Are Mormons learning anything from the gracious, classy, thoughtful Mr. Cooper? I am.

What Jay is referring to is that Amy Cooper (dog walker) has received death threats, which Christian Cooper (birdwatcher) has denounced.

Amy Cooper (no relation to Christian Cooper) is definitely a piece of work. But I have a problem with her losing her job, even if her conduct was despicable. From social pariah to unemployed to possible victim of violence? "Cancel culture" has gone too far.

But yes, Christian Cooper is a class act.

The woman lied to police--"a black man is threatening my life"--in a way that might have put him in jail or worse.

Franklin Templeton would have been insane to keep her on. She's proved herself not only an embarrassment with the firm's clients but with its staff. What black employee would ever feel safe with her as a boss?

Can she ever be trusted to do the moral thing when no one is watching? Is she a safe person to have making decisions for your firm? No public corporation has any obligation to keep such a person on their payroll. In fact, such a firm would be insane to bear the liabilities she creates.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2020 12:01PM by Lot's Wife.

Her employer has to consider the incident in the context of other information. Is there evidence of panicky or racist remarks or conduct in the past (on and off the job)? Other indications of instability? What about her general work performance, such as productivity, use or abuse of sick leave, personal problems encroaching on the work place, relationships with her peers and subordinates?

Was she given an opportunity to explain the situation? (Acknowledging that Franklin Templeton is not obligated to practice full due process, but fair is fair.)

Were other remedies considered? Suspension, leave of absence, demotion, retraining, transfer?

In sum, her conduct was reprehensible, but I don't want to see a mess made of her entire life based on 120 seconds of very bad behavior, until a larger context of her behavior and other solutions to the situation.

Cancel culture has a repugnant Queen of Hearts psychology to it.

Franklin Templeton put her on administrative leave to check and see if there was more to the story beyond what they saw in the video.

Apparently they decided that no, she had pretty much just threatened to life and liberty of a black man over a civil request to leash her dog, though I think it was his recording her committing a misdemeanor that set her off, so she raised the stakes and committed what I suppose is a felony (filing a false police report) if a 911 call qualifies as a report of a crime.

I'm pretty sure the police are not going to file charges because losing her job and dog and being hated by 90% of New Yorkers is probably more than enough punishment. Not likely anyone else will try that stunt anytime soon.

> Her employer has to consider the incident in the
> context of other information.

No, an employer does not need to consider other information. People get fired from their jobs for wearing inappropriate clothing or speaking sharply with a customer. You seem to insist on a higher standard for dangerous racism than for bad personal hygiene.


---------------
> Is there evidence of
> panicky or racist remarks or conduct in the past
> (on and off the job)? Other indications of
> instability? What about her general work
> performance, such as productivity, use or abuse of
> sick leave, personal problems encroaching on the
> work place, relationships with her peers and
> subordinates?

"Yes, she tried to ruin a man's life on the basis of his race, but on the other hand she submits her expense reports promptly!"


--------------
> Were other remedies considered? Suspension, leave
> of absence, demotion, retraining, transfer?

Seriously? Exactly what does an employee have to do before you consider discharge appropriate?


--------------
> In sum, her conduct was reprehensible, but I don't
> want to see a mess made of her entire life based
> on 120 seconds of very bad behavior. . .

You could say that about any crime, even murder.


------------------
> Cancel culture has a repugnant Queen of Hearts
> psychology to it.

If someone had accused you when you were a police officer of having beaten a suspect, or using your power to rape a woman, or stolen drugs from a suspect for personal use, would you be defending that person now?

I wouldn't. I think such a person should be in jail for falsely threatening to ruin your life. What happened to Cooper was every bit as serious as the situations I describe. In fact, it was more serious since it could have ended in his death.

How come "cancel culture" didn't cancel you ?

Yes, his compassion for the blowback she was experiencing impressed me.

It really impressed me as well. I'm not sure I would be that gracious. Truly classy.

Links?

"Cooper has written stories for Marvel Comics Presents, which often feature Ghost Rider and Vengeance. He has also edited a number of X-Men collections ,and introduced the first gay male character, Yoshi Mishima, in a Star Trek comic. Previously he was president of the Harvard Ornithological Club, in the 1980s, and is currently a senior biomedical editor at Health Science Communications."

