When I was a little Mormon boy, My Sunday school teachers taught me that dinosaurs never existed on the Earth. They said dinosaurs came from another world that God used when he created ours from spare world parts. I imagined God putting different colors of Play-Doh together and mashing them into a ball.

At school I was taught that dinosaurs did live on the Earth millions of years ago. That's why we have oil, because living things from that era were crushed under great pressure underground. I asked my father, who was a school teacher, about the whole thing. "Remember," he told me, "the Lord knows more than men." I understood he was endorsing the Mormon theory of a young, manufactured Earth.

You see, the year I turned twelve, I found his position to be untenable. In addition to denying the science of geology, he also denied the science of evolutionary biology. This was too much for me and I balked. He cut me off and eventually disowned me for following the devil. This is how I see Mormonism through my eyes.

The Devil Put Dinosaurs Here

Nope.

Truer story.

https://imgur.com/gallery/xB1at

Heh.

Sadly, I can't find Eddie Izzard doing Jesus and the Dinosaurs from Dressed to Kill. I guess YouTube pulled it.

Both stories are clearly true, Elder Berry. They certazinly deserve to be :-D

Beth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Devil Put [moremans] Here

I almost stepped into a footprint...
But it was my own. Too feat! Deep.

I learned NOTHING new (true) in Mormonism.
ALL truth I've learned on earth is outside of Mormonism.

I new Mormonism wasn't old. Nor even bold, I'm told. It's cold. NOT warm. Not inviting. Not interesting. Not even TRUE. Or comforting. Or even BELIEVABLE...

Mormonism is EXtinct

Many times I was told "The Church is perfect but the members aren't". Why does such a perfect organization seem to excel in producing absolute jerks like Don Bagley's dad?

A point of contention between my dad and me as well.

Mormons say contention is of the devil. If contention is of the devil, why does mormonism and its doctrine cause so much contention?

So they can win the argument, of course!

They assert an extreme position; you complain that it is ridiculous; and voila, you are guilty of creating contention and need to back down.

If you don't concede, you are as evil as a medieval duck!

Quack quack....medievally speaking of course ;)

Hear ye, hear ye. Roy doth quack like unto a duck.

Burn him!!!

Just dunk me in the river, I promise I'll sink.

Roy G Biv, having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

I hope, Elder Berry, that you wore your big suit when you took Roy to the river.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anjT71N4PGM

All of mine are big. I lost a lot of weight a few years ago.

You are still, and will always be, larger than life.

Your dad of course was an imbecile.

Mormon god would have had to carefully deposit each layer of fossils across the planet so as to make modern radiometric dating techniques give us false but consistent time lines.

Also, if this planet had been created from other world scraps, the heat generated in bringing them together would have melted any rock and associated bones. No fossils at all in that case.

Finally, that same god deliberately removed all Nephite and Jaredite artifacts from the Americas. It's magic!

That Elohim, what a trickster. Planting false evidence and taking away real evidence. Mormons worship a deceitful god. They might as well worship Loki.

Come to think of it, your dad was a dinosaur himself. Good thing he too went extinct.

Exactly. Your last sentence there goes right to the point.

Dinosaurs are on the wall mural paintings in Manti and Salt Lake Temples, in the World room. Were in other murals of older Temples before they were remodeled to look like Holiday Inn rooms.

The thought I had when fed that line (spare parts from other planets) was why were there dinosaurs on another planet? Do gods get spare planets to play with??

We didn't know that the Mormons were simply moving the goalpost. They told us to trust them.

Hey, do you know how expensive it is to make a planet from scratch with all new parts? It's just prudent to go to some planet salvage yards and pick up some used parts.

But isn't that matter already organized albeit in junk form?

You have a point there. The temple film (at least the version I remember) begins with Elohim saying "Jehovah, Mike. There's some unorganized matter over there-go make a world out of it." If there were parts that already had complete fossilized dinosaur remains, that's hardly "unorganized."

