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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 20, 2020 01:57PM

Utah made one of the leaps forward for women, but...

"1896
Utah: "The rights of citizens of the State of Utah to vote and hold office shall not be denied or abridged on account of sex. Both male and female citizens of this State shall enjoy all civil, political and religious rights and privileges." - Utah Constitution, Article IV, §1 (1896)."

...still even today is one of the worst places for women. The quote below shows an attitude I'm sure still exists there in force today - that women mature faster than men enmasse.

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-and-worst-states-for-women/10728/

"1975
Stanton v. Stanton, was a 421 U.S. 7 (1975) United States Supreme Court case which struck down Utah's definitions of adulthood as a violation of equal protection: females reached adulthood at 18; males at 21.[98]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_women%27s_legal_rights_in_the_United_States_(other_than_voting)

And it is the marriage shadow that still creeps long over their purple mountain majesty.

"Utah divorce court ruled against the mother, and the Utah Supreme Court held that there was a "reasonable basis" for the differential: women matured earlier and married younger; men had a greater need for education.[1]:218 The Utah court stated in its opinion that the basis for the law, though an "old notion," was not unconstitutional.[1]:218"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanton_v._Stanton

The traditional "roles based" segregation of women still exerts a strong force on women today.

"And yet, despite the rise of contract as a basis for nonmarital forms of domestic ordering, both marriage and marriage's shadow have proven resilient. Despite rumors of marriage's untimely demise as the dominant form of domestic ordering-witness, anxious commentators note, soaring divorce rates and the prevalence of "blended families"-our contemporary social landscape of intimate relations is remarkably similar to the comparable social terrain at the turn of the last century."
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3406/7ad18982f73246bc8d645daa5e8611ba962f.pdf

We need a constitutional amendment to dig the grave for traditional marriage and even with it it will not keep the zombies of role worship from attempting to rise from it again and again.

Their argument stays the same - separate (different) but equal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2020 12:14PM by Elder Berry.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 03:20PM

I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make. Women were considered adults at a younger age than males. OK. That is no longer the case, though your material does not clearly point that out.

The semantic scholar quote is particularly puzzling, though I guess it is a screed against marriage.

And finally, your conclusion: "We need a constitutional amendment to dig the grave for traditional marriage[,] and even with it[,] it will not keep the zombies of role worship from attempting to rise from it again and again."

Are you saying we need a new constitutional amendment to bury traditional marriage? I'm curious as to what such an amendment would say.

Or are you saying that the ERA would bury traditional marriage? If so, I strongly disagree either that it will do that, or that we need traditional marriage buried. Attitudes need to be tweaked, perhaps quite a lot for some people, but the institution, both formal and informal pair-bonding, is not going anywhere.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 04:13PM

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Or are you saying that the ERA would bury
> traditional marriage? If so, I strongly disagree
> either that it will do that, or that we need
> traditional marriage buried. Attitudes need to be
> tweaked, perhaps quite a lot for some people, but
> the institution, both formal and informal
> pair-bonding, is not going anywhere.

I think ERA is another nail in the coffin of governmental marriage contracts real or perceived. Pair bonding is entirely different in my opinion.

Informal pair bonding seems much more like what humans as a creature do.

ERA might not bury traditional marriage but I hope it will signal dying breaths of something that has been used to corral people together from humans starting into agrarian lives.

"The semantic scholar quote is particularly puzzling, though I guess it is a screed against marriage."

It isn't a screed against marriage but does point out how traditional marriage has been used to attempt to provide for women in need. It is a good read.

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Posted by: kathleen ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 03:24PM

No.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 03:41PM

 

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 03:53PM

everyone should have boobs, preferably a matched pair;

I'm sorry to see women (& some men) have breast cancer (or any disease).

Although I appreciate female breasts, boobies, ma-mas, jugs, who-has, 'the girls', fun bags, etc. ad infinitum, More than man breasts, I'll keep Mine, where they are, just as long as I can, thank you very much.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 03:57PM

The OP asks, "Anyone here think an 18 year old girl more mature than an 18 year old boy?"

And I answered that those who think this are 'boobs'...

I'm shocked that you took my response the way you did!!!!


Shocked, I tell you!

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 04:16PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The OP asks, "Anyone here think an 18 year old
> girl more mature than an 18 year old boy?"
>
> And I answered that those who think this are
> 'boobs'...

Mormon "fun bags" actually.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 05:07PM

I tell my wife her boobs are nice and cute. Then I point to one and say "this ones the nice one" and then point to the other and say "and this ones the cute one."