I like that he's a birdwatcher. My wife and I are too. Wednesday evening we had a Barred owl land in our cedar tree in the backyard, sat there for about 20 minutes while we took pics.

So sad all this had to happen over a dog that should have been leashed but wasn't.

There is, however, a silver lining.

Karen is ubiquitous in the United States and it's good for people to see how her actions imperil others. Coming after examples of fatal racism in Minneapolis and Georgia, this is an opportunity for people to see the slightly more subtle sort of thing that happens daily in this country to people with too much melanin.

The glass is half full, my friend.

I too love that Mr. Cooper is a birdwatcher. It sounds romantic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2020 03:22PM by Nightingale.

No. It's not. You can still get arrested for having sex with an Emu.

Once you go ostrich you'll never go back.

Both options sound extremely dangerous to me. Both birds have vicious talons with which they would likely as not rip yer todger off!

And quite right too, poor birds.

Oh no! Not his todger!

Absolutely. As a parent of a black step-daughter, her black husband and my black grandbaby, I hear of horror stories on a regular basis. My son-on-law is a VERY large black man. Think tall interior lineman. 6'5", 320 lbs. He has a heart of gold and is a very gentle man. But, he still has to be careful in public because he knows that he is an easy target. Very big and very black.

What will my grandbaby have to deal with?

But, we need to know that this type of thing happens all the time, everywhere in the US.

What will your grandchild have to deal with? If he lives in the south, he'll have to walk through parks with statues of men on horses who fought to keep his ancestors enslaved.

If he lives elsewhere he'll have to live in constant fear of the police. That isn't a matter of anti-police bias: it's a matter of statistics.

I have a dear friend, an old football player who spent decades in a prominent investment bank and now works for a famous philanthropy. He is approaching sixty years of age and, I'd guess, is 5'10" and 180 pounds, so not as imposing as your SIL. But I've seen him when he sees police lights. He tenses up and when asked, said, "Lordy, I get frightened every time. . ."

The United States is not safe for people of color. And we MUST fix that. The situation is entirely unfair, entirely wrong.

Please distribute kisses to your relatives for me, Heidi, and know that I and many others are with you.

<<<MWAH>>>

And blushing was observed in Gomorrah!

This was the most spectacular display of white female privilege since "To Kill a Mockingbird", and that one was fiction. The woman just assumed she could get away with at the very least getting a black man hauled off to the police station, and possible much worse could have happened to him (trial and conviction, while unlikely, were clearly possible).

And she was willing to do this to somebody because he politely asked her to leash her dog. And she could bleeping well see that the encounter was being recorded, and she STILL thought her privilege would hold.

I hesitate to say female privilege because I can already hear poster Free Man in my head. Yes, women have power they can abuse. That does not mean they are the True Rulers of society. Slaves had substantial power too. They could run away. They could burn down buildings. they could kill their masters. They had real power. But they were still slaves.

Besides, the protecting of white womanhood was the primary mechanism for the white male establishment to enforce racism via lynchings. That was the plot line in To Kill a Mockingbird.

Amy Cooper's sense of criminal entitlement is just gobsmacking. Christian Cooper's handling of the situation was smooth and felt well practiced. This was not the first time he has had to deal with situations like this, though I would like to hope this is more egregious than most.

from earlier post:
"So sad all this had to happen over a dog that should have been leashed but wasn't."

I agree, though the dog being unleashed was not the root problem. If Amy had just leashed the dog when asked, that would have been the end of it. It was her trying to turn someone else's life to shit over a simple request to do the polite and legally required action that was the problem. And IMO it is not only sad as revolting.

> Christian Cooper's handling of the
> situation was smooth and felt well practiced. This
> was not the first time he has had to deal with
> situations like this...

Exactly. Dark-skinned people live with this sort of thing all the time. It is a burden that white people don't have to bear, and it is destructive in many ways.

Lynchings never go as you expect these days.

She is out of a job and being vilified now. Probably feels terrible about the whole thing.

Now is the time to send Missionaries to her as she will be looking for something to hold onto ... right?

How many times do people convert to Mormonism when they are hit by the missionaries after a drastic event in their life?

