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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 05:45AM

Thanks for everyone’s help and support on the last thread. Quick recap if you didn’t see it or don’t want to read 35 pages...

I am a Divorced Dad who is spiritual but not religious. Ex wife secretly converted to Mormonism almost a year ago and has been hiding it. I just found out. I have two daughters, 4 and 8. We have absolutely 50/50 joint custody, physical and legal.

On the advice of those here I have engaged my attorney to write a letter to her bishop, CC’d to the stake president over him and to the membership records office in SLC. The letter will assert my joint custody and and state that I do not consent to my daughters being baptized or participating in private interviews. Letter should be in their hands some time next week.

I have several questions, which I will put in their one follow up messages in hopes it will make it easier to follow people’s responses on each topics.

Thank you for your time and your help.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 05:57AM

QUESTION 1. “Tithing issues”

In the last thread it was suggested we address tithing and child support. The basic idea is to stop her from tithing 10% of the child support.

Does anyone know of a mechanism to prevent that? Can it be mentioned in the letter? Some other mechanism?

And more generally, how does the church calculate “income” for purposes of tithing? I have read somewhere they look at he gross, not the net, meaning you tithe on your gross salary, not after taxes. So its basically like an additional 10% tax. Is that accurate?

If they will count child support as income, what about other things like SNAP benefits (food stamps) or Section 8 (rent assistance). Does the church consider those things “income” for tithing purposes?

My ex was already low income by choice so she could get maximum child support and public assistance. She has advanced degrees and could make a lot more if she chose to. If financially supporting the church is a big part of getting into Mormon heaven wouldn’t deliberately being under-employed be cheating the church? Or does she get a pass on that for being a woman (with child rearing being her primary “duty” to the church?)

If the church is asking her tithe in cash on child support and food stamps she is likely VERY strapped for cash.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 08:07AM

There may not be any practical way that you can prevent your ex from tithing on child support payments. Just run it by your attorney and follow his guidance.

The church does not give any official guidance on whether tithing should be on gross or net, or whether or not benefits are subject to a tithe. Members do both (tithe on gross or net,) or sometimes tithe on the money left over after paying for basic expenses. You have to understand that church-induced guilt can play into this heavily. A lot depends on the bishop as well.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 03:26PM

Do you think she might make the kids tithe? If I give them $20 for Christmas shopping is she going to take $2 for the church? Do I have to make them keep their money at my house?

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: November 28, 2019 03:57AM

You know her better than we do. No one is going to force her to make the kids tithe, although they might want to themselves due to peer pressure. Church leaders will certainly encourage it. If she is the type of person who cares about approval from authority figures, maybe she will make them tithe. Personally, I wouldn’t make them keep their money at your house, though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2019 03:57AM by knotheadusc.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 28, 2019 09:01AM

> If
> she is the type of person who cares about approval
> from authority figures, maybe she will make them
> tithe. Personally, I wouldn’t make them keep
> their money at your house, though.

That is her in a nutshell. She imprints on an older man and chases his approval... up until she decides he is no longer the answer to all of her problems and then she turns on him and declares him abusive. As I might infer, that is our story. =(

I have decided to just let the kids have money and if she makes them tithe it (or they choose to via peer pressure) so be it. Maybe that will be a wedge that disillusions them.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 06:03AM

QUESTION 2. “Other Prohibitions”

Are there other things I can prohibit legally that I should be thinking ahead about and can address in this letter also? I feel there is so much to know and I don’t know what I don’t know.

Two things I was wondering if I could prohibit perhaps.

MISION. Can I also note that I won’t consent to them being sent on a mission until they are of legal age? Or can they only go on a mission if they are full members of the church and by blocking their baptism I effectively block this?

BINDING. Can I specify that they may not bind my children to any other male in the church? I find that whole topic beyond creepy. Assigning my kids to some other father in the afterlife? WTF. Maybe the same mechanism applies- if I prevent baptism they can’t bind them to anyone because they can only bind church members?

OTHER THINGS. Anything else that I haven’t discovered yet that the church may do that directly involves my children that I could prohibit by preventively asserting my custody rights to their leadership?

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 08:09AM

The two big ones are baptism and private interviews. I would prohibit *any* bishop interviews.

