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Posted by: Daniel Tapping ( )
Date: September 23, 2019 07:28PM

I finally saw It (pt 1) at the weekend. I thought there was an interesting story of relevance to our former dependence on Mormonism.

There is an African American boy in it, whose dad is a butcher. His father takes him to a slaughterhouse, and tries to get him to use the bolt gun on a sheep. He refuses because he is too cowardly. (A key point since he later develops a pair of cojones in the movie which allows the plot to progress.)

Anyway, later on the boy is taken back again by his father to kill the sheep and he manages to do so.

His father tells him that he must make his choice, that he will either be the one using the gun or on the receiving end. If he prevaricates and delays making that choice, the father says, someone else will make it for him, and he won't know unless it's too late.

It's a brutal object lesson, but it is true. We are either masters of our own destiny or someone else is deciding it for us. We become men, as opposed to boys, when we develop self-reliance, and the ability to live outside a system of control.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 23, 2019 07:38PM

Forks in the road often appear more than once in our lives. "Failing" in one choice, by another's perception, really doesn't have the relevance that person wants to give it. Oh, sure, it could, but it isn't a mortal lock.

I think it's possible to end up where you end up after a lifetime of choices, not all of which were the best choice, and still feel satisfied with the life you lived.

Many of us might/could/may have a regret or two about a choice we made and still feel that we did okay.

Perfection? Good for whoever achieved it.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: October 15, 2019 06:36AM

I've always found making my own choices very empowering. For the most part my choices have turned out well, but sometimes not. But at least they were *my* choices and not someone else's.

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Posted by: LJ12 ( )
Date: September 24, 2019 02:58PM

I’d say the better choice would be to not kill the sheep, but I get your point. Courage to make a choice, and also, I see that sometimes we have to make pre-emptive strikes.
When I resigned I cut everyone off because I knew that’s what they would do to me. And I didn’t explain beforehand, only after it was done. I grew a pair of cajones...or should I say a backbone, seeing as I am a woman (yes I’m pointing out this isn’t just for boys and men ;)).

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: September 24, 2019 03:25PM


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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 24, 2019 04:01PM

Ovaries, and the estrogen/progesterone potion they produce, can be every bit as powerful as testosterone. You go, Mamma Bear, you go.

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Posted by: LJ12 ( )
Date: September 24, 2019 04:09PM

But at the wrong time of the month I am dangerous.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 24, 2019 06:27PM

Daniel Tapping Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyway, later on the boy is taken back again by
> his father to kill the sheep and he manages to do
> so.
>
> His father tells him that he must make his choice,
> that he will either be the one using the gun or on
> the receiving end. If he prevaricates and delays
> making that choice, the father says, someone else
> will make it for him, and he won't know unless
> it's too late.
>
> It's a brutal object lesson, but it is true. We
> are either masters of our own destiny or someone
> else is deciding it for us. We become men, as
> opposed to boys, when we develop self-reliance,
> and the ability to live outside a system of
> control.

How is killing a sheep "the ability to live outside a system of control"?

Lots of soldiers men and women are taught to use guns and train them on other men and women. Was the sheep going to kill the boy? Was the sheep a stupid sacrifice for some masculine standard of "control?"

How was a father leading a boy to a sheep being a "master" "of our own destiny"?

Seriously the object lesson is lost on me. Self reliance is great and to what degree you can cultivate it great. You could try being a mountain man. Then you can find and kill sheep? And rape them as well.

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Posted by: Avowed Meateater ( )
Date: September 25, 2019 11:25AM

Because if you do not have the courage to act when you need to, then you will become a victim yourself. That was my take-away from this scene. The kids need to confront and kill Pennywise, their enemy and greatest fear. Bowing out of it and saying, "I can't kill clowns, because they have feelings", is not an option.

If the sheep had been living in the wild, it would not die of old age. If a wolf didn't get it, it would get its leg stuck somewhere. (And if people all stop eating meat, most livestock will end up being killed).

If the kids don't kill Pennywise, then he will kill them. And it is easier to kill a sheep than a clown. Pennywise feeds on their fears and insecurities and ridding Derry of him will be good for all.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 25, 2019 12:53PM

Avowed Meateater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the kids don't kill Pennywise, then he will
> kill them.

