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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 10:20AM

I think this is more of a rhetorical question for the RfM community.

If I announced today that I was rejoining the LDS church, would any of you try to persuade me to do otherwise?

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 10:34AM

messygoop Wrote:
> If I announced today that I was rejoining the LDS
> church, would any of you try to persuade me to do
> otherwise?

Earlier in my exMormonism I would have. Today no. At least going back you would have full knowledge of their abusiveness.

"My colleagues and I were perplexed by these results. These pups should have learned to avoid the odor. It took time for us to change our thinking and view the infant brain as a brain designed for infant survival, rather than as an incomplete adult brain. We were completely surprised by the paradoxical result that pain would lead an infant to approach, even seek, a newly learned odor. We were even more astonished by the ability of maternal presence to reinstate this paradoxical learning in older pups. Once these initial results were uncovered, we wanted to determine the mechanisms involved."

Mormon leaders know that maternal and familial influences are their most potent weapons in keeping their abusive corporate control of their members. Additionally, merely a Stockholm Syndrome could account for seeking out this odiferous corporation again to smell their stink.

King Lamoni's wife was converted because "but as for myself, to me he doth not stink." The death and dead smell of Mormonism smells like home and a comfort for many members and ex-members alike.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 10:38AM

For me, integrity is to explore the other person's point of view, not sway it.

I would hope you are looking at a wide panoramic view as you make any decisions regarding returning to the Church of Joseph Smith.

Integrity is looking not only at what is best for you, but how your actions affect others. Offering a point of view, facts to consider, new information, are all a good thing. Manipulation* is quite another.

Must admit this can be a useful tool at times, though.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 11:24AM

> For me, integrity is to explore the other person's
> point of view, not sway it.


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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 12:23PM

Agreed. Tasking us with keeping people out of the church isn't the definition of integrity.

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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 10:43AM

I would ask you why, and then take it from there.

I doubt that it would be out of ignorance about the church, so it would most likely be for a more personal reason; such as a sense of community or trying to impress a fine Mormon lady.

If it were the former, I'd probably say, "Hey, as long as you stay away from the kool-aid, knock yourself out and be sure to report back anything you see within the belly of the beast." It's kind of what I am doing while I attend SM with my wife.

If it were the latter, I'd remind you of the difficulties maintaining relationship with a TBM while you had knowledge the the church is nothing but a figment of Joseph Smith's imagination. I'd suggest that you reconsider such a relationship.

But ultimately, it's your life and you are free to do what you feel is best for you. I'd like some assurance that you were going back with your eyes wide open.

And hopefully I would have delayed you long enough for the others to gather a rapid-response team to storm your home.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 10:51AM

Unfortunately, the victim role is more often female: please understand that domestic abuse can involve any type of relationship--boss/employee for example. Currently I'm trying to help a daughter in a control/abusive relationship with her mother.

As a cop who worked nights, mostly, I encountered quite a few domestic abuse calls. Some where repeat customers: the victim had returned to the abuser. It defied common sense: "You know he's probably going to beat you up again, why are you here?"

"I love him."
"He made promises to change."
"He's in anger management." (Anger MIS-management?)
"I don't have anywhere else to go."
"I thought it would be different this time."

Etc. etc. etc.

So we lock him up, get another restraining order, and see them again in a few months.

My theory: These victims were conditioned to be victims from an early age. It's what they saw and experienced when they grew up, and this is the model -- it even has rules--that they know and abide by. They really don't understand, at an essential level, what a healthy, sharing, compassionate relationship is.

Would I try to persuade you? Given an opportunity for a calm discussion, I'd bring up the domestic abuse parallel. But after that, I'd have to respect your agency. Besides, arguing against such deep-seated bonding hardly ever accomplishes anything.

"As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly" (Prov. 26.11).

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Posted by: ptbarnum ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 11:27AM

Caffiend, you're 100% right in my experience. Learned helplessness and codependency are conditioned behaviors that usually start young.

Everyone in my IRL support group experienced early childhood mental manipulation and we all find our passive, submissive and over-accomodating behavior to be deeply ingrained along with a deep fear of full personal empowerment--and the accountability that goes with it. The urge to "give them just one more chance" is so strong.