Missions won't come up as a topic until your children are in high school. Your ex may be out of the church a whole lot sooner than that.

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Posted by: Infrequent Observer ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 02:43PM

Missions don't happen until they are 18 or 19, so legally, there's no impact you can have there anyway.

There isn't any "binding" to men in the mainstream church. If you're talking about one of the polygamous offshoots, then you have a different issue entirely.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 03:30PM

> There isn't any "binding" to men in the mainstream
> church. If you're talking about one of the
> polygamous offshoots, then you have a different
> issue entirely.

I’m just reacting to things I’ve heard here. There have been stories of children being “bound” to non-related males in second families here. You’re saying that’s not mainstream and those were fundamentalist sects?

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 04:48PM

He’s referring to sealings, which is a valid concern when one of the bio parents isn’t LDS.

My husband has his ex stepson sealed to him, even though the boy had a dad. It’s just that his ex had cut his dad out and she and her ex hadn’t been LDS when they were married. Years later, when Ex decided my husband was no longer appropriate, she got her first ex and her son’s real dad back into the picture.

Sealings are nothing but bullshit, unless you’re a believer.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 06:16PM

> Sealings are nothing but bullshit, unless you’re
> a believer.

I agree. My concern is the conflict it would put in their poor little hearts. “Mommy’s new husband will be your Daddy in heaven” is child abuse, IMO.

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: November 28, 2019 03:16AM

I totally agree, and that’s why I think you’re right to be concerned. Even a lot of adults who marry Mormons get upset over them.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 06:09AM

QUESTION 3. “Mormon Baptisms”

I looked at the calendar and when my wife has had my oldest daughter since she turned 8. I am attempting to determine if she could have had her baptized already. (And if your response is “just ask her” I may if I have to. But I try to take the high road and I am loathe to put her in a position where she feels she has to chose between us. I don’t run down their mother and I generally don’t pry into what they do over there. Which yes is probably why it took me so long to find out she converted to LDS...)

My frame of reference is basically mainstream Protestant Christianity and they typically make baptisms part of a regular service so you can basically count on them happening on a Sunday. Do Mormons do the same? Do they do baptisms separate as their own thing? If so on a regular day or just as needed?

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Posted by: Infrequent Observer ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 02:45PM

Convert baptisms can happen any day of the week. Most are done on Saturdays.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 03:33PM

Infrequent Observer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Convert baptisms can happen any day of the week.
> Most are done on Saturdays.

That tracks. The date she gave me for her baptism was a Saturday.

Now my kids... they were 7 and 3 when she started taking them to the LDS church, 8 and 4 now. They were baptized as infants in a mainstream Protestant denomenation. Are you saying they would be considered “convert” baptisms as well? Because they have been previously baptized in another church? Hence they would do them on Saturday?

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 08:23PM

It's like most other xtian religions who baptize or sprinkle baby's heads: the previous baptism(s)don't count because that previous church got religion alllll wrong. Even in the head sprinkling ones, you usually go through confirmation when you're about 12 years old or so.

Without getting too much into the weeds, it's the religions that see baptism as a sacrament that are more aggressive about baptism than those who see it more as a symbolic act.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 06:12AM

QUESTION 4. “Temple Questions”

I keep seeing the phrase “in the temple” regarding ceremonies and things. What does that mean, exactly?

My understanding is that the regular place they go is a “Meeting House” and that’s where regular services and worship take place. Other things are special and have to take place in “temple”, is that right?

Would that include things like marriages and funerals? Baptisms and bindings? What exactly?

Also I presume they don’t all have to get to SLC every time they need to do something in the temple. So I presume there are local ones? Or at least ones that are closer than SLC?

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Posted by: Infrequent Observer ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 02:47PM

There are temples throughout the country. Marriages and what they call the endowment only involves adults.

The only think your kids might be welcome to do is baptisms for the dead that also take place in the temple for children 11 and up in age. But, that is only for baptized members, so again, if you have your bases covered on that, no need to worry about that for a while.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 03:33PM

> The only think your kids might be welcome to do is
> baptisms for the dead that also take place in the
> temple for children 11 and up in age. But, that
> is only for baptized members, so again, if you
> have your bases covered on that, no need to worry
> about that for a while.