Kill or be killed. I think we all avoid making that decision and when it presents itself we decide. It isn't a virtue to even decide that a suicide is immoral.

If killing for meat was such a virtue we would buy live animals at the market.

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Posted by: ufotofu ( )
Date: September 26, 2019 02:40AM

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Daniel Tapping Wrote:
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> How is killing a sheep "the ability to live outside a system of control"?
>
You could try being a mountain man. Then you can find and kill sheep? And rape them as well.

Look, EB, All "mountain men" don't kill and rape animals. One is for a reason. The other is for craziness. You a sound crazy, and certainly off color. Come on now

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 26, 2019 10:37AM

ufotofu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Look, EB, All "mountain men" don't kill and rape
> animals. One is for a reason. The other is for
> craziness. You a sound crazy, and certainly off
> color. Come on now

I don't know much about mountain men. Maybe you could tell me many of them are vegans living off their mountains.

"You a sound crazy"

And making the allusion to kill or be killed when it comes to domestic animals doesn't???

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: September 24, 2019 06:46PM

This is an issue that has bothered me in recent years especially. We had sheep as my dad was over the FFA at one high school and he got them for my brother for his FFA project. My brother loved all his sheep. My dad named every one of them. Then we showed them at the county fair and sold them, and then they were taken to be slaughtered. My brother would cry over each one.

There is NOT ONE of our family who eats lamb. Even the grandchildren and great grandchildren.

I know I did something questionable by marrying who I did. I did what they told me to do. I believe I've made it work out. It took a lot of work to get to where I am, but even my TBM daughter thanked me for making it possible for her to have her dad in her life. I have a strange life, but it fits me.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 25, 2019 12:50PM

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know I did something questionable by marrying
> who I did. I did what they told me to do. I
> believe I've made it work out. It took a lot of
> work to get to where I am, but even my TBM
> daughter thanked me for making it possible for her
> to have her dad in her life. I have a strange
> life, but it fits me.

You did what you could to survive and thrive. I admire you. We both followed a path setup by Mormonism and are making do with what we have. We are the people that don't fit into their molds. Hopefully breaking them will mean something to our kids someday.

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: October 15, 2019 07:49AM

"I did what they told me to do. I believe I've made it work out."

I think the choice made was made because you thought it was the right thing to do. This was an opportunity and a choice. Sometimes the choices we make are made from what others think we should do. And sometimes the choices we make are because we have limited options.

I see some folks who get all the breaks in life, it's a choice between this millionaire or that one, a house in Cottonwood, or a house in Deer Valley. Should I be a SAHM-princess who paints or a SAHM-princess who sings? Then there are others who have to choose between nothing and something. Mormondom loves to condemn those kinds of people. If they were more righteous they would have had a better option, is their way of thinking. It's an ugly culture.

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Posted by: Anon for the moment ( )
Date: October 12, 2019 05:32PM

The whole movie is about fear, like someone says above. When we're kids, we fear really dumb things like clowns.

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Posted by: Bolty McNolty ( )
Date: October 15, 2019 03:45AM


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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: October 15, 2019 06:39AM

In terms of life, I like the metaphor of sailing. Let's say you want to go from point A to point B. The wind (symbolizing other people and forces beyond your control,) will try to buffet you about this way and that. But if you use your skills to set your sails properly, and use good tactics, you can usually get to where you want to go.

What I try to convey to younger people is that if you don't decide where you want to go, and form a plan to get there, then the "wind" (outside forces) will decide for you. And you may very well land up someplace you don't want to be.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2019 06:41AM by summer.

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Posted by: robinsaintcloud ( )
Date: October 15, 2019 09:56AM

Seen outside the knitting store on Center street in Provo last week was a sidewalk sign that stated "Woman have ovaries, therefore they ovary". Thanks to anyone who can tell me if that has a double meaning, or even just a single meaning.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: October 15, 2019 05:26PM

"Men have balls, therefore they 'ball'" would be the baseline from which the street sign evolved.

That's my very prejudiced guess...

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