Since the cult is often intertwined with a sense of family bonding, and there is such a dysfunctional and domineering, intrusive parenting style in Mo families that is a reflection of the cult's groupthink and thought reform, a lot of Mos experience this same type of abusive early childhood programming as we children of narcissists did. In fact, a lot of BIC kids have narcissistic abusers as parents AND the cult brainwashing from an early age. They honestly don't know that this stuff isn't normal or healthy, and that programming runs deep.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 11:41AM

ptbarnum Wrote:
> They honestly
> don't know that this stuff isn't normal or
> healthy, and that programming runs deep.

So true. Most things about my parents made me sad, mad, or want to be bad. And yet simply by having their roles are father and mother they were exonerated and meant to be honored. The children of the over compensation in their parent's narcissisms are taught to over compensate to make the Mormon world view fit. They are categorically taught to see abuse as the norm and even respectable.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 02:08PM

Caffiend: I respect the fact that you were a cop. I was a volunteer with Victim Services, working alongside police officers on many calls. I admired their courage and compassion, their knowledge and resourcefulness, practical natures and problem-solving capabilities and many other fine qualities. We too attended many domestic abuse situations. I was always afraid, though the abuser was never on scene in our presence but his spectre always loomed large to me. On one call, the woman's husband had threatened her with a machete. Among my worst nightmares. Once the scene was secured the officers left. We were helping the lady to pack and leave her abusive husband. I tried to settle down my extreme anxiety but couldn't manage it, worrying that her husband would burst through the door any minute swinging his frightening weapon. Finally, I told myself that as civilian volunteers we didn't need to be alone on a call that provoked such fear and I called the police to come back, which they did. I admired them for facing such situations potentially on every shift. Truly, they are the ones who run towards danger when every human instinct is to flee.

I spoke to many well-educated, bright, capable women who had good careers, who were also being abused by their partners. One told me that she knew for a fact that even if she moved across Canada she still would not be safe (and her circumstances were such that that could well have been true; can't go into details).

There are many reasons that women find themselves in such a situation as well as myriad reasons that they have trouble getting out, among them lack of resources, not knowing how to handle it, thinking or hoping things will improve, as well as the crippling shame they feel at having to admit what's happening and tell family, friends, co-workers, employers. Their feelings towards their abusive spouse are complex and may involve not wanting to involve the police, among other reasons to stay in the situation, and stay silent.

caffiend Wrote:
> As a cop who worked nights, mostly, I encountered
> quite a few domestic abuse calls. Some where
> repeat customers: the victim had returned to the
> abuser. It defied common sense: "You know he's
> probably going to beat you up again, why are you
> here?"

The reasons are complex, as said. It's not as simple as "why are you [still] here?"

> My theory: These victims were conditioned to be
> victims from an early age. It's what they saw and
> experienced when they grew up, and this is the
> model

Perhaps in some instances. Not always, by any means.

> "As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool
> returneth to his folly" (Prov. 26.11).

Even as a Christian, I am repelled by this scripture in this context. People who are being abused are not "fools" or guilty of "folly". It may seem so to those on the outside who have little or no understanding of such situations. Unfortunately, such a simplistic idea is of no help to them.

Below is just one account, among countless others, of a woman's experience with domestic abuse.

"Why it’s hard for women to get out":

Excerpts from above article:

“There are so many reasons women return to their abusers — financial insecurity, a lack of emotional support from friends and family and even fear of what will happen next. Sadly, nearly half the women slain in the U.S. from 2003 to 2014 were killed by their partners, and 75 percent of those homicides took place after they left.

“It’s hard to understand abuse from the outside. It’s not black and white. It’s more than just a raised fist. Abuse happens on a spectrum, and it happens slowly. Much like a lobster in a pot, you don’t know you’re in danger until the water is already bubbling around you. You’ve already been cooking for a while the first time you get hit; you just didn’t know it.

“So you convince yourself that was the first and only time, but then it happens again. By that time, you’re too scared and too embarrassed to ask for help because you’ve convinced yourself that you crawled into the pot and lit the stove all by yourself.

