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Posted by: iceman9090 ( )
Date: March 10, 2020 11:48PM

Hello.
I have a very simple question. It is in the title.
I downloaded the book of mormon as a PDF from the lds website. I am scanning the text. It talks about Jesus at some point but I got tired. It is as if Jesus is not yet born in the Americas.
It mentions Jesus multiple times per page and it just gets repetitive.
On which page is Jesus born?
Who is his mother?
Does he say anything?
How does he die?
Or does he come to America as a ghost and how long does he stay?
Does he speak a few lines?

MOST importantly. Which page?
I'll send you the PDF if you want.

About myself:
I am an atheist. A former christian.
I don't know much about mormonism other than watching a couple of documentaries on youtube about the various problems with mormonism, fraud, gun shot, kinder hook plates, egyptian funeral paper mistranslated into a book of Abraham, black skin.

I want to take a deeper look into all this.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 12:43AM

The birth of Jesus is noted in 3 Nephi chapter 1

His death and the subsequent destruction of the new world can be found in 3 Nephi chapters 8-10.

The appearance of Jesus in America starts in 3 Nephi chapter 11.

Other mentions can be found by looking up Christ in the index

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Posted by: outta the cult ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 01:51AM

Mary is named in Mosiah 3:8 and Alma 7:10. Amazing propheting by these two seers and revelators, no? Remarkable how they could see the future so clearly up to about 1830; any time after that, not so much.

Mormon Jesus does indeed make a grand appearance. After forgiving the people in Palestine who had done the actual crucifying (so it says), he inexplicably rained down fire and blood on those in the Americas who had absolutely nothing to do with it and were minding their own business. (3 Nephi 8)

Then he floats down as a resurrected zombie and immediately brags about the s***-ton of people he's just incinerated and buried alive. (3 Nephi 9)

Then he just repeats the Sermon on the Mount practically verbatim from Matthew. He uses the KJV and for some reason does not include the corrections later made to Matthew by Joseph Smith.

(For example, in the Lord's Prayer, Matthew 6:13 and 3 Nephi 13:12 are the identical "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." But Smith's later Bible revision changed Matthew to "And suffer us not to be led into temptation…" You might ask, why doesn't the "inspired" BOM include this "inspired" change also? Good question!)

LOL, no one here needs a PDF of the BOM. We're pretty well versed in it already.

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Posted by: nli ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 03:24PM

outta the cult Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>...
> (For example, in the Lord's Prayer, Matthew 6:13
> and 3 Nephi 13:12 are the identical...

But the two versions are not quite the same:

The BOM version omits two verses:
"...thy kingdom come..." and "Give us this day our daily bread..."

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Posted by: outta the cult ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 04:46PM

You are correct. The BOM differs from Matthew there.

But the JST did *not* omit those phrases, so once again the JST and BOM differ. I think we can agree that's another argument against Smith as a prophet/translator.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 20, 2020 12:41AM

>>After forgiving the people in Palestine who had done the actual crucifying (so it says), he inexplicably rained down fire and blood on those in the Americas who had absolutely nothing to do with it and were minding their own business. (3 Nephi 8)

God must have been pissed off at the dinosaurs as well, since he threw an enormous space rock at them and wiped them out. What I want to know is, what the heck did the dinosaurs ever do to deserve that?

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 03:56PM

Jesus big show stopping number is in the middle.

I know someone named Lilly who put it this way after a discussion with the Elders:

"So, in the middle of this saga, the Book of Mormon, after six hundred years had passed since Father Lehi had taken everyone on a cruise and ended up with his own continent, Jesus was crucified back home in Jerusalem. and because of that, God made all hell break loose all over the whole world. Over here in “Lehi-ville,” there was massive destruction everywhere to mark Jesus’s death.

Instead of a nice wake, God apparently decided on earthquakes and volcanoes, new mountains being heaved up, and all manner of major catastrophes. There were three days and nights of darkness—so thick was the darkness that you couldn’t even see the hand in front of your face, and every time anyone tried to light a fire, it went back out. Everyone was quivering, injured, and wailing. Then, voila!—the light suddenly came back on in the city of Zarahemla, and a voice from heaven keeps coming from the sky
mumbling something, and finally they figure out it is God saying, “This is my beloved son.”


Apparently, Jesus has looked into the future and caught a performance of Jesus Christ Superstar and now really likes to make a grand entrance, so I guess the purpose of all the death and destruction was just to up the drama quotient.

So after God did his best impression of Ed McMahon and turned on the lights and announced him, “Heeeeeere’s Jesus,” said Jesus descended from the sky in a pillar of light and did his whole routine from Jerusalem all over again—sans crucifixion. You know, the razzle-dazzle Sermon on the Mount, choosing twelve apostles, casting devils into swine, and all that stuff. Probably threw a little walking on the water in, too—perhaps on Lake Michigan or Titicaca. The elders weren’t sure where it all took place. but the important thing to know is that Jesus was basically taking his show on the road, so to speak.