OK. Good to know. Thanks.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 02, 2019 07:40PM

There are four (?) temple ceremonies:

1.   baptisms for the dead.

   Those souls who died without the opportunity to be baptized while here on earth MUST be baptized by proxy before ghawd gets to wrap up this phase of existence, meaning the use of the Earth as a place where his spiritual children (born of all his many, many wives [yes, it does beg the question, 'why don't eternal humans, made of flesh and bone have flesh and bone babies?]) can descend from on-high to get physical bodies. This is a big, big number! And they ALL are going to get proxy dunked, by kids between 12 and 17! They have to be dressed in white, thus your pink & brown nippleage may vary.

2.   taking out one's endowments

   This is now a very tame ceremony, compared to when I had to mime seppuku, as well as slitting my throat. What a rush! But one still does learn secret handshakes and one gets a secret name. But no more five points of fellowship, although I think some old geezer once tried to create six points of fellowship, the ol' perve! What's really cool about this ceremony, which you do for yourself once and then as a proxy for all those proxy baptisms the kids are doing, is that you get to learn something new each time you do it! People say so and why would we doubt them? I once thought that while the ceremony is quite rote, that it was the time you could spend in the Celestial Room that allowed you to commune with the spirits, but I was always hustled the hell out; no loitering in the Celestial Room!

3.   Temple Marriage

   Marriage for all time and eternity. I did this after meeting a coed at BYU in late October, getting engaged during X-mas vacation, after a day at Disneyland, and then tying the knot in the St. George temple the day after classes ended the following May. These marriages are executed (a word I chose to create a mood) after completing an endowment ceremony, in a Sealing Room, where, unless you're a big-wig's kid, a guy you never met before says some rote verbiage while the two of you are kneeling across from each other with a narrow upholstered ledge between you and while he's saying what he's got to say, you're thinking if it would be okay after the ceremony to ask people to leave the Sealing Room, while you close the door and deflower your virgin on that upholstered ledge. Virginity... But mostly you have to wait until you get to the parking lot.

4.   Second Anointing (also known in my house as the Second Annoying)

   You may have read the recent thread on this. You have to be popular, you know, like a cheerleader or first-team varsity on a sports team that matters. Track? Nope. The 2nd Annoying is a perk; some people know about it and keep hoping for it and others are clueless until they get word to show up at a temple to meet with an apostle on a SUNDAY!! The apostle does holy things to the guy's feet and then the anointed couple lay on their backs with the soles of their feet pressed together and hum a John Denver song...No wait, that's a Kurt Vonnegut novel... But it's close to that... It's holier than hell!!


   Here's a link to a list of YouTube videos that show undercover videos of two of the ceremonies. I entered the temple a Mormon and came out of the temple a mormon, convinced that there was no way mormonism had any kind of a connection with a deity.


https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mormon+temple+ceremony

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 06:19AM

QUESTION 5. “Ward Assignment”

They are given no choice what meeting house/ward to participate in, correct? The church assigns it by geography. You look it up on the internet. Presumably they had another mechanism in the olden days. LOL

Which means, if she moves (something my ex has done almost 10 times since the divorce) she would end up in a different ward, correct?

I ask because some people have told me to mellow out, most mormons aren’t crazy and aggressive, aka “God’s law trumps man’s law” type of thing. But I worry that even if the ward she is currently in is relatively mellow, what if she moves and ends up in a different ward lead by a different bishop who is not that way?

Again, in my frame of reference (mainstream Protestant) people often move but still travel back to the same church as before. Just because they like it or that’s where their friends are, etc. My understanding is that is NOT an option with LDS. Do I have that right?

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 08:13AM

>>They are given no choice what meeting house/ward to participate in, correct?

Correct. Church members are assigned to a ward. They are heavily discouraged from attending another ward.

The assigned ward may or may not be the one closest to her house.

Bishops vary widely. Some are wonderful, some are awful, with everything in between. Some might require your wife to tithe on every cent she gets. Some might exempt public assistance from tithing, and give her church assistance in the form of money, bill payments, and/or food. There is no way to predict. A lot of this hinges on the temple recommend, which will not come up until the one-year point for your ex. If she wants the recommend, she has to play ball.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 08:31AM

> A lot of this hinges on the temple
> recommend, which will not come up until the
> one-year point for your ex. If she wants the
> recommend, she has to play ball.