“When you’re in it, it’s lonely and scary, and it feels as if you’ll never get out. It is possible, but sometimes it takes a few tries. Maybe you go back because the world seems so much colder on the outside. Maybe you go back because it feels safer to be where you can see the pot. I went back in because I believed him when he said, “Come on in. The water is fine.”

“When I look back on things, it’s easy to see the cycle of abuse, but when I was in it, it wasn’t quite as clear. It’s embarrassing to admit to that, to all of it, because really, what kind of a person does let someone treat her that way? What kind of person does end up in a relationship like that?

“Apparently, a person like me.

“And maybe even a person like you or like someone you know. It’s 1 in 4 of us, and that means it’s your friends, your sisters, your accountant, even the woman in the big house on the corner. It’s so frightfully common, yet we don’t talk about it, and we should. Shrouding abuse in shame and silence protects abusers, and it keeps people from asking for help.

“My story was embarrassing, and a lifetime later, it’s still embarrassing, but if it helps even one person get out, then I’ll happily scream it from the rooftops.”

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2020 02:12PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: ptbarnum ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 11:13AM

Yeah, actually I would openly try to dissuade you, or anyone else, from rejoining, or even joining in the first place. Of course I'd be as polite as possible about it, and focus mainly on figuring out what reasons you'd have for doing it, and try to suggest other ways of getting those needs met then by rejoining the cult.

I can't in good conscience keep silent about an organization that has done so much harm. It's rare to find an exmo who left without some trauma, so I'd have to at least remind that person that we're dealing with a manipulative and abusive, dishonest fraud racket and that they would have a long, bleak, and expensive road ahead.

In my IRL support group it comes up many times that a person will express the desire to return to an abusive or traumatic life situation. We fellow survivors gently say all we can to prevent this. We owe each other the honesty of calling out self-harming impulses, which do arise. Why would any burn victim support another burn victim in playing with matches?

And after all, if a person comes to a forum of any kind with an idea, it means they are volunteering for opening up their idea to debate and shouldn't be surprised if they hear feedback that is challenging or uncomfortable. If they were secure in their decision, they wouldn't bother floating it out to their discussion board buddies, they'd just do it.

All that said, I wouldn't cut off a friendship over a decision to go back to the cult, and after the decision was firmly made, I would keep my mouth shut as long as they respected my boundaries.

I don't know if that counts as integrity, but yeah, I feel like as a fellow traveler I do have a duty to warn.

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Posted by: Province House ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 11:20AM

Each of us has to take responsibility for our own actions. We can't keep blaming others for our actions.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 11:41AM

It is not incumbent upon me to persuade you of anything.
However I would say that rejoining would be my last option!

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 12:02PM

I believe it was you who said you wouldn't go back to the lds church even if they offered you $1 billion. I said I would. It shows a lack of integrity. I can easily say that because I KNOW they won't ever offer me $1 billion or $1 million or even $1000, so it is easy for me to say that I would go back, not believing, but I'd go through the motions as I've been POOR. Not poor enough to be homeless, but I had 2 kids to raise. Another thing when I now don't have 2 kids to raise.

I hated the farm we had as I'd worked there. I hated the house. It wasn't lived in regularly since my grandparents had passed away, but my dad stayed there when he needed to. It had rodents and bugs, and it borders the Great Salt Lake, so I mean BUGS. BUT when I thought I was losing my house and I had nowhere to go, my mother was talking one day about the house in Corinne and I realized I had somewhere to go. My parents would have taken me in, but that would have been difficult.

It all depends on the situation you find yourself in.

When I'm on my death bed, I WILL NOT decide I believe. No death bed confessions for me. Even if the mormons were right, I wouldn't change my mind on my death bed. Even if I had the chance to be in the CK with my family who have had their second anointings, no way would I want the CK. Yes, I'd fake it for $1 billion.

Now, back to the original question. No, I wouldn't try to convince you not to go back. I tried that with my daughter. It only made her more determined.

