What would they be?
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2020 06:15PM by schrodingerscat.

Subject to change,

#1. It's clearly an abusive fraud. There is no other logical conclusion based upon the evidence I've seen. (Multiple lawsuits against the church, which they settled for an 'undisclosed sum' to silence victims I know personally, reading In Sacred Loneliness and Insider's View of Mormon Origins)
#2. You have to lie to your kids about an abusive fraud that has claimed 7 generations of my family alone.
#3. You're forced to remain silent and allow your children to be brainwashed with the same bogus myths that were used to claim millions as victims.
#4. You're foced to remain silent as your children are raised to believe in a God who cursed two races of their fellow men with dark skin for the sins of their fathers, after DNA evidence has proved the racist claims of the MORmON CULT false.
#5. Your children could easily fall victim to the toxic MORmON patriarchal power structure of Mormonism, which protects abusers and shames victims.
#6. You're forced to sing the praises of a man the Mormons now finally admit had 34 'wives', 11 of whom were children under the age of 18 (pedophile) and another 11 of whom were already married to his followers (Cuckold Bull).
#7. You're forced to pay 10% of your income to the church or forfeit the right to attend or even see your children's temple wedding.
#8. You're forced to wear magic underwear (Garments) if you want to go to their Masonic Lodges disguised as Temples.
#9. You're forced to swear suicidal oaths to never engage in loud laughter or light mindedness. lol
#10. Your tithes and offerings go to support the church owned "Universities" which are all named after a sexual predator who preyed upon his followers teenage daughters and wives, who ordered the murder of 130 members of the Fancher party alone.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Subject to change,
>
> #1. It's clearly an abusive fraud. There is no
> other logical conclusion based upon the evidence
> I've seen. (Multiple lawsuits against the church,
> which they settled for an 'undisclosed sum' to
> silence victims I know personally, reading In
> Sacred Loneliness and Insider's View of Mormon
> Origins)

     You say this over and over, "Clearly an abusive fraud"... But "clearly" it's not! Seemingly there is a good deal of difficulty, from what I've seen. It's the same as saying "Clearly Santa Claus does not exist!" And I would agree, but then I think we'd acknowledge that there's a lot of pretending going on. Could that be the case with the church?

> #2. You have to lie to your kids about an abusive
> fraud that has claimed 7 generations of my family
> alone.

     A lot of parents, one of my daughters included, don't think they're lying, because they (and she) can't see that "Clearly it's an abusive fraud." And 'clearly' I had a great time growing up in the church. It was much more of a help to me than it was a negative influence. Mileage varies, n'cest pas?

> #3. You're forced to remain silent and allow your
> children to be brainwashed with the same bogus
> myths that were used to claim millions as victims.

     "Forced to remain silent"? sometimes yes, sometimes no. I see it as more an agreement to disagree and to try to get along.

> #4. You're forced to remain silent as your children
> are raised to believe in a God who cursed two
> races of their fellow men with dark skin for the
> sins of their fathers, after DNA evidence has
> proved the racist claims of the MORmON CULT false.

     No. This is definitely a choice and what I've noticed is that the fewer the generations back in the church, the less likely the member is to hold racist views. No segment of the American population is 'pure' in this arena.

> #5. Your children could easily fall victim to the
> toxic MORmON patriarchal power structure of
> Mormonism, which protects abusers and shames
> victims.

     Yes! But victimhood is a learned behavior and one hopes that the younger generations are seeing the toxicity. Witness the temple change so that the wife does not have to swear fealty to her husband. (or something to that effect...)


> #6. You're forced to sing the praises of a man the
> Mormons now finally admit had 34 'wives', 11 of
> whom were children under the age of 18 (pedophile)
> and another 11 of whom were already married to his
> followers (Cuckold Bull).

     No one 'forces' TBMs to sing JoJu's praises. If that's the next song on the program, they sing along. The leadership praises him because that's what SLC teaches them...

> #7. You're forced to pay 10% of your income to the
> church or forfeit the right to attend or even see
> your children's temple wedding.

     Yeah, it's a social force

> #8. You're forced to wear magic underwear
> (Garments) if you want to go to their Masonic
> Lodges disguised as Temples.

     Again with the 'forced'. It's a rule, like wearing shoes and a shirt to get service in a store with a sign to that effect posted at the entrance. It's pay to play, but again, a social force.

> #9. You're forced to swear suicidal oaths to never
> engage in loud laughter or light mindedness. lol

     Yep, an old guy with a truncheon poised to strike watches you to make sure you swear this oath...if they're still doing that particular part of the ceremony.