Bravo!

I'm confident she could find any number of fellow spirits in the church as well. A match made in heaven!

Trust me, I know that from extensive personal experience.

LW, I stand by my post, above. Cancel culture has gotten to the point where a single mistake can destroy a life. Comparing Amy's moment of bad decision-making to a homicide is hyperbole. Nor was she putting Christian's life in danger--that's BLA propaganda. Cops deal with these usually minor matters all the time, and here, Jordan is right: they never make the news.

Please note, I abhor Amy C's conduct, especially her political and financial affiliations. She's everything that's wrong with the entitled elite.I confess to my own touch of schedenfreude.

It's the principle here, that one, maybe two, bad acts, ruin a person forever. The NYC incident could have gotten more dangerous, but at its end-point is was simply odious. An analogy:

Company X maintains a chemical plant, buying materials and produc8ing products. Some people don't like the idea of chemical plants at all. Some don't like in their back yards.

A mistake is made, and "X" releases toxins. They apologize, and work to clean it up. For the eco-radicals and the NIMBI's, that may not, ever, be good enough. Shut down "X" they insist, demanding an absolutist "justice" conforming to purists' criteria.

Should "X" be shut down? If there's been a pattern of toxic negligence, maybe so. Then, maybe not--there are other remedies such as increased regulatory oversight, fines, retraining, etc. The fact is: "X" and Amy C both have lives of value, and produce things of value. There are other, more commensurate remedies.

Now, to mix up my Queen of Hearts metaphor: We're further down the slippery slope than we realize, or want to admit, carting Amy C and her ilk around in media tumbrels. As the Terror waxed, mere hearsay was sufficient to get a person loaded into tumbrels--literally.

Yes, comparing what she did with murder would be hyperbole but that is not what I did. What I said was that your suggestion that behavior over the course of 120 seconds should not have major consequences is absurd. People are jailed all the time for what they did in 120 seconds--and appropriately so.

You are wrong to minimize what she did. You always side with the police, which is the right thing to do 90% of the time but assuredly not 100%. Would police get this right if they had showed up? Probably. But no person, black or white, should ever be put in jeopardy by someone filing a false police report no matter how great that probability that the outcome will be okay.

I repeat: police officers' lives are ruined all the time by false reports. The people who file those reports should be jailed. But the same thing applies when the victim of the threat is a civilian, even a black civilian. I ask for nothing more than the uniform enforcement of the laws.

As for "cancel culture" and your antipathy towards Black Lives Matter, I don't really care. Those are your hobgoblins and not mine. This is an instance of mistreatment of a single man, not a political movement.

You know how they say that a person arrested for DUI had probably driven drunk another 20+ times before. Her racism just didn't pop up out of nowhere for this instance. She needed to be fired and she needs a good ass kicking.

And poof, Jordan is gone.

We'll doubtless see him again after he gets back from Pretoria.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And poof, Jordan is gone.
>
> We'll doubtless see him again after he gets back
> from Pretoria.

Truth dies in darkness, freedom for lack of debate. :}

Shut up and get me my Slushy.

From what I’ve seen of corporate life, if a couple of her co-workers and any superior had spoken up for her, they probably would have found some way to keep her.

“Karens” don’t practice ‘Karenism’ just out of the blue. There is probably a Going Away party planned for Friday, and her absence from the party is the reason they’ll be celebrating.

And remember, the person who ID’d her was someone she’d hired as a dog walker. What do you bet she’d ‘Karened’ him? And she gave back the dog, whom she may have mistreated.

People get cancer for no goddam good reason; she pulled the comeuppance down on her that she is suffering.

But I do wonder, did she, or any of life’s other Karens, learn anything they’ll put into practice?

Watch it, Becky.

The tragedy is that, despite all that has happened to her because of her own arrogance, Amy Cooper will most likely not have a change of heart any time soon about her behavior towards Christian Cooper. Even worse, there are a lot of Caucasians, most of whom are not Mormon, who agree with her stand and will encourage her to go even further, even in New York City. I probably shouldn't say this, but white rage and resentment are growing in the U.S. and that could spell big trouble for the future for all of us.