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 12:04PM

I would probably remind you of this little ditty: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

Also, caffiend's reference to the proverbs scripture. Once throw up is out of me, I'm not about to try to ingest it again.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 12:31PM

I think that many,and perhaps most board members would question your decision, ask you to think it through, or try to give you alternatives depending on your unique circumstances. But it's important to remember that on the rare occasions when people return to the Mormon church, it's often for complex reasons. Sometimes it is done to avoid be ostracized by family members, to avoid a divorce, or to enable grandparents to continue to see their grandchildren.

Life is often not black or white, but instead varying shades of gray. So IMO "integrity" is not the appropriate word choice here. When we get the occasional post about someone wanting to return to church, sometimes I've asked them to think it through, and sometimes I've said, "Okay, I hope that works out for you" depending on the post.

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Posted by: forestpal ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 02:34PM

I take Summer's position. I know many people who are afraid to leave the Mormon cult, for the reasons Summer gave: ostracism, threat of divorce, separation from grandchildren. The Mormon punishments for those who leave can be worse than the torture of stayin in an abusive cult.

This is depressing, but if your life has been tainted by Mormonism, YOU will end up being the loser. Loss of integrity would be awful, for me, but I would probably sacrifice my integrity in order to keep my loved ones in my life. Fortunately, I have not been tested that way, though I do feel a "pulling away" of my Mormon daughter and her Mormon husband and her baptized children. With most things, such as your career, or friendships, or how you spend your time, there are choices to be made, and somebody or some thing will be neglected, when your time is being spent doing something else. We try to be all things to all people, right? Integrity is choosing what YOU think is right. Integrity is about having pure, honest motives.

I like what Done & Done said about "manipulation." I have to be careful about this, too. I honestly want what's best for people, and want them to be happy, and this might be something entirely different than what I would choose, and different from what is best for me.

Leaving the cult has been a maturing thing, in that we know how awful it was to be manipulated and lied to, so we are less likely to do that to someone else.

What I can't resolve is the issue that if we pat outselves on the back for "staying out of it" and allowing a loved one the freedom of choice--someone else is going to swoop in and manipulate that person. What I mean is, we know that the Mormons are already manipulating, threatening, making false promised, recruiting, love-bombing, using family as "tools" for coertion, and all those other nasty things. In NOT warning someone, we take away their balance, and the support they might need to counteract the Mormon brainwashing.

It's tricky. Just a few days ago, I was sincere in supporting a decision my son made. He talked, and I mostly listened. (At least I'm smart enough to do that. I honestly thought it was a good decision. My son asked the advice of other people, too. When my son acted on his decision, the results created an uproar in his family, and, somehow, I became the scapegoat in taking the blame. When my son found a way to reverse and mend his bad decision, I supported him in that, also, because this decision was preventing possible harm. Now, my son and his family think the reverse decision was even worse. I am doubly to blame, now, and I feel like my son's family hates me.

The Mormonism debate is tricky, and I avoid discussing religion with Mormons. What if the Mormons who want to leave or want to stay, are people YOU influenced into baptism in the first place! Oh, it's all so complicated!

At this point, not knowing you or any details, if I could give a WARNING, it would be to stay out of it, entirely, if your sincere goal is to preserve your good relationship with the person. If your integrity tells you that you must try to save this person, well, could you REALLY battle against a whole gang of manipulators, backed by practice, training, money, family and peer pressure, and all that other arsenal of weapons the "Armies of Helaman" bring out against you?

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 06:44PM

Regarding decisions...

I made what I regarded as a major blunder at work today. Two students have nearly identical names, and I logged one student in for testing under the other student's credentials (the student managed to complete the test.) Owie!

My supervisor could have thrown a major fit, but that is not how our school operates. Our principal places a major emphasis on being kind. I told my immediate supervisor about what the next steps needed to be. He said, "no worries, mistakes happen." And he set about making things right.

The thing that I've found in my current work environment is that kindness is catching. When my colleagues treat me kindly, I in turn treat them kindly and treat my students kindly as well.

Everyone makes mistakes. To me, a good church would put an emphasis on promoting kind and forgiving behaviors. "Forgive as you wish to be forgiven." Isn't that a lot more peaceful and pro-social than the constant judgment some churches promote?