She always chuckles :)

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 02:54PM

Pics or it didn't happen.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 03:09PM

Nips when it does happen.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 03:22PM

Tips when it happens at Hooters. They cater to an immature clientele.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 03:46PM

I hear the food is good though.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 04:40PM

I think I read that in some articles. I didn't look at the pictures though.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 05:18PM

Yeah, yeah.

And you didn't inhale, either.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 06:00PM

Yes, I was waiting for God, our Eternal Father to inspire vape.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 04:17PM

Thanks. This was interesting.

"‘An 18 year old boy is basically a 13 year old girl, in terms of maturity!’ people would say."

Read more:

https://metro.co.uk/2018/01/29/stop-using-excuse-boys-mature-slower-girls-bad-behaviour-7270774/

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 10:42AM

I wonder if by this Mormon logic Helen Mar Kimball would have been considered mature for her age? Her mental age would have been an 19 year girl in a 14 year body.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 03:51PM

Some of us (me) will never mature.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 04:58PM

Good, youth is often wasted on the young. ;) At least you aren't young so it isn't wasted.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 02:53PM

He may not be young.....but he may be wasted by 3:00 pm everyday :0

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 04:01PM

the wallet hub site has a chart showing the best and worst states for women ranked according to "womens health and safety rank." which puts Utah at 21. Which is way to low I would want to see that number to be closer to 49. Because being a safe brainwashed constituent isn't what freedom, entrepreneurship, and happiness is all about (limited government).

I guess they've ranked this according to availability to contraception, generous government benefits availability, white majorities, absence of minorities and ghettos, because they've put Massachusetts, Minnesota and Connecticut rank at the top.

But as for the question do 18 year old girls mature faster? Yes!

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 05:01PM

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Because being a
> safe brainwashed constituent isn't what freedom,
> entrepreneurship, and happiness is all about
> (limited government).

So a dangerous society where women are constantly in fear of assaults and constantly judged inferior or "more mature" by said society is much better for entrepreneurship and happiness?

You might look into moving to India or one of several places where "boys will be boys" and freedom in a limited somewhat more locally corrupt government is all the rave for entrepreneurship and happiness.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 04:02PM

It really depends on what you mean by mature. If you mean sexually mature (which is a really weird but apparently normal mormon way of looking at it), but if you are referring to what we call maturity in broader terms, my own experience of being 18 years old and then having 3 children (1 boy, 2 girls) who were 18 years old (at different times ;-) would tend to push me towards that conclusion. Girls were consistently more mature in thought and (to my shy eyes) social ease and mastery. Both of my daughters were more intellectually mature at 18 than my son. It has evened out since then.

But it does all hang on what you put behind the word "maturity". If it's just a code word for child marriage (i.e. child rape, if we're honest), as I fear, then it's certainly wrong - and a rather chilling use of language...). I also think that relationships (marriages) with predefined roles are probably very harmful to all involved (and particularly the women involved). It makes living with and loving someone much harder because nobody is his/her "real" self. It makes me shudder.

Tom in Paris

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 21, 2020 05:03PM

I have 3 daughters. Their maturity is no better or worse than young men I've known their ages. Actually, the young Mormon men I've known through my association with my kids have shown high degrees of having their lives together. I was so much more immature than them at their age.

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Posted by: ragnar ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 04:45AM

I had forgotten about this.

We lived in SLC in the 1960s. My older brother got married. He was 19, she was 18. If I remember correctly, my brother needed parental permission to get married, and his bride did not.

I remember thinking that was quite odd...

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 10:39AM

ragnar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I remember thinking that was quite odd...

Interesting. You didn't put that on a shelf?

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Posted by: ragnar ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 02:23PM

I was 14 when my brother got married. I was aware of the age differential of the law, but didn't understand why.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 03:02PM

Thanks. I think it depends upon how you were raised. I was raised by a woman who lifted herself out of abject poverty through a BYU degree.

I watched all of my sisters get married before getting a degree. It upset my mother that none of her daughters got a degree before marriage. My eldest sister married in her freshman year at Ricks at age 18. It was a blow to my mother.

And this is in the heart of Mormonland. It probably didn't help that she is narcissistic and my sisters saw marriage as a way to escape her.

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 04:56PM

I was 18 and a freshman at Ricks and in no way, shape or form was I mature enough to be thrust into that environment of Mormon 24/7 and guys worried about being worthy....I was a mass of hormones and all I wanted to do was look at girls..mall of whom thought I was unworthy of ANYTHING!)

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 22, 2020 06:01PM

I bet they thought your were worthy of a second look if not a second anointing.

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