The missionaries claim that after Jesus left there, he then visited everywhere around the world—the east, the west, the north, the south—kind of like a farewell tour, and then, unlike Cher’s farewell tour, he left for good—after giving everyone a chance to ‘accept’ him. But I mean really! Who’s not going to accept some dead guy descending from the heavens in a pillar of light? You tend to give those types credence when that happens. Know what I mean?"

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: November 19, 2020 11:28PM

“Suffer the little children to come unto Me because I just killed their parents.”

But don’t worry, Psycho Jesus is completely made up. The author of the Book of Mormon copied the text directly from the 1787 edition of the KJV Bible including errors that are unique to that edition.

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Posted by: kathleen ( )
Date: March 12, 2020 01:26PM

Thanks, D&D. Another post I need to save.

You (and Lilly) laid that out impeccably. Three "days and nights" of total darkness ... Geesh, if it was total darkness, how did they know it lasted three (yes 3) *days* and *nights*. Probably by their Apple watches. Laughable, all.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 12, 2020 01:29PM

Haha. No dear. Have you already forgotten the magical Liahona? Had to be that.

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Posted by: kathleen ( )
Date: March 13, 2020 02:29PM

Liahona ... uh, speaking of which, who's got it now ?

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Posted by: iceman9090 ( )
Date: November 19, 2020 04:18PM

kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

“Geesh, if it was total darkness, how did they know it lasted three (yes 3) *days* and *nights*. Probably by their Apple watches. Laughable, all.”

==When a theist has problems giving a naturalistic answer to something, he switches gears. He switches to "it was magic done by the gods".
For example, in the old days, rain and lightning and thunder was done by the gods. These days, not many theists go for that explanation. They tend to go with science.

In science, the rules are different. Either you know or you don’t know. If you don’t know, then you can give an educated guess using naturalistic explanations. If you have no idea, then either you don’t have enough information or don’t have the means of getting the information.
In science, BS is not allowed.

~~~~iceman9090



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2020 09:00PM by iceman9090.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 19, 2020 05:37PM

Switching gears to Heavenly Father's magic. Yup.

And that is why we also have in the Bible a thousand year old man, Methuselah, and Sara giving birth to Isaac at a spry 90 years old and nursing him. Never mind Jonah using a whale for his vacation home. These probably just started as acts at the Jerusalem Laugh Factory and then some humorless goody goody took it all seriously, skipping the science along with the punch lines.

Apparently though there was nothing funny about Jesus Christ Superstar in Zarahemla.

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Posted by: iceman9090 ( )
Date: November 19, 2020 10:12PM

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

“These probably just started as acts at the Jerusalem Laugh Factory”

==Maybe you were just joking about that but it is in fact possible that some of these stories were told as entertainment. Whatever humans make, it falls into 2 categories.
1. Entertainment
2. Serious business

I’ll give examples.
I place music, paintings, action movies, stand up comedian jokes in the entertainment category.
The equipment that goes along with it, such as your VHS player, DVD player, color TV, SEGA Genesis, Nintendo Wii, microphone also goes into the ENTERTAINMENT category.

Your wrist watch, your cars, defibrillator, hospitals, roads, stop signs, space shuttles goes into the SERIOUS BUSINESS category.
Humans need to keep time so that they go to their work place on time, therefore, a wrist watch is not there for entertainment.
Some watches cross the barrier and reach into the ENTERTAINMENT category. For example, the Mickey Mouse watch or a gold Rolex watch with diamonds.

It is possible that what was told as entertaining stories around campfires by bored people, eventually was taken seriously by priests and modified and inserted into their dogma.

A similar thing has happened when Christopher Columbus discovered America. People were curious as to who the native americans were in the 16 th century. Some proposed that they were a lost tribe of Israel. This proposal floated around for the next few centuries.
It should be noted that I think that José de Acosta was the first to propose a rational reason for the existence of native americans in the 16 th century (I think he published his book in 1590) but not many payed attention to his book. (He proposed that the old world and new world must be connected somewhere, possibly in the west side of the New World and the East side of the Old World. 140 y later, Russian explorers found the Berrng strait.).

It looks like Joseph Smith took the idea of natives being a lost Israel tribe seriously and inserted it into his book.
The believers in the BOM certainly take it seriously.

It looks like it is in the 20 th century that modern science resolved the issue of “Who are the natives?” for good.
Nobody considers the idea of “native americans are jews” anymore except for mormon apologists.

Back to Entertainment vs serious business:
So, I hear that god designed humans. Was it for Entertainment vs serious business or both?

The book of José de Acosta:

https://www.amazon.com/Natural-History-Indies-Chronicles-Encounter/dp/0822328321
Price 33.95$
“The Natural and Moral History of the Indies, the classic work of New World history originally published by José de Acosta in 1590, is now available in the first new English translation to appear in several hundred years. A Spanish Jesuit, Acosta produced this account by drawing on his own observations as a missionary in Peru and Mexico, as well as from the writings of other missionaries, naturalists, and soldiers who explored the region during the sixteenth century. One of the first comprehensive investigations of the New World, Acosta’s study is strikingly broad in scope. He describes the region’s natural resources, flora and fauna, and terrain. He also writes in detail about the Amerindians and their religious and political practices.
A significant contribution to Renaissance Europe's thinking about the New World, Acosta's Natural and Moral History of the Indies reveals an effort to incorporate new information into a Christian, Renaissance worldview. He attempted to confirm for his European readers that a "new" continent did indeed exist and that human beings could and did live in equatorial climates. A keen observer and prescient thinker, Acosta hypothesized that Latin America's indigenous peoples migrated to the region from Asia, an idea put forth more than a century before Europeans learned of the Bering Strait. Acosta's work established a hierarchical classification of Amerindian peoples and thus contributed to what today is understood as the colonial difference in Renaissance European thinking.”