The next revision of the temple film should have Elohim say "Jehovah, Mike. There are some parts over there. Yeah, some of the parts are used, but parts are parts. Go make a world."

Yeah, what one used to read "dinosaur" matter unorganized will become giant clouds of dead stars when Mormonism embraces evolution theory.

On last night's episode of Gold Rush, one of the miners was digging and removing pay dirt, and pulled up a big surprise: A huge Mammoth tusk.

I guess that not only were dinosaur parts brought from other planets, but so were the Wooly Mammoths. Their bodies must have contained a lot of gold, so HF put them on this planet so we could have jewelry and all that good stuff.

Don, thank you for sharing your experiences. When I read this, I was put in mind of one of your recent comments on the situation of your sister's money, house and business that came about simply based upon her willingness to adhere to cult membership and thus obtain the paternal seal of approval. As if the Mormon Club Card was some sort of visible guarantee that his kids were behaving and thinking as he would have them do, and were thus deserving of support and affection.

Yet beneath the surface, the business was poorly run in multiple aspects and now the house must be sold as the FDA's displeasure is felt. Essentially, things in your sister's household never really were what your father thought they were. There were deep flaws beneath the veneer, if I remember and am interpreting the details correctly, yes? So, essentially, your sister was violating the "clean and honest" philosophy that is supposed to be such a big part of Mo'ism, especially when it comes to family relationships, so she was never truly submissive to his control via religion.

This culture of superficial honesty spackled atop self-serving deception is so common in Mormon families and very few people raised in the cult think there's anything wrong with promising, promoting or enforcing a behavioral expectation on others while doing something entirely different themselves.

You told your father the truth about what you thought and felt and refused to lie/deny your conclusions even in the face of severe consequences. According to the sanitized public image of Mo'ist "values" they're constantly encouraging outsiders to swallow and their members to parrot, you should've been encouraged, respected and rewarded for your willingness to stand by your convictions. Instead you were banished and scapegoated.

High school was a while ago for me now, but I believe that's how my dear etymologically obsessed English teacher defined "hypocrisy".

My father was a terrible parent and a raging hypocrite too. I have wrestled for years with the question of whether people like our fathers have had any insight into the fundamental dishonesty at work in their daily lives. Was this behavior conscious and deliberate, or did they, to some degree, "drink their own/the cult's kool-aid". Did they see, or even intuit on any level, the glaring disparity between the version of reality they subjected us to versus actual reality? Do you think Father Bagley ever questioned whether your sister ever veered from the straight-and-narrow, or was he supremely confident that he had her sufficiently cowed and boxed in? Did he never question something so ridiculous and extreme as disowning you and believing you to be irredeemably wicked simply because of differing views on dinosaurs and evolution? Or is delusional thinking so powerful that it overrides basic biological nurturing instincts?

I ask myself again and again, what kind of parent can abuse and discard their children in such ways? I don't understand, and there is something relentless inside me that *needs* to understand.

Thanks for writing and sharing, ptbarnum. I think the answer to the question why is narcissism. My father suffered from the madness that denies itself. People around him had serious problems of his making. He blamed us.

The evil of Mormonism is in the way it supported and justified him. He was so bad that he had to move every couple of years, because locals grew to hate him once they got to know him. We were actually driven out of a couple of towns with him under threat. His take on it was that the devil got people to oppose him. My father was like Joseph Smith in that respect. Joe Smith was a narcissist himself, and a terrible man, also run out of town.

Altogether, it was very hard luck for me to be the son of that Mormon man.

"The madness that denies itself". That's the essence of it and it's so mind boggling that a person can leave such a trail of destruction with no insight.

Yes, it must come down to narcissism, which is why I will likely never truly understand it all, not in the comprehensive way I'd like to. I am just not the same sort of animal.

Very hard luck indeed to be a child of such a person,

Have you ever read the book "The Glass Castle"? Your stories of your youth and your father, especially how much you moved around, remind me so much of the father in that book.