Ok, what is a temple recommend? She can’t get into the temple without it? I still don’t understand what temple is relative to the regular meeting house. What can she do with it that she can’t do otherwise? Trying to understand why she would want it and how bad.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 03:10PM

elove Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Ok, what is a temple recommend? She can’t get
> into the temple without it? I still don’t
> understand what temple is relative to the regular
> meeting house. What can she do with it that she
> can’t do otherwise? Trying to understand why
> she would want it and how bad.

A temple recommend is needed to enter the temple. To get one,you have to pass an interview with the bishop and stake president (you can google the questions), and particularly must pay tithing.

The temple and the regular meeting house are not the same.

Sunday services (sacrament meeting,sunday school, relief society are held in the wardhouse (meeting house)).

In the temple mormons perform certain ordinances that they think are necessary for salvation, namely endowment and sealing (what you referred to above as binding). The endowment ceremony is available for viewing online by the way. According to mormonism, every person must have these ordinances as well as baptism performed in order to reach the highest level of heaven.

A person does it for themselves the first time they go to the temple. After that they do it by proxy for dead people. They also perform baptisms for dead people in the temple. If your children were to get baptized it would not be done in the temple (unless they die first).

If she really believes in mormonism,she would want those done because she would believe that it is necessary for her eternal salvation.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 03:37PM

> In the temple mormons perform certain ordinances
> that they think are necessary for salvation,
> namely endowment and sealing (what you referred to
> above as binding). The endowment ceremony is
> available for viewing online by the way. According
> to mormonism, every person must have these
> ordinances as well as baptism performed in order
> to reach the highest level of heaven.
>
> A person does it for themselves the first time
> they go to the temple. After that they do it by
> proxy for dead people. They also perform baptisms
> for dead people in the temple. If your children
> were to get baptized it would not be done in the
> temple (unless they die first).
>
> If she really believes in mormonism,she would want
> those done because she would believe that it is
> necessary for her eternal salvation.

Just making sure I follow here. She would want those things done to HERSELF for HER salvation... OK... but does she also have to get them done for MY KIDS for HER salvation? In other words do they teach she endangers her own salvation if she can’t keep her kids in the church?

Trying to get a feel for how hard they are going to fight.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 03:48PM

>Just making sure I follow here. She would want those things done to HERSELF for HER salvation... OK... but does she also have to get them done for MY KIDS for HER salvation? In other words do they teach she endangers her own salvation if she can’t keep her kids in the church?

No, she only needs to have them done for herself. Your kids would need to have them done for themselves. Baptism is the only one they could have done before age 18.

However... if she should remarry a mormon, then she might get sealed to her new husband. In mormonism this means that they would be married for eternity in heaven. If that occurs, then she might try to get the kids sealed to her and her new husband. In mormon belief, that would make the kids part of her and her husband's new family for eternity.

If she doesn't remarry and get sealed, someone will seal you and your kids to her after you are all dead.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 04:11PM

> However... if she should remarry a mormon, then
> she might get sealed to her new husband. In
> mormonism this means that they would be married
> for eternity in heaven. If that occurs, then she
> might try to get the kids sealed to her and her
> new husband. In mormon belief, that would make the
> kids part of her and her husband's new family for
> eternity.

Would they do this without my consent? If I am still in the picture as a full time, joint custodial Dad?

I mean its one thing if I disappear and they never hear from me... or if I die... but I sure hope they don’t literally try to steal an active and invested father’s children in the afterlife.

> If she doesn't remarry and get sealed, someone
> will seal you and your kids to her after you are
> all dead.

Was this a serious comment or a facetious comment about post mortem baptisms? Or does the very fact that she ever joined the church mean that some busy body there will bind us all in 100 years thinking they are doing some great thing?

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 04:53PM

Well...Joseph Smith did it. He married the wives of other men and some of the women he was with were actually girls as young 14. They don’t see it as disrespectful. It’s all about their belief system. And as a non Mormon, your feelings count less in their eyes.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 04:53PM

>Would they do this without my consent? If I am still in the picture as a full time, joint custodial Dad?

