Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: DNA ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 02:19AM

I actually don't believe in hell, or heaven for that matter.

But I have Muslim students in my university courses. And they are worried about me going to hell. It's because they like me, and it's genuine concern. But here's what I tell them.

If there is a hell, I think I'll like it there best. I think I'm a good person. And if people like me go to hell, there's bound to be many more like me there.

When I get there, I'll migrate over to my people and hang out. We'll all think and act similarly and enjoy each other's company. They will be my people.

If I went to heaven, my people wouldn't be there. And I would be sad and miss them. So if I go to hell, I think for me it will be good. My people will be there and we'll have a good time together.

They act very surprised, and it's the first time in their lives they heard someone say they are looking forward to going to hell.

It's the same speech I'd give to a Mormon if they asked.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 04:54AM

(The following is my cut-and-paste from a previous thread)

I don't take the Biblical imagery of fire and brimstone literally, nor "gates of pearl," streets of gold, and the Messianic banquet, but as symbolic. regarding Heaven, “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, have entered into the heart of man The things which God hast prepared for those who love Him" I Cor. 2:9 NKJV). Whatever the Lord has in store for "those who love Him" will be wonderful, beautiful, and perfect.

But what about Hell? Setting aside the imagery as symbolic, consider the *concepts" of Hell as depicted in the NT. There is inescapable heat, absolute isolation and alone-ness,* pressure, and being so lost that God CANnot (not "does not") hear the prayers of the lost. Also, there is no possible escape from Hell.

I think a black hole demonstrates those qualities extremely vividly. The pressure exerted is so intense, the temperatures "are off the chart," as an astral physicist friend of mine said (she has a doctorate). Not even light gets out. Lastly, a person in the confines of a black hole would be aware of reality outside it, but anyBody outside would have no cognizance of, or communication with, somebody inside. Thus, God "CANnot hear the prayers of the lost."

Do I believe this is what Hell actually is? Not really. But it's powerful astral imagery!

*This is in response to wiseacres who joke, "I'll be in Hell, partying with my friends." Not according to the Bible.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 07:16AM

Universities have come a long way when you can get a PhD in Astral Physics.

Denial is easy in life, impossible in the afterlife. People in Hell cannot forgive themselves for what they’ve done in this life so it’s an inescapable form of self torment. This doesn’t bode well for Mormons, who are caught in a clever system of denial that causes them to not treat people (including themselves) well.

There’s the possibility of being rescued by Christ, but how many Mormons are Christians in their heart? I think it’s a mixed bag. Being a Mormon doesn’t guarantee anything. I doubt being a pretentious doofus increases your odds of going to heaven.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 09:57AM

Being a Mormon doesn't guarantee anything? Being a Christian doesn't guarantee anything either. A sizeable majority of the population of planet Earth are not Christian, and spend no time worrying about Christ bailing them out.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 10:05AM

Any being that would send its own children to eternal reward or eternal punishment based on finite actions (or inactions) isn’t a god, it’s a hideous, evil monster.

I don’t waste any time worrying about whether or not such a monster exists.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 12:07PM

CrispingPin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any being that would send its own children to
> eternal reward or eternal punishment based on
> finite actions (or inactions) isn’t a god,
> it’s a hideous, evil monster.
>
> I don’t waste any time worrying about whether or
> not such a monster exists.


That's exactly what I was thinking, just before I read your comment.

So I'll just say, "Ditto for me."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 01:12PM

CrispingPin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any being that would send its own children to
> eternal reward or eternal punishment based on
> finite actions (or inactions) isn’t a god,
> it’s a hideous, evil monster.

This thought was probably --once-- a comforting rationalization to many H*tlers, St*lins, Ted B+ndys, and any number of thugs, goons, and creeps. "This is all there is, all there ever was, and all there will ever be. So why not get what I can, however I can, as long as the getting is good?"

