you're rolling your eyes. Have a good night.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 12, 2019 03:43AM

You misinterpret my eye-rolling! I'm just reiterating how disturbing that image is. I don't doubt what you are relating, nor that it may well be true. This is a case where written English leaves room for misunderstandings that would not arise in face-to-face communication.

Sleep well.

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: September 12, 2019 03:56AM

Okay... I apologize for jumping to the wrong conclusion.

This thread is coming on the heels of two disturbing online conversations I've had with right wing Americans in America who presume to tell me what my life is like as an American in Germany. They tell me Germany is "overrun" with Muslims and crime ridden; I can't get medical care; and I'm not "safe" because I can't carry a gun. As someone who has lived in two different German states over the past five years, I find those comments ludicrous, but still they insist they're right. I have a bit of a thin skin when it comes to being discounted, so I misinterpreted what you meant.

My husband is also about to sue our ex landlady, who has made false accusations about my husband and me and has maligned my character. That doesn't help me stay non-reactive. I feel like I have to be in defense mode 24/7. :D

Incidentally, it's morning here. I figured the folks in the States would be going to bed.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 12, 2019 04:04AM

Hey, don't apologize. I spoke imprecisely, so my bad.

I'm sorry to hear about your online debates. It is absurd the stuff that people in the States say about Europe despite disavowals from European residents who, despite appearances, sometimes have eyes and ears of their own. And I'm saddened to hear about the legal problems. Never fun.

Anyway, I am an American night owl, an American who spends a lot of time in Europe, or a European residing in the States who still keeps European hours. So good morning!

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: September 12, 2019 04:24AM

Yes, I am particularly upset about the legal issue. However, one of the nicest things about living in Germany is that one can buy legal insurance. We pay 250 euros and get court costs and legal fees (for both sides, should we lose) covered. And my ex landlady did a whole lot of things wrong before she ripped off 80% of our deposit (just over 2500 euros). When she got the demand letter from our lawyer, she added another 5000 in “damages” that she can’t prove, and accused us of theft.

So yes... very stressful. It almost makes me want to move back to the States. But then I remember who is running the country and it doesn’t seem so bad here. At least we have a lawyer who speaks English and is competent. This will work out... and we’re close to some wonderful European cities we can visit when things get too tense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2019 04:33AM by knotheadusc.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 12, 2019 04:31AM

You should definitely move back to the States. No one ever sues anyone here. And the advantage of not having a Cologne Cathedral or Brandenburg Gate is that we don't have to worry about the Muslim terrorists lying in wait behind them!

Rolling eyes emoji.

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: September 12, 2019 04:35AM

Yeah... I just remember how I felt last time I landed in the USA after living in Europe and take a deep breath. I can survive without almost everything I miss, and I am a lot less likely to be shot.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 12, 2019 04:36AM

:-)

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: September 12, 2019 03:07AM

He must have fell asleep in health class. You aren’t supposed to reuse them.

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