They might try. One more reason why getting your objection on record is important.


>Was this a serious comment or a facetious comment about post mortem baptisms? Or does the very fact that she ever joined the church mean that some busy body there will bind us all in 100 years thinking they are doing some great thing?

Very serious. Mormons believe that EVERY person who ever lived must have 1.Baptism 2.Endowment 3. Sealing to reach the highest level of heaven (Celestial Kingdom). They have people searching for names of dead people all over the world so that they can perform these ordinances for them. They have gotten in trouble in the past for performing them for Holocaust victims. Even more perversely, they performed them all for Hitler.

They will do baptisms, endowments, and sealings for the dead for any name they can find. It doesn't even require your having a family or former family member being a mormon. They have members who go through old census records, immigration records, old church records, or anything they can find anywhere in the world to get names to use for this purpose.

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Posted by: flutterbypurple ( )
Date: December 02, 2019 06:52PM

Was this a serious comment or a facetious comment about post-mortem baptisms? Or does the very fact that she ever joined the church mean that some busy body there will bind us all in 100 years thinking they are doing some great thing?

Very serious thing to faithful Mormons. My mother was born and raised in the church. She married a man who was not Mormon. He later got baptized to please my mother.
They never went through the temple though to be sealed to each other.
The marriage did not last and they were divorced when I was a baby. My mother hated my father for very good reasons I might add.
He went on to marry someone else. When he died his then current wife went through the temple to have him sealed to her.
My mother died about 11 years later. Three years ago I found out that my niece a very devout Mormon and her husband went through the temple and did my mothers temple endowments and then had her also sealed to my father. So now my mother who hated this man is sealed to him for all eternity along with the woman he married after the divorce to my mother.
When I confronted my niece about how she could seal her grandmother to a man she hated I got the it is necessary for her eternal salvation.
Good thing it is all made up and really means nothing.

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: December 03, 2019 03:00AM

My husband's ex wife once told my husband's mother, long divorced from his father, that she intended to do temple work to get my husband's parents sealed to each other. This, even though she and my FIL divorced in 1969 and he's been married to his second wife for about 40 years. Also, Ex hates my husband's mother and has for many years... She supposedly likes my husband's stepmother somewhat more (although frankly, I think she hates most everyone).

I don't think she ever went through with the made up bullshit, but just the idea that she could take it upon herself to do this stuff on behalf of other people is an inkling of the sense of entitlement some people in the church have. Some of them think they're really doing the right thing, while others probably get off on thinking they have the power to manipulate such things in the afterlife.

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Posted by: praydude ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 02:09PM

To me the church is such an obvious scam that if you sit down with your kids and explain why it is such a scam they can at least see your side and then make up their own minds about it.

My advice is to empower your kids with the information they need and let them make up their minds about it.

I divorced my TBM wife and my kids were caught in the middle of cult-parent and exmo parent. At first they wanted to side with mom and be in the cult but over a short period of time they saw that the cult was not for them nor was it true in any way.

It is terrible that kids are forced or manipulated by one parent to join the cult. Perhaps point that out to your ex if you are still talking to her. If not your kids will figure it out on their own as long as they have a present father in their lives.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 03:43PM

> To me the church is such an obvious scam that if
> you sit down with your kids and explain why it is
> such a scam they can at least see your side and
> then make up their own minds about it.

Yeah, I joke that all I need to inoculate myself from falling for Mormonism is one chorus of a Marilyn Manson song. LOL

> My advice is to empower your kids with the
> information they need and let them make up their
> minds about it.

And I will. But somewhat subtly if possible. I have always taken the high road and never run their mother down, etc. I don’t real any want to start in with the “your Mommy is wrong” talk if I can avoid it. That said, she has hidden this from me for at least 9 months so she has a head start and clearly is not “playing fair”. So if I have to come down off the high road and step into the mud a little I will.

> I divorced my TBM wife and my kids were caught in
> the middle of cult-parent and exmo parent. At
> first they wanted to side with mom and be in the
> cult but over a short period of time they saw that
> the cult was not for them nor was it true in any
> way.

TBM = True Blue Mormon? Had to google that. =)

So the kids were raised Mormon by both of you and then you divorced her and left the church (or vice verse) and they figured it out and left also?