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 06:49PM

summer Wrote:
> To me, a good church
> would put an emphasis on promoting kind and
> forgiving behaviors.

Vengeful and jealous gods may be sold as all kind as well as all knowing and powerful but that don't mean their dogma is.

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Posted by: CateS ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 10:19PM

I do every assignment on paper. No goddamn chromebooks.

As a result this backwards, old woman is persona non grata as far as the pr driven, self-aggrandizing administration is concerned.

God! When is she going to retire, already!

Don’t give a shit. My classroom and I do what I damn well please.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 10:33PM

The integrity of being You!

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 12:57PM

I don't.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 02:34PM

...yeah, true story!

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 02:55PM

I have sufficient for my needs.

You can can get all the integrity in the world for money you know.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 02:58PM

Do you sell your integrity for money?

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 03:49PM

No, it is sacred....or is it secret? I forget.

Plus I'll need it so I'm not allowed past the guards at the gates of heaven.

Roy: Knock, knock, knock.

Guard: What is wanted?

Roy: having been true and faithful in all things, I seek to be granted a waiver on entering the kingdom of heaven.

Guard: Have you any tokens?

Roy: No, but I have integrity!

Guard: Waiver approved, go on git, we don't want your kind in here!

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 02:59PM

My older sister, after years of reading the real history and learning the fraud, re-joined the church and married for eternity in the temple. She told me I didn't understand her "spirituality."

So we stopped talking over her reversal on the Mormon subculture. She was divorced within two years. I have no idea whether her next husband will be Mormon or not. He will be #5.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: January 17, 2020 03:39PM

I dreamt last night that I had made up of my mind to return to the church. Most peculiar that I knew why I was there, but those were my thoughts as I walked into the chapel and sat in a pew by myself. The meeting was very noisy, not from kids/children, but from adults talking. They were even talking over the bishop and the singing of the sacrament hymn!

I hinted that my dream was funny and it was a doozy. A deacon brought me a sacrament tray of water (who knows what happened to the bread tray) and I made a mess. Somehow the plastic cup was wedged so tightly in the tray lid that I managed to lift every cup off the tray. All the plastic cups slid into the refuse area of the tray. I started laughing and the only thing I said to the deacon was "Oops". He just smiled.

A couple of other feelings stood out to me. First, nobody gave a crap that I had attended. Secondly, there was no love at church. Finally, a strong sense of loneliness returned.

I would like to thank those who said that they would try to talk me out of returning. I think that's something a good friend would do, even if you think I was about to make the wrong decision.

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Posted by: Pooped ( )
Date: January 25, 2020 03:41PM

Mentioning that you had a dream about going to church made me wonder why I've never had a dream of that nature. I often have dreams about things that bring me anxiety or great pleasure. I don't think Mormonism, after leaving, gave me either of those feelings. I think leaving just gave me incredible peace of mind.

Since I do not have a close personal relationship with you I don't know if I would make a great effort to convince you not to go back. I've fretted a lot about my old friends stuck in the Mormon quagmire but cannot get any of them to see reason. They seem so happy in their delusion so I don't want to make enemies of them. The biggest reason I want to change their minds about Mormonism is that so many of them are financially strapped. I really have a problem watching them give so much of their honestly and hard earned money to such a dishonest and wealthy (corrupt) organization.

I'd probably ask you if you were financially well off and warn you that if you were not you might want to rethink your decision for financial reasons.

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: January 18, 2020 01:15PM

Hey, I'm freakin' overflowing with the stuff.

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Posted by: idleswell ( )
Date: January 20, 2020 02:30PM

My advice to anyone is to "work out your own salvation" as counselled in Phillipians 2. This applies to all in the Church, out of the Church or in another Church. Salvation is a puzzle for each of us to reason and find peace with.

We had a family that lived ~40 miles away from our ward chapel. The Stake wanted them to attend another ward ~60 miles in the opposite direction. They felt closer ties to our ward when they came into the city about once a month.

