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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 09:34AM

“...nor had I understood til then how the shameless vanity of utter fools can so strongly determine the fate of others.”

—Philip Roth—
—The Plot Against America—

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Posted by: Anon Joe ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 10:40AM


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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 01:33PM

I guarantee that schrodingerscat can turn the discussion into a rant about JS's sex life. Everything can be made about Mormonism!

And the quote above does in fact sound like a reasonable comment on JS and his effect on the world. Or do you just not like Philip Roth. Interesting writer. I wouldn't want to shake his hand....

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 02:12PM

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wouldn't want to shake his hand....

Me either. He passed away 18 months ago!

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 02:45PM

Well, there is that. :)

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: January 04, 2020 01:21AM

I liked "American Pastoral" and "The Human Stain."

"Portnoy's Complaint" turned me off the guy for good. Tedious.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 02:50PM

Hey, Mr. Roth was kind enough to let me know that I wasn’t alone, there in the shower ...

And whose hand could you shake, Jer’sBro, if that was your standard?

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Posted by: Concrete Zipper ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 01:55PM

Jordan,

Instead of complaining, why don't you just avoid the site altogether. Go ahead, you'll feel better.

CZ

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Posted by: Not named ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 02:56PM

Concrete Zipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jordan,
>
> Instead of complaining, why don't you just avoid
> the site altogether. Go ahead, you'll feel
> better.
>
> CZ

Humor me here...
I'm toiling to see how the original post isn't party political? The novel it describes certainly is, and the timing of it appears to be so due to recent events in the Middle East. How does it fit within the board rules? (I support neither of your parties btw.)

I left the LDS because I question, not because I accept things on face value. They wouldn't allow me to express myself fully in Sunday School, Testimony Meeting etc. I may be out of the cage but I'm still in the prison.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 03:12PM

That the mormons wouldn’t let you “express” yourself fully has less to with mormonism and everything to do with your ego.

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Posted by: Not named ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 03:45PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That the mormons wouldn’t let you “express”
> yourself fully has less to with mormonism and
> everything to do with your ego.

I got shot down among others things for:

* discussing Greek and Hebrew in class e.g. pointing out Elohim appears to be plural, despite their own doctrine.
* changes in doctrine within my lifetime.
* asking about Kolob etc.
* why OD1 about polygamy seemed to be driven more by government persecution than prophetic revelation.
* when obedience and authority could be abused.

That's just for starters. You may not like me, but I don't think you would disagree with any of these.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 04:57PM

I don't dislike you. Could you be projecting?

And it bears repeating: "That the mormons wouldn’t let you “express” yourself fully has less to do with mormonism and everything to do with your ego."

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 02:14PM


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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 02:58PM

And the quote wasn't even off topic. I have no idea what the book is about, and unfortunately my reading list is long enough, that I likely will never get to it. Pity.

LW's work is already done. My immediate reaction when I saw the post was "and who is this officious little tyrant". I'm embarrassed to admit that the answer did not occur to me. Must work on my cynicism skills. Oy vey.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 03:19PM

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And the quote wasn't even off topic.

Oh, how funny. Your observation led me to realize that I had taken it as off topic (and political), due largely, I suspect, to the book title. But on a re-read, after seeing your comment, I can see how the quote could pertain also to religious leaders, like, oh, say, the Q12.


> I have no
> idea what the book is about, and unfortunately my
> reading list is long enough, that I likely will
> never get to it. Pity.

Here is the intro of an enticing synopsis in The New Yorker (by Richard Brody, Feb 1, 2017):


"Philip Roth’s novel “The Plot Against America” is a masterwork of counterfactual history, a what-if story in which Charles Lindbergh, the aviation hero and Nazi sympathizer, is elected President in 1940, leading to the widespread persecution of Jews in the United States. The novel is also a counterfactual masterwork of personal history. (Judith Thurman recently interviewed Roth about it in The New Yorker.) It’s not one of Roth’s Zuckerman novels or one of his Kepesh novels; it’s a Roth novel, composed as if it were an autobiographical tale, written by the adult Philip Roth about the child Philip Roth and his family—endowed with their real-life names, his parents, Herman and Bess, and his brother, Sandy—and set in Newark’s Weequahic neighborhood, where the novelist was, in fact, raised.