But loved your comment, "the madness that denies itself." I do now think I have a right to claim a more narcissistic father than even your own. Mine was even narcissistic FROM THE GRAVE!. He and my mom had funeral/burial packages they'd bought years before, which included burial in a really beautiful national cemetery in Southern California, about an hour from where they'd lived for 57 years. Before he died, he decided that he wanted to be buried in the Utah state veterans cemetery. Which meant having to transport the coffin 600 miles after the funeral.

Why did he want to be buried in Utah? Wasn't because he had any ties to there. He did his last few college years at BYU and taught in Orem for 2 years. But that was in the 50s. No, the reason he wanted to be buried there was because more of his kids and grandkids lived closer to Utah and he figured that way more people would come worship at his grave. He just still needed think no one could live without him.

Only problem, it meant that his wife of 65 years would never be able to go visit his grave after the burial. Although she was his next of kin and should have stood up for herself and said, "no, he's going to be buried where I can visit him and where we'd always planned," she had never stood up to him and didn't know how to start at the age of 90. She'd told him she'd do what he wanted and she didn't want him mad at her even though he was freakin DEAD. He never gave a shit about her and wasn't about to start when he was 90 and dying. He just wanted to be where the most people would come to see his plot. NOT where the person who really needed to could come. Last summer when I was visiting my mother and she was crying and said "Oh, I wish we could go visit Dad's grave. I don't know why he did that to me," I just wanted to scream, "Because he was the world's biggest narcissistic asshole and he didn't give a shit about how it would affect you!" But I didn't. No point it upsetting her any more than it already does. I offered to take a trip and drive her to Utah, but her arthritis is so bad that she knew that trip would be a killer.

Does Mormonism attract narcissists/sociopaths or create them? I've wondered that so many times.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2020 11:20AM by NormaRae.

I have read that book, and I saw the parallels.

I thought homosexuality killed the dinosaurs...

I think you are confusing Mormonism leaders with the real things.

God works in mysterious ways. Someday when you die you will know the truth. No one can verify it, but that is the promise of the religion business model. People pay you for a promise of an after life you can't verify. It's a huge risk with 100% uncertainty.

Trickle down religion without any trickle.

Doubt your doubt and Trust the Brethern.

Don said: "When I was a little Mormon boy..."

That phrase touches my heart.


Don: "Altogether, it was very hard luck for me to be the son of that Mormon man."


Between these two lines lies the story of your life, Don. I would buy the book. Your writing is poignant and your insights valuable.


I don't have much reason to hate Mormons, not the rank and file members. I especially have a soft spot for exmo BICs. I have learned a lot about their situations and challenges from years of reading RfM. Having spent most of my convert-time with the missionaries (as I found the members uniquely unfriendly - at least towards me), I saw how Mormonism consumed at least the first two decades of their life, giving them little to no outside exposure or experience.

Time is precious. Too bad to use up at least 25% of one's lifetime merely due to an accident of birth. And perhaps the remaining 75% getting over it.

Of course, we all have accidents of birth - the lottery of who our parents are, which in many ways can shape our entire lives.

I have grieved the deaths of both my parents now. My dad passed away quickly and unexpectedly over 15 years ago. Some days it still feels like last week. As my best friend said, my deep grief is a tribute to my good relationships with each of my parents. I appreciate my good fortune in that way. My dad was strict when we were young but even then I realized he was trying to keep us safe and hoping we would grow up right. We were close and I still remember the times this man, who worked long, hard hours, would spend time with his kids, teaching us science stuff, like how a magnifying glass intensified the sun's heat, how sound travels over a telephone and the beauty and engineering feat of a spider's web hanging between two bushes, sparkling with dew drops. When he mentioned 'celestial' to us he wasn't referring to a putative Mormon kingdom or a big, empty, chandelier-festooned room in a so-called holy temple but rather wonders in the sky - comets, eclipses, sunsets and lightning. He praised astronomers of old, inventors, mathematicians and space travellers. Our inside 'wonders' included Dickens, Walter Scott, Shakespeare, Bronte, Austen, Doyle, Chaucer (yes, he had a soft spot for the UK). He didn't burden us with religion or anti-religion but rather taught us to try and think of all sides of a question. I enjoyed walks through the woods with him, and along the beach, as well as chats by the fireside in a favourite pub, pint in hand.