If so that is enheartening. I have no doubt that if this had happened when they were 14 and 10 after being around me their whole lives this would bounce right off of them. My concern is their young, impressionable ages, and my having taken the high road and avoided this realm until now.

> It is terrible that kids are forced or manipulated
> by one parent to join the cult. Perhaps point
> that out to your ex if you are still talking to
> her. If not your kids will figure it out on their
> own as long as they have a present father in their
> lives.

She is not conducive to rational discussion or debate. I try. I get yelled at. LOL

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Posted by: Infrequent Observer ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 02:54PM

The key here is to communicate with your ex. "Officially", the church wouldn't allow your kids to be baptized if you have officially opposed it. The sticky part is that it's not actually the Bishops who handle baptisms for people who are considered "converts". The missionaries are responsible for those and often have limited connection to the local leadership. So, if an 18 year old missionary decides that he'd rather lie about having obtained parental permission than lose a baptism, then you have some trouble.
So, what you really need to do is communicate with your ex that you do not consent and that if you find out that they've been baptized, there will be legal consequences.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 03:52PM

> The key here is to communicate with your ex.
> "Officially", the church wouldn't allow your kids
> to be baptized if you have officially opposed it.
> The sticky part is that it's not actually the
> Bishops who handle baptisms for people who are
> considered "converts".

I asked this above, but I don’t care where it is answered. =)

Are my kids considered converts? They were baptized as infants in the mainstream Protestant practice but were not old enough to be confirmed or have first communion or anything.

I was thinking they would not be considered converts but maybe they are?

I get that if they are considered converts anyone could baptize them and it would likely be a Saturday. But if they are not considered converts how would the baptism go down? On a Sunday at the regular service or something else?

> So, what you really need to do is communicate with
> your ex that you do not consent and that if you
> find out that they've been baptized, there will be
> legal consequences.

That communication is forthcoming from my attorney. I have the kids right now for the holiday. If she has not gotten the letter from the attorney by the time she is supposed to get them back I may say something as you suggest.

Not gonna have her sneak and baptize the oldest one a day before she gets the letter from the attorney. That’s why I’m asking so much about how the 8 year old’s baptism would go down. She has only had them 2 days since she turned 8- a Saturday and a Sunday.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 04:11PM

The normal process for baptism of children at age 8 is that they are baptized on Saturday evening, and then confirmed in sacrament meeting on Sunday. This routinely happens on Fast Sunday which is the first Sunday of the month. So if it were to happen before the letter arrives, your daughter would be baptized this coming Saturday, and confirmed on Sunday. If you have them this weekend, then it won't happen before the letter arrives - unless it has already happened.

Usually, all of the kids the stake in who turned 8 last month are baptized on the same day. Converts can be baptized any day.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 04:17PM

[|] Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The normal process for baptism of children at age
> 8 is that they are baptized on Saturday evening,
> and then confirmed in sacrament meeting on Sunday.
> This routinely happens on Fast Sunday which is the
> first Sunday of the month. So if it were to happen
> before the letter arrives, your daughter would be
> baptized this coming Saturday, and confirmed on
> Sunday. If you have them this weekend, then it
> won't happen before the letter arrives - unless
> it has already happened.
>
> Usually, all of the kids the stake in who turned 8
> last month are baptized on the same day. Converts
> can be baptized any day.

YES! Just the info I needed. So this Sunday is Dec 1 and is the first Sunday of the month and thus “fast Sunday” and I have them so no baptism. As long as the letter gets there before the first Sunday in Jan I should be OK.

I swear. This is all so kooky. So many twists and turns that only an insider would know. I don’t know what I’d do without this information. Thank you so much, everyone.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 04:38PM

Hang around here for awhile and you will know more about mormonism that you ever wanted to.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 02:54PM

I think focusing on legal stuff is going to make your situation much more problematic. The kids might convert and be pushing into being more Mormon.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 03:55PM

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think focusing on legal stuff is going to make
> your situation much more problematic. The kids
> might convert and be pushing into being more
> Mormon.

That’s a chance I’m willing to take. Sorry.

The alternative is giving her the future argument that I did not object. To keep one’s rights in a civil matter like this you must assert them. Otherwise they can argue you gave them up.