Morality is, after all, only a human construct.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 01:16PM

I don't think religion would have helped them. Religion is not going to help a sociopath.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ptbarnum ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 07:47PM

You are 100% right, religion does not help a sociopath become a better person. It does, however, help them manipulate, exploit and abuse better people.

I have already been to "hell". I grew up there, born an empath to a sociopathic father and a codependant mother. There's no supernatural evil place I fear after growing up in that environment, there is in fact little left that frightens me at all, anymore, after surviving what I did. I weighed 35 lbs. when the abuse I can remember started. If something that small and innocent can survive what I endured then, what has my soul to fear of torture now?

Also, after a childhood spent in the front row of the How to Be Evil classroom with a real life monster, if some deity wants me to play cosmic roller derby in some craphole punishment dimension, they should expect I can and will use my elbows. I learned from the best, and it won't be me locked in with the demons, it'll be the demons who feel locked in with me.

Fortunately breaking bad wasn't my takeaway from childhood. I like to be a good, ethical, honest and helpful person and I am committed to leaving a legacy of countless positive acts done for myself and others. That is what makes life joyous for me. That is how I want to be remembered. Perhaps the people I helped will go on to perpetuate a pay-it-forwardness that will create a world with fewer sociopaths and fewer mangled child victims. If that plays out, I cannot think of a better way to have spent my mortal time. Whatever comes next can not tarnish the treasure I imparted to those I left behind.

As it is, though, I don't believe in hell. I don't believe in the traditional God being as defined by religions, and am agnostic about the existence of some greater consciousness or intentional deterministic quality to the universe. I just haven't seen anything like that, and am not going to spend another minute worrying about pain raining down from some omnipotent authority. Thst concept is pathetically human.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 09:20PM

We have largely come to the same conclusions.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: commongentile ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 06:21PM

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CrispingPin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Any being that would send its own children to
> > eternal reward or eternal punishment based on
> > finite actions (or inactions) isn’t a god,
> > it’s a hideous, evil monster.
>
> This thought was probably --once-- a comforting
> rationalization to many H*tlers, St*lins, Ted
> B+ndys, and any number of thugs, goons, and
> creeps. "This is all there is, all there ever was,
> and all there will ever be. So why not get what I
> can, however I can, as long as the getting is
> good?"
>
> Morality is, after all, only a human construct.

The following is from Flannery O'Connor's story, "A Good Man is Hard to Find." An escaped convict called "The Misfit" is talking to a character called "the grandmother," right before he murders her:

"Jesus was the only One that ever raised the dead," The Misfit continued, "and He shouldn't have done it. He thrown everything off balance. If He did what He said, then it's nothing for you to do but thow away everything and follow Him, and if He didn't, then it's nothing for you to do but enjoy the few minutes you got left the best way you can-by killing somebody or burning down his house or doing some other meanness to him. No pleasure but meanness," he said and his voice had become almost a snarl.

"Maybe He didn't raise the dead," the old lady mumbled, not knowing what she was saying and feeling so dizzy that she sank down in the ditch with her legs twisted under her.

"I wasn't there so I can't say He didn't," The Misfit said. "I wisht I had of been there," he said, hitting the ground with his fist. "It ain't right I wasn't there because if I had of been there I would of known. Listen lady," he said in a high voice, "if I had of been there I would of known and I wouldn't be like I am now."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: December 01, 2019 12:34PM

There's this god, see.
And this god hears prayers, see.
Except from jews, see.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 11:20AM

Muslims are the wrong religion therefore they are going to other religion's hell.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: laperla not logged in ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 11:56AM

1. Being confined with another person who won't shut up. Trivial, I know.

2. The hell that I have wrought on the earth. I actually think about this - becoming intensely aware of all the trash and resources I've squandered. I did not walk lightly on the earth.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 01:24PM

Huis Clos

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 02:38PM

"L'enfer, c'est les autres"

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 04:57PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Jaxson ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 12:32PM

>> But what about Hell? Setting aside the imagery as symbolic, consider the *concepts" of Hell as depicted in the NT. There is inescapable heat, absolute isolation and alone-ness,* pressure, and being so lost that God CANnot (not "does not") hear the prayers of the lost. Also, there is no possible escape from Hell.