He'd be the first one to say he wasn't perfect. And he'd be right. But he embraced lifetime learning, a good example for us all. He was happy to spend time with his grandchildren at the library or on the soccer pitch.

I will always regret not getting a chance to say good-bye to him the way I would have wanted to. (Not enough time). A decade-and-a-half later I still long to be going "down the pub" for a pint with Dad. We still had plenty to talk about.

I wish every kid could enjoy a happy childhood with loving, involved parents, going on to a meaningful adult relationship with each other.

I'm sad to think someone could be happy their parent was dead. What a tragedy. For the parent as well as the child.

Thank you, Don, for sharing with us. It's meaningful. Sad to think of that little Mormon boy, as well as all the other current day little boys and girls who have it all in front of them to go through. I hope the majority find happiness, whether in or out of the church. I hope they at least come to realize they have that choice.

There is a book of my life from age 14 to 24. It's called "Orphans of Babylon," and it's on kindle (ebook). Thank you for your kind comments.

I commented on these two lines you wrote, don:

"When I was a little Mormon boy..."

"Altogether, it was very hard luck for me to be the son of that Mormon man."


I replied:

"Between these two lines lies the story of your life, Don."


I was wrong! Between those lines is the story of the influence of Mormonism in your life, particularly as it relates to how your father was.

Of course, that does not define your entire life. You get to do that. You decided how to deal with your family of origin, in particular your father, and with the religion you were born into by choosing to leave both behind as you spread your wings.

The story of your life is not confined within the Mormon parameters but rather, is multi-faceted and directed by you, your choices, your fertile mind, your loving heart, your contributions, successes and achievements, and by your meaningful relationships.

Your father lost out, big time. Anybody would be proud to have a son like you, talented, master of his own mind, courageous enough to make his own (tough) choices.

I'm sorry that for a moment I squelched you down just into the Mormon part. That was an accident of birth. The rest of your story is fashioned by your own integrity, creativity, and sheer bloody-mindedness (the latter is a compliment!) that resulted in you forging your own path despite powerful obstacles.

I'm so glad you got out. It's a rough road for all too many people. We are the beneficiaries of your efforts. As is your chosen family I'm sure.

Too bad for your birth father. He is the loser in oh so many ways.

As it is said, we can be the author/designer of our own destiny. Fortunately, you, don, are a great writer!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2020 03:24PM by Nightingale.

My dad told me the exact same thing.

He (my dad) was into reading those crazy Cleon Skousen books at the time. I think that might be where he picked up the idea.

The dino bones just happened to be in the playdoh-matter God wadded up to form Earth. That scores a 10 in mental gymnastics with extra points for ignorance and creativity.

Does ChurchCo have a line in the sand / official position on age-of-earth, dinosaurs, etc. My senior in high school son just started a semester long paleontology class taught by a TBM. As class progresses, I'll quiz my son to see how she spins it.

"Officially" (for plausible deniability's sake and to save themselves future embarrassment) they no longer take a position. But also "officially," they declare Adam & Eve to be real people and Noah's flood to be a genuine historical event.

D&C 77 talks about a 7000 y/o earth.

Unofficially (the church as it actually is), it's young-earth. Dinos are from another planet. No GA gives talks supporting evolution, and any attempted discussion within church is shut right down.

But (so I'm told) BYU science classes teach straight-up evolution. The university has to maintain its accreditation, and teaching a literal Garden of Eden in a paleontology class would be highly problematic.

School and religion always conflicted. Probably why my brain is conflicted. I was in a cult and in public school(the more sane world) all at the same time. Both had very different and conflicting ideas about EVERYTHING.