Which I will not do. I will stand my ground and assert my legal rights per the decree.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 02, 2019 01:02PM

elove Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That’s a chance I’m willing to take. Sorry.

Don't be for me. I have no children in this game.

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Posted by: synonymous ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 03:13PM

OK, let's take these in order.

Tithing - it really depends on the bishop/branch prez. Some are reasonable, others are hardasses. If ex is tithing on child support, the courts may look unfavorably on taking food money from children and giving it to a multi-billion church, and may provide an opening for your attorney to have the custody agreement modified in your favor.

Mission - not to worry. The church's minimum age for a mission is 18. The church needs to have legal adults as missionaries in order to claim that missionaries are genuine "volunteers." But sometimes teenagers will be assigned to accompany full-time missionaries for a day in order to get them used to it for their own future mission.

Binding/sealing - it's a purely religious rite, not legally enforceable, and AFAIK protected by the 1st Amendment. First she'd have to find a man and, as the women on this board can attest, the pickings are going to be VERY slim.

Temple - where the "special" rites are performed. Sealings, marriages "for eternity," etc. It's also where baptisms for dead people occur. Also, what mormons call the "endowment." That consists of putting on robes, chanting some phrases, receiving a "new name" and learning the secret/"sacred" handgrips that will grant entry into mormon heaven. No, I'm not making any of this up. (Did I mention that mormonism is a cult?) They don't have to go to SLC, there are 150 or so scattered around the globe. There might even be one near you!

Temple rec (TR) - she needs this to enter the temple. Possessing a TR is a virtue signal of "worthiness" to other mormons. It's the church's primary leverage to foster obedience; to get one, members must jump through whatever hoops their bishops and stake prez throw at them, tithing included. The church is pay-to-play, literally selling heaven for money. (Again, cult.)

"God's law trumps man's law" - I think that was me, but it was in the context of making them *more* aggressive, not less. Since they're on god's side, in their minds they can do what they want.

Other/misc - retention rates for new converts are extremely low; we think maybe 10-20% stay after the first year. After the attention and love bombing subsides, converts wake up to what they've signed up for, and usually don't like what they see. There's a good chance the magic will wear off for your ex.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 04:01PM

> Other/misc - retention rates for new converts are
> extremely low; we think maybe 10-20% stay after
> the first year. After the attention and love
> bombing subsides, converts wake up to what they've
> signed up for, and usually don't like what they
> see. There's a good chance the magic will wear off
> for your ex.

OMG. Synonymous... I dedicate to you this Elton John song...

Somebody saved my life tonight!

She is absolutely a quitter and has gone through more jobs and addresses since the divorce than you would believe. She has never, and will never be in the top 10% of anything. LOL

If 80% walk and she can’t keep a job for 8 weeks I think I can relax a LITTLE. Thank you so much!

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Posted by: desertwoman ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 06:57PM

Summer said:

"Bishops vary widely. Some are wonderful, some are awful, with everything in between. Some might require your wife to tithe on every cent she gets. Some might exempt public assistance from tithing, and give her church assistance in the form of money, bill payments, and/or food. There is no way to predict. A lot of this hinges on the temple recommend, which will not come up until the one-year point for your ex. If she wants the recommend, she has to play ball."

We have a word for what Summer described. We call it "Bishop Roulette".


After the baptism of a convert, the convert attends church meetings where lessons are boringly repetitive over the years, generally consisting of "Every member a missionary", and "Of course, you'll want to go to the temple to be sealed to your family and ancestors". Entering, or "going through", the temple is the next level of church membership hierarchy. That is why the temple recommend is important. The temple recommend is the church's major source of income. The TR is the stick used to beat tithing out of its members.

Think of the Mormon Church (Mo-church) as a Multi-Level-Marketing scheme. "Every member a missionary" means to find willing non-mormons to baptize, known in the MLM world as adding to your down-line. In a commercial MLM, salespeople recruit people into their down-lines while looking forward to a "piece of the sales" made by their new salespeople. The only difference between the Mo-church and an MLM is that the church is the entity that receives all the money. Mormons acting as member missionaries look forward to receiving their "piece of the sales" in the next life, a.k.a., the Celestial Kingdom.