Hey, I live in Bakersfield (where a company is paid $1000/day to clean up human feces off of downtown sidewalks/streets). That description of HELL sounds like an upgrade to me. LOL!!

Even when I was an active member I could never wrap my head around hanging out for eternity with a bunch of TBM's. I secretly yearned to go to a lower kingdom.

The promise of being reunited with my family has ZERO appeal to me. If they are there to greet me...I will give them the "sure sign" of the middle finger. It has a name - "Fuck You!!" For me, I can think of no greater HELL.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 01:20PM

"where a company is paid $1000/day to clean up human feces off of downtown sidewalks/streets" ...
So why don't you show us what a good citizen you are and get out there and help clean up.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Jaxson ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 01:32PM

I do my part by not shitting on the sidewalk. Also don't want to rob the company of the satisfaction that comes by doing a job well done.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 02:40PM

So tell us when you are going to move away from california since you hate it so much.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Jaxson ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 05:01PM

Wish I could leave yesterday. I grew up in beautiful SoCal (Santa Monica), but Cali is nothing like it was back then. Even Bako was not that bad a place 20 years ago, but now it is a REAL shit-hole. Too many ties currently to allow me to leave. Maybe someday.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 05:33PM

In 1994, I was an ultrasound tech at Mercy Hospital(s). When I was on call, I'd drive back and forth between the two. I had potholders in my car so I could hold the steering wheel when I started the car (I didn't drive with them ;) ).

But is was a dry heat...

I was glad to get the hell out of there.

I miss the drive to Morrow Bay on poorly-maintained narrow twisty turny roads. I miss driving to King's Canyon. I don't miss blowing a head gasket on the grapevine. I don't miss valley fever. I don't miss hanta. I do miss tumbleweeds. I didn't know they were a real thing; I thought they were like the fake ACME holes in Road Runner cartoons. Once we were stuck in the house until I realized that two were jammed against the front door.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 05:36PM

I blew a head gasket once -- had my mechanic repair it. I wouldn't do that again.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 05:45PM

There's a highway somewhere that takes you through orange groves past a fish hatchery on the way to Ventura. I think it's near Magic Mountain. Anyway, the car died at night on this road. No cell phones no nothing.

I walked until I found a payphone. The tow truck people thought my call was a prank because I couldn't tell them where I was. Meanwhile, mosquitoes were tearing my ass up, and I was waiting for someone in a hockey mask to jump out of the orange grove with a chainsaw. Bad deal.

RIP POS Ford Escort GT

Now that I think about it, I'd better have my current beater checked out. It's not overheating, but there is a distinct whiff of radiator fluid but no discernible leak. I wish I had a horse.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 03:16PM

Why don’t you get out there and help drum up business?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ptbarnum ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 08:05PM

If I never see TBM MIL again until the universe ends, it will be too soon. Some people are not meant to interact. She and I are on utterly opposing poles about everything.

When I was in the Celestial Room after my endowment I realized that there wasn't much I dreaded more than being in her family literally forever, and I remember feeling so guilty about that. I also didn't get it...how could parents with adult children be "together forever" when we were all supposed to be busy pumping out souls for our own worlds?
I seriously don't want her over for dinner here in this world...chumming around for eternity with her and TBMs like her? No thanks, that's hades.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 01:23PM

I hope they get an education from the university so they see through religious threats like hell from a "loving" god.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: November 17, 2019 06:52PM

People can only be saved from their sins, not in their sins. What sins actually are is up for debate because all have sinned. I hate to repeat Mormon crap, but they cribbed that from much older religions. If someone is in Hell, it’s not because God wants them there.