~~~~iceman9090

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 20, 2020 11:11AM

"It looks like Joseph Smith took the idea of natives being a lost Israel tribe seriously and inserted it into his book.
The believers in the BOM certainly take it seriously."

Joseph Smith was a con who never had an original idea in his life. He was more than a copier of others though. He took their ideas and writings and what have you, and made them his own. He was clever that way if not genius enough to make them stand up to scrutiny.

My Mother always brags that Joseph had no way to know anything about the American Indians being tribes of Israel. But there was much speculation of this long before his time.

From what I have studied, even as a young man he was highly skilled at telling stories of the Native Americans based on the speculations of others--perhaps he was even aware of Acosta as he was probably aware of the book, "View of the Hebrews"by Ethan Smith, 1823, that is a non-fiction account bordering on what Joseph and team wrote in the BoM. His mother is on record of bragging of his story telling and fertile imagination in this regard.

Did he take it seriously as you posit? Only serious in regard to being useful to his con. Thar was money in them there religious revivals. Much more than there had ever been in his glass looking---that was "chump change."

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: November 20, 2020 11:15AM

Magical thinking + dirt poor survival skills = The Smith Family's religion. The narrative doesn't matter as long as the family circus survives.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 20, 2020 06:31PM

> The narrative doesn't matter as long as the family circus survives.

EB, you are on a role today: one comment after another ostensibly about Mormon leaders but even more apt as descriptions of current political leaders.

I hope it's all intentional!

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Posted by: JoeSmith666 ( )
Date: November 19, 2020 04:45PM

Jesus himself mentions Figs in the New World talk to the survivors when he visits.
Surely all of them knew what he was talking about since there were no Fig Trees in the new World...

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: November 19, 2020 05:18PM

You forgot the night of no darkness to announce his birth

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Posted by: slskipper ( )
Date: November 19, 2020 10:00PM

IMO the main way Jesus shows up is in the sermons and "prophecies". King Benjamin's speech (Book of Mosiah?) is essentially a camp-revival polemic about coning to Jesus to be saved. All of the book is one long sermon about 1820s evangelical Protestantism. The Isaiah chapters are the ones that concentrate on the future messiah. And so on.

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: November 20, 2020 06:10PM

It's been more than 35 years since I attended Mormon meetings but the conspicuous absence of Jesus from anything Mormon back then was a defining situation in producing my absence. I recall there were times in sacrament meetings when I barely filled a postage stamp keeping track of the times he was even mentioned. The end of opening and closing prayers counted 2; sacrament prayers counted 2; and 2 to three, depending on the number of speakers, at the end of talks for a grand total of 6 0r 7 times. Perhaps today is different?

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Posted by: ufotofuabbaufotofu ( )
Date: November 20, 2020 08:39PM

kentish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... the conspicuous absence of Jesus from anything Mormon... the times he was even mentioned... for a
> grand total of 6 0r 7 times...
>

Yeah, but more than half the time they are saying things in his name, as if he agreed or authorized any of that......

Experience tells Jesus is ACTUALLY mentioned in typical LDS chapels probably on average less than 50 times a year, most usually around Christmas.

In The Name Of Jeaus Christ isn't really mentioning Him. It's more like making association with someone simply for name dropping, or, listen to me...

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: November 20, 2020 06:24PM

Where are the teachings & every-day examples of Christ-like living in the BoM?

Where is Christ mixing with every-day folks, being gentle, focusing on the Core teachings (Love for God & Neighbor, etc.)

the Irony is that Mormons say that the 'Plain & Precious Parts' of Christ's gospel were missing from the Bible... HUH?

- Parable of the Good Samaritan

- Golden Rule

- Love for God & Neighbor?

instead, Joe gives people improbable stories of submarines & lighted rocks, Horses in N.America, plates that weren't used AFTER his history of money-digging, etc.

After Joe the Mormons got BY who: hated blacks, Required Strict Obedience / Loyalty, co-mingled his personal finances *HA* with church funds, Didn't provide for all his wives....

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Posted by: ufotofuabbaufotofu ( )
Date: November 20, 2020 08:25PM

He didn't write it
He didn't bury it
He didn't dig it up

Hell, He didn't even authorize it.
Probably doesn't believe in it.
And has never even read it.

See, it's really about its "author", who the followers worship.

Jesus was inserted for arousing interest (interest in tithing)... when has standard western wasn't selling.

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Posted by: ufotofuNLI ( )
Date: November 22, 2020 11:25AM

He got squeezed out
Joseph was too big
In his mind

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