White rage and resentment, partly justified, is why we are where we are. It explains the social retrogression that we have experienced over the last several years as well as the reactive fury of people of color.

You can't expect things to get any better while the "dividers" are in charge.

She was horribly irresponsible to the dog. She put it's safety on the line in many ways. You can fight about the innocence or guilt of people but the dog was a true innocent.

That's a very good point.

It's not going to be a popular point of view, but I think they were both at fault, although of course, she much more so. One thing that I've found is that correcting someone else's behavior in public seldom goes well, especially if the person in question is willfully breaking the rules or law. If he wasn't under imminent threat from the dog, he might have been better off simply reporting it to a police officer. But even if he did decide to go with, "Ma'am, would you please leash your dog?", was there some reason why he didn't just keep walking away from her? To me, videoing could be seen as threatening behavior, although of course not to the extent the woman claimed. Yes, it's legal, but who among us wants to have a camera pointed in our faces by some stranger? The woman wasn't beating someone up, she just had her dog off-leash.

I don't think either one of them handled this well. JMO. And yes, her calling 911 was ridiculous and should be evaluated by the police.

I suspect he recorded it for self-protection. If the police were called, he would have video evidence of what did and didn't transpire. Given the number of incidents when the police have handcuffed (or worse) black men for doing normal things just because someone called the police, I wouldn't blame him for that.

I couldn't agree more. People needn't apologize for asserting their own rights.

I do get that. I'm just saying that it also had the effect of further inflaming the situation.

I'm also going to put this out there -- they are both New Yorkers. They are both *very* used to dealing with situations a whole lot scarier and or sketchier than this. New Yorkers tend not to sweat the small stuff. For instance, if someone has food or a boom box on the subway, you let it go. You don't go around fussing at each other over an off-leash dog. None of it makes any sense.

If nothing else, it showed her walking *towards* the "African-American man who threatened [her] life."

Many people don't believe this shit happens unless they see it. Except for people of color. We all have stories.

ETA: The off-leash dog was in a protected area of Central Park where migratory bird habitat has been destroyed. There are dog parks in Central Park.

She's some entitled person who thinks rules don't apply to her. She thinks nothing about the risk she put Mr. Cooper in. She thinks nothing about her abuse of her dog while she is in the process of subjecting a human being to such abuse.

The dog and the human say, "I can't breathe."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2020 04:47PM by Beth.

Thank heaven for videotaping. Without it all sorts of criminal behavior would go unnoticed let alone unpunished. In Georgia, in Minneapolis, in a dozen other locations in recent months things have happened that white people think unimaginable and would previously have rejected as incredible. Video is breaking down the barriers that separate the country into "haves" and "have-nots."

We live in a polity that permits expressions of rage in public, panhandlers to encroach on our personal space, and the right to associate with whomever we like. Videotaping is exactly the same. Whether it makes other people feel uncomfortable is not relevant: discomfort is the price of freedom.

Summer, you are usually the voice of reason. We all lay an egg every once in a while and today was your day.

What if nobody was filming in Minnesota?

What if he didn’t film and she called the police anyways?

I don't object at all to the filming in Minnesota. The police officer had a knee on the person's neck. I can't imagine any scenario where that would be considered safe or necessary. I can see the need of filming a police take-down.

A woman with an off-leash dog? Not so much. I understand *why* he filmed. I'm just saying that it also had the effect of further inflaming the situation.

in public, is at fault here? How so, summer?

I'm not saying entirely at fault. Legal doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do (I also was not happy with the yahoos that brought guns to the state capital protests.) I doubt you would like someone who was obviously filming you in public because they didn't like whatever it was you were doing.

My community requires dogs to be on leash as well. Once in a while I will see someone throwing a ball to their dog or otherwise having their dog off leash, and it's not a huge deal. If it was habitual, I'd bring it up to my community board, instead of discussing it with the person in question (which as I stated before, seldom goes well.)

I stand by what I said, that New Yorkers tend not to get worked up over little things because there are simply too many bigger things to worry about. Plus it's not worth risking how the other person may react.