"The Philip of the story is born, like the real-life novelist, in 1933. Soon after Lindbergh takes office, federal policies are implemented to disperse Jews from urban communities and into the American “heartland,” and, in turn, to move non-Jews into Jewish neighborhoods. Philip’s father, Herman, is a staunch opponent of Lindbergh who’s horrified by the country’s turn; Philip’s brother, Sandy, sent to rural Kentucky for the summer as part of a federal program, has become an enthusiast for farm life among Gentiles; his older cousin, Alvin, joins the Canadian Army to fight with the British in Europe; and Philip’s aunt, marrying a collaborationist rabbi, glories in her presence at Lindbergh’s state dinner in honor of the Nazi Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop. As anti-Semitic pressure mounts, neighbors plan to emigrate to Canada, and Philip’s own parents consider doing the same. The leading journalistic critic of Lindbergh, the gossip columnist Walter Winchell (who was, in fact, Jewish), is assassinated, and American anti-Semites launch a wave of pogroms against American Jews that moves from the smashing of store windows and the burning of synagogues to murder."


https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-frightening-lessons-of-philip-roths-the-plot-against-america

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Posted by: Not named ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 03:36PM

The book characterizes opposition to FDR and the New Deal were led by anti-Semites and German collaborators. Which was not the case. It's as ludicrous saying that everyone who opposed German atrocities at this time was Stalinist. (Some were.)

The quote is clearly directed at supporters of a certain figure and their party today.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 03:44PM

It's terrible, isn't it?

If CZ doesn't enforce the rules against off-topic posts, it is only be a matter of time before someone starts a thread about the profound genetic differences between the races or even that scourge of civilized society, "fist bumps."

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Posted by: Not Named ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 03:56PM

I think you'll find those threads were STARTED by frequent posters. I think both those topics were done to death last year and led to some disagreement. That's all I say for now.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 04:00PM

"For now?"

Oh, the promise of more. Be still my beating heart!

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 03:45PM

Just reflecting back your gripe above.

As CZ, Administrator, is on this thread, it's obviously an OK topic. Kinda rude to carry on complaining.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2020 03:46PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 02:27PM


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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 02:40PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2020 02:41PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 03:14PM

Mormons are part of this "movement:"

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-frightening-lessons-of-philip-roths-the-plot-against-america


"But when fascism comes it will not be in the form of an anti-American movement or pro-Hitler bund, practicing disloyalty. Nor will it come in the form of a crusade against war. It will appear rather in the luminous robes of flaming patriotism; it will take some genuinely indigenous shape and color, and it will spread only because its leaders, who are not yet visible, will know how to locate the great springs of public opinion and desire and the streams of thought that flow from them and will know how to attract to their banners leaders who can command the support of the controlling minorities in American public life. The danger lies not so much in the would-be Fuhrers who may arise, but in the presence in our midst of certainly deeply running currents of hope and appetite and opinion. The war upon fascism must be begun there."


From John Thomas Flynn’s "As We Go Marching," (1944)

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 03, 2020 08:31PM

The great thing about Jordan's use of pseudonyms is the way that he reveals things about himself. We know, for instance, that when he first posted here as Jordan/Hwint, he was living in Alberta and happily married to a woman from a different culture who attended LDS church in a congregation that worshiped in her language. Then he disappeared for several years.

When he re-emerged a year or so ago, Jordan spoke disparagingly of marriage and of ethnic minorities (in Canada and the US), with whole threads dedicated to his racist views. He also said that no man should marry since marriage was a racket and men are mistreated in divorces. When I pointed out the fact that he had changed his story, he insisted that he had never been married and that the original Jordan and Hwint were not he. That game was soon up, however, for CZ announced that the three posters were indeed identical. Then Jordan assumed another facade in the Tara Westover thread and discussed his daughters amid more general political screeds. So we know that he was once happily married to a woman of a different ethnicity and language, had children with her, went through a difficult divorce, and is now deeply embittered about marriage and minorities.

Anon Joe is just the latest, apparently new, moniker. A quick perusal of the RfM annals, however, indicates that Anon Joe started posting here roughly when the original Jordan embarked on his sabbatical. The Anon Joe of five or so years ago is interesting because his posts described his terrible sexless marriage and his need for, and entrance into, a divorce. There are hints of his conservative politics and racism, to be sure, but the main focus at that point is on his marriage and marriage in general. Jordan may deny that Anon Joe is he, as he previously denied Hwint and many other aliases, but CZ has already confirmed the identity.

There is no need for him to pretend that he needs to use constantly changing monikers to preserve his privacy. In the first place, his personal story is clear in the posts of Jordan I, Hwint, CanuckExMo, LogicalCanuckExMo, Anon Joe, and Jordan II. That very clear record, plus the IP trail, mean that anybody can discover his personal story. In the second, it is highly unlikely that anyone here cares who Jordan is IRL.

But of course he knows that. The question is therefore why he continually insists on pretending to be someone else. Could it be that he enjoys the (attempts at) deception? Or does he think he can sneak in and continue his political rants and no one will notice?

What exactly is the point of the endless whack-a-mole?

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: January 04, 2020 02:39AM


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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: January 04, 2020 01:24AM

might be worth $100B.


ETA: I'm talking about the people running ChurchCo, not the tithing members.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2020 01:25PM by Beth.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: January 04, 2020 04:11AM

“Who is the greater fool? The fool or the fool who follows him” -Obiwan Kenobi

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: January 04, 2020 09:58AM

I was one of the biggest fools of all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2020 11:04AM by cl2.

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