My private advice to the husband was to make the best decision for their family. I would give the same advice to anyone if they are considering attending or leaving the Church. Each person must make our own decisions. Who am I to judge if someone's circumstances are easy or hard?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2020 08:26AM by idleswell.

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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: January 20, 2020 03:07PM

No I never interfere with outher people's decisions... They can

be stupid on their own, I stay out of it.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2020 08:46PM by saucie.

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Posted by: kathleen ( )
Date: January 20, 2020 03:13PM

I'd say: Hey, you're my friend no matter what.

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: January 20, 2020 05:59PM

I think a christian church has a lot to offer that can not be found elsewhere. There is a community of people trying to be better. Sometimes more good can be done within an organization. Everyone's life's path is different.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 20, 2020 06:48PM

macaRomney Wrote:
> I think a christian church has a lot to offer that
> can not be found elsewhere.

This is because being secular and atheist doesn't appeal like religion does. IF we lived in a less superstitious culture...

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Posted by: Warrior71783 ( )
Date: January 20, 2020 11:18PM

I would try to persuade you to not be a mental slave but sometimes it is all you know and all you can be. Cult brainwashing is no joke. Only 20 percent of people make it out of a cult and live a normal life. So it is not easy and not for the weak. Only the strong make it succesfully or the very intellectual. So its not easy. I consider myself one of the strongest and i struggle daily. Being in the religion is worse than death for me so i can't go back. I've known it was false since i was young and now everyone knows i knew it was false the whole time. My living destroys their fantasy.

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Posted by: Warrior71783 ( )
Date: January 20, 2020 11:42PM

Edit: only 20 percent that actually attempt to get out of a cult succeed to a normal life and a get a normal functioning brain again if the cult ever allowed them to get a normal functioning brain that can make life choices on its own. I don't even know how to cook and i am 36. I didn't learn shit in a cult about real living. I learned slavery. Definitely learned that one. Submission, slavery while being told i'm special. ✔ got it.

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Posted by: Warrior71783 ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 12:04AM

The cult doesn't teach you any real life skills on purpose. They want you totally dependant. They brainwashed you to fail in the real world by design. Absolutely. I've even doubted myself these past few days because i face banktrupcy. But this is the most independent minded i have ever been in my entire life. My family expects me to fail. If i fail than their fake fantasy wins and they can all watch disney movies in their fantasyland. If i give up then the cult beat me. You think i want those old bastards to beat me in the end or my blood family. Hell no. i wasn't born to be brainwashed constantly like an idiot. I'm done with that repititious nonsense and forced torture. I might as well jump off the golden gate bridge instead. It would quicker and less painful. I can beat a mind controlled person in any face to face confrontation. I know i can now. They only had the advantage over me back in the day because i was a minor and i had to tolerate their bs. Yea sure jesus is part of a handshake gang like the crips mmhmm. Yeeea i'm tired of pretending i am as dumb as they are. Death oaths? Yep totally normal adult behavior mmhmm. Chanting? Yep totally normal mmhmm.

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Posted by: kathleen ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 02:38AM

Warrior71783 Wrote:
> don't even know how to cook and i am 36.

Neither do I.

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Posted by: stillangry ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 12:46AM

messygoop Wrote:
Do any of you have integrity?

I have asked this question multiple times here. Each time, a small group of members get bent out of shape and my post is deleted because their "feelings" were hurt. So why does yours get to stay up?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 24, 2020 12:18PM

I guess I’ve never seen your posts before they were deleted.

Do you have any idea who the members of the small group are? Not that it would do much good, what with this being merely a human endeavor.

But I have seen a basically innocuous post get pulled and I suspected a game was afoot, the human game.

It’s likely that no matter who had power here, charges of imperfection would arise.

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Posted by: stillangry ( )
Date: January 23, 2020 10:19PM


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Posted by: cheezus ( )
Date: January 24, 2020 07:35AM

Have you any money? You can buy lots of integrity in this world with ... money.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 25, 2020 03:15PM

Do MORmONs have any integrity, when they oppose gay marriage based upon their "family values" while they sing praises of a man who cuckolded his followers but screwing their wives and teenage daughters?

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