I hope this gives you a little better understanding of what we escaped and why it can take so long, if ever, to get it out of our systems.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2019 06:58PM by desertwoman.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 11:50PM

> "Bishops vary widely. Some are wonderful, some are
> awful, with everything in between."
>
> We have a word for what Summer described. We call
> it "Bishop Roulette".

So question- when I meet this guy, any tips on how to tell if he’s wonderful or awful? Things I should ask him about? Etc?

And if you’re wondering why I would want to meet this guy... oh I fully plan to. I will visit their services and see what they are exposing my kids to.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 11:55PM

Lying for the Lard.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 09:25PM

They are sneAky. They will by devious and clandestined means seek to overthrow any rights that you may legally have.
WATCH OUT FOR THEM!!!

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 27, 2019 10:31PM

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They are sneAky. They will by devious and
> clandestined means seek to overthrow any rights
> that you may legally have.
> WATCH OUT FOR THEM!!!

This would only be if she got remarried to a Mormon guy, right? They want to seal my kids to him... but on her own, single divorced woman... there is nothing they really can try to do, right?

Do they seal the kids to the mom as well or is that kind of a “goes without saying” thing?

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: November 28, 2019 03:31AM

There is no sealing unless there is a temple worthy married couple involved. There is no sealing to one parent. That’s between a male and female married couple. Women can take out their endowments— meaning, get the magic underwear- but they can’t go to the Celestial Kingdom by themselves. That is why temple marriage is so important, and why as a divorced, single mom, your ex could be paired off with an LDS man.

If she’s dating someone outside of the church, she will be encouraged to convince him to convert. My husband’s ex wife got her current husband to convert. However, I am not sure they ever got sealed, because she was sealed to my husband, and I am not certain that sealing was ever cancelled.

My husband did resign from the church, but we have heard from many people on this board that even after resignation, church officials will try to reach out to the other party when a member wishes to get a sealing clearance or sealing cancellation/temple divorce. The church will want to know if there is a reason the sealing shouldn’t happen. It’s all about collecting dirt, of course, or maybe convincing the other party to come back to the fold, since upon rebaptism, all “blessings” are supposedly restored. Abracadabra!

My husband has never heard from the church, and his ex is the type of person to throw that kind of thing in her current husband’s face to keep him in line, so I doubt they were sealed, even though they have children together. Supposedly, that would mean current husband's kids with Ex would belong to my husband if he ever went back to Mormonism and got his "blessings" restored. Men who have already been sealed, by the way, get sealing clearances, but women who have been sealed have to get a sealing cancellation, which isn’t easy to get, from what I’ve heard.

Women can only be sealed to one man, but men can be sealed to multiple women. Any children she has who are not sealed to another man would be sealed to her temple worthy husband.

But again... it’s only important because of the mental mind fuck it does on anyone who believes in it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2019 07:05AM by knotheadusc.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: November 28, 2019 05:35AM

Poor elove :) It IS confusing. And crazy. Like bat crap crazy. I swear no one is pulling your leg about this. The worst of the cray cray happens in the temple. By the time you get there you have already invested so much time/money and and the peer pressure is furious. Most first timers go with family and friends and they are too embarrassed to call out the cray and run. They don't tell you what is going to happen in advance. For most guys it is when they go before their mission and now they are pushing the gals too. A lot of women go when they get married, even more pressure. One of my aunts, the one with a reasoning mind, was so freaked out they had to call a Dr. to come to the house after and give her a shot of something just to get her to the reception. In recent years they have toned a few things down like the death penalties and some of the partial nudity but it is still weird and cray. Secret handshakes, secret names (but women are not allowed to know their husbands), weird ass underwear. Stick around and you will pick up more of the cray.

This will help you figure out some of our shorthand. https://www.exmormon.org/d6/drupal/abbreviations And FYI threads close at 60 but never feel odd about starting a part two :)

This will help you! This is Richard Packham who is very knowledgeable and a friend for 20 years. You will find a lot of other good info on his site :) http://www.packham.n4m.org/temples.htm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2019 05:57AM by Susan I/S.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 28, 2019 08:10AM

To add to what Susan has said, the church's founder, Joseph Smith, was a Mason. The temple endowment ceremony was based on Masonic rites. That the easiest way for a nevermo to think of it.

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