It does make you wonder if it’s possible for any being to emotionally handle the job. Maybe after WWI he was so wiped out that he didn’t show up for the Holocaust. Perhaps “God” is an intrinsic property of matter, or the Universe is built from love.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2019 07:45PM by babyloncansuckit.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: SoCal Apostate ( )
Date: November 18, 2019 08:23PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ookami ( )
Date: November 18, 2019 09:37PM

If people worry about me going to Hell, I just tell them, "I grew up with a narcissist father and lived in Tooele, Utah for a while. Been there, done that, should have gotten a souvenir T-shirt."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 19, 2019 05:14PM

Yup. For me, it's, "I taught in urban classrooms for more than two decades. Feel free to judge me."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ziller ( )
Date: November 18, 2019 11:18PM

good luck with your 2019 burning in hell goals OPie ~

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: TX_Rancher ( )
Date: November 20, 2019 12:23AM

On the one hand, I love your response...(to paraphrase) "If I go to hell, all my friends will be there." Love it and going to use it.

But I don't understand the scenario if you go to heaven. None of your fiends will be there? If you end up there, why not them?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: DNA ( )
Date: December 01, 2019 02:31AM

TX_Rancher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On the one hand, I love your response...(to
> paraphrase) "If I go to hell, all my friends will
> be there." Love it and going to use it.
>
> But I don't understand the scenario if you go to
> heaven. None of your fiends will be there? If you
> end up there, why not them?


According to mormons and Muslims, I'm definitely not going to heaven. So I don't consider it an option when talking with them.

But my trump card is that if there is a heaven, I'll tell God that it was reasonable for me to not believe in him. I'll say, "You did such a crappy job, how could I believe?" Your plan was stupid. Boink Mary and make Jesus, then have him killed. What kind of plan is that from a master of the universe? Not help people in need, but have the preachers tell them that you will help. What kind of planning is that? For a master of the universe, you just do too bad of a job for it to be reasonable for me to believe you existed.

And maybe he'll agree and let me in.

My brother said, "So your plan is telling God he's stupid?" Good luck with that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: November 20, 2019 12:37AM

Well said, DNA, well said.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: December 01, 2019 12:31PM

If you had a child who disobeyed you, would you murder them as a punishment? I don't believe in any god who would issue permanent eternal punishments to someone for their disobedience about anything, especially for something that some other man said that god said not to do. The concept is beyond ridiculous. I do what I can to be a good person and I don"t worry about the afterlife. Neither god nor anyone else in this universe has the authority to treat me abusively. If anyone has the means to treat me unfairly and I can not stop them, why worry about that now anyway? But I tend to believe that god 8s fair and not abusive. The Mormon cult is entirely a different story.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ptbarnum ( )
Date: December 01, 2019 01:18PM

This is one of my biggest gnawbones about common theology. Why do we assign attributes to a perfect, omniscient being that we consider distasteful in our own species?

It's like Zeus and his famous libido. Or how Isis had to use dead Osiris's naughty bits to impregnate herself with Horus because, as a mere female, despite being the most powerful magician in her group, she couldn't challenge Set without a princely son to cement her power base. We view these stories as primitive, pre-industrial metaphors now...yet there were whole generations of people who honestly believed these things happened. Why can't modern people see that YHWH Elohim is no different?

I worry about what new God definition will emerge from the collective psyche to replace the current description. We keep making God in our image. Maybe we should relax a bit about it and explore our cosmic neighborhood a little, and if we manage to meet some other smart jumped up monkeys (or octopus, or birds) we will be forced to reconsider a more inclusive and expansive cosmic being free from human personality constraints..or the acknowledgement that there is no such thing and we can be free to be good to one another just because cooperation is a good evolutionary strategy.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
  *******   **    **  **     **  ********    ******  
 **     **  ***   **  **     **  **     **  **    ** 
 **     **  ****  **  **     **  **     **  **       
  ********  ** ** **  **     **  **     **  **       
        **  **  ****   **   **   **     **  **       
 **     **  **   ***    ** **    **     **  **    ** 
  *******   **    **     ***     ********    ******