In my opinion (and that's *all* that it is,) two people acted in a ridiculous fashion over a very minor matter. Is she much more at fault? Certainly. But I'm not giving him a free pass.

summer, cameras are routinely used all the time. There are security cameras in and around stores, television companies recording people whenever and wherever they want, police using body cams to video people constantly, and people recording others in all public parks and everywhere else. I see no reason that you can't use such a devise if someone is angry at you or may become angry at you.

Quite the contrary. If black people did not record their tense interactions, their misadventures and in many cases deaths would go unremarked. The cell phone camera is essential to safety and responsibility in modern America. I think everyone should use them in these situations every single time. No one is under any obligation to defuse someone else's anger especially when that person represents a threat to others and in this country.

A security camera is generally unobtrusive, and films anyone. Someone sticking a camera in your face does feel aggressive to me. I realize we have a difference of opinion about this, and that my POV is not a popular one. It's simply another take on things.

I have no problem with your different opinion. I would, however, note that a cell phone 50+ feet away from someone is hardly "in her face."

I get the feeling you think he pulled his camera out to film her with her dog off the leash.

I think he pull the camera out for an entirely different reason. The threats she was making.

Yes, I get that.

to step back.

Not in her face.

Not a free pass, just a leash.

It wasn't a "minor matter." The woman threatened the man's life and liberty. There are few situations that are more dire than that.

By minor matter, I'm talking about a dog being off-leash. When I lived in New York, my home was burglarized, someone lifted my wallet (with two weeks worth of pay,) someone attempted to steal my suitcase off of a subway, people were dealing drugs right outside my door. etc. My safety often felt threatened. These are major matters. As I said, most New Yorkers are not going to sweat the small stuff.

Mr. Cooper was simply being a good steward.

Dog owners habitually have their dogs off leash in the Ramble, hence the dog treats he and others carry for such situations. It gives the owners the time and desire to leash their dogs. He was right to film her, and he was right to be disturbed by an unleashed dog.

This is like having unleashed dogs run around national parks like they did when the govt shut down and people went hog wild at the parks.

I have a dog. She's the best dog in the world! (Sorry, Susan I/S, but it's true.) :P I only allow her off leash in designated areas. Period. I won't even take her hiking. I trust her to obey hand and voice commands in the dog park, but if we're on a trail and she sees a squirrel? It's game over - off goes my dog, off the trail, possibly spooking horses. It's not worth the risk to *others*.

So, yeah. He's a good steward. If nothing else, he filmed her abusing her dog! That alone is worth it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2020 05:37PM by Beth.

Correct Beth. No way in hell would I have even had my very smart, perfectly trained BC off lead there. You have no idea what is on the ground that they could step on or eat. Let alone what other dogs might be there with idiot owners that had them off lead. If it is not a place that you can 100% control you CONTROL YOUR DOG. And to me, that doesn't mean one of those retractable leashes either. Use a leash that can control the weight of the dog and use two hands. Loop on your right arm and your hand firmly holding the leash, across your body, left hand firmly on the leash at heel. If you do this, even if you fall on your ass the dog stays safe and with you. When we moved to our current house it was the third built in the development and after the builders left for the day or on the weekends I would walk her down for the mail but I did it on leash because there were nails and all kinds of other crap around. She was HORRIBLY insulted because she knew she heeled to perfection and never once did she ever even try to break from me off lead. She wouldn't talk to me for an hour after. Then this woman didn't leash when she saw someone there. Then she STILL didn't leash when there was a problem. Anyone that close that you don't know you leash for your dogs protection. Then she drags the poor thing into HIS space by the collar! Drags it away by the collar and hangs the poor thing while it twists and chokes!

She says the dog needed exercise. No doubt with that breed. So you put your little tennies on and jog with your dog honey! That is YOUR responsibility! Don't want to do that, pay someone. Don't want to do that, don't get this kind of a breed! Get a Coton like my Angel. She literally gets up in the morning and takes a nap.

OK. I will get off the soapbox now :)

Thank you!

She was practically choking that poor dog in the video. That alone put her on my sh!t list.

It is never ending with the leashlessness. I'm glad he stood up to her. I'm proud of him. Public spaces are becoming so pet friendly that people seem to think everyone should enjoy theirs. I don't enjoy theirs and their lack of leashing. It is a small thing to give other people a sense of security but hey, what do they care.