> #10. Your tithes and offerings go to support the
> church owned "Universities" which are all named
> after a sexual predator who preyed upon his
> followers teenage daughters and wives, who ordered
> the murder of 130 members of the Fancher party
> alone.

     Hey, yeah, and thanks for that! $35/unit times 15 units per semester = $525/semester for tuition! YAY!!!

Although having to take a religion class every semester was a total bummer. Maybe someday Mormons will protest against BY like some people now protest against Christopher Columbus. Then the world will be made whole.



If you simmered down on your extremism, it might increase your actual impact on readers. As it stands now, I think you turn people off. I don't think "Extremism in attacking mormonism" is the best way to undermine it. The foam and froth might be turning people off. Yeah, yeah, I know, you've only doing what's right.

You'd have more of an "extremist" opinion if your loved ones had been victimized by this abusive cult.
But since it didn't happen to you, you dismiss those of us who speak for those who have been scared into silence. People like you enable the abuse to continue.

You are speaking for those who have been scared into silence...

Did these silent, scared folk contact you telepathically? Do you get the occasional anonymous communique thanking you for your service?

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are speaking for those who have been scared
> into silence...
>
> Did these silent, scared folk contact you
> telepathically? Do you get the occasional
> anonymous communique thanking you for your
> service?

One was my best friend growing up. He and his brother and almost our whole scout troop, were raped over a 4 year period, by our Scout Master, who was protected because he was a Priesthood holder. The victims were threatened with being disowned by their Mormon parents for speaking up. I gave sworn deposition in a successful multi-million dollar lawsuit which other friends filed against the church for enabling the abuse. I know of at least 10 victims of abuse.

But people like you criticize people like me for speaking up about the abuse we're aware of.
That's what enables the abuse to continue.
you give cover to the abusers.

That's a heavy accusation there SC. Olddog is an enabler because he disagrees with you.

I'm on your side as far as Mormonism is a fraud that enables abuse and indoctrinates you with garbage. It certainly did that with me. In fact in a measuring contest I would be willing to bet that I've seen and been a part of more trauma then most. And I still have brothers and sisters who are staunch Mormons in-spite of the horrible things that happened. They just don't see it the way you describe. And if you were to ask them they would tell you that Mormonism has done more good than harm for them.

So SC, the thing is, being right is almost always a function of not knowing enough.

jacob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's a heavy accusation there SC. Olddog is an
> enabler because he disagrees with you.

He doesn't just disagree with me, he actively tries to silence me, because I bring up the abuse that I'm well aware of. Silence gives cover to the abusers.
>
> I'm on your side as far as Mormonism is a fraud
> that enables abuse and indoctrinates you with
> garbage. It certainly did that with me. In fact in
> a measuring contest I would be willing to bet that
> I've seen and been a part of more trauma then
> most. And I still have brothers and sisters who
> are staunch Mormons in-spite of the horrible
> things that happened. They just don't see it the
> way you describe. And if you were to ask them they
> would tell you that Mormonism has done more good
> than harm for them.
>
> So SC, the thing is, being right is almost always
> a function of not knowing enough.

I know plenty. If I didn't speak up, I'd be just as guilty as the enablers.

For me:

#1. I'm an atheist
#2.
#3.
#4.
#5.
#6.
#7.
#8.
#9.
#10.

#1 A grown man asks teenagers on a regular basis if they masturbate. If they do, no temple trips, no mission... From age 12 till married

With regard to my life-long support and sustaining of mormonism, which my record clearly supports, I would like to announce that I am changing my tactics.


Attention, please, TBMs: Your church is a contagion, a cauldron of hate and despair. This is CLEARLY the case!!

Stop believing! Set yourselves free!!





There, I DO feel better, having now satisfactorily contributed to the end of the tyranny of mormonism. And I have copied my message and will repeat it, ad nauseam, until mormonism is nothing but a vague memory. After all "extremism in the pursuit of attention is not a sin." Ask any YouTube 'influencer'.

Of course, it might be a tad bit more effective if I were taking this message to mormons rather than posturing to exmormons, although it may be that the message is saving some of you from re-upping.

There is a class (among an infinite number of classes) of people who can 'single-focus' to such a degree that unsupportive facts become meaningless. It actually becomes a 'wrestling with a pig' situation when one engages in a discussion with a such laser-focused individual.

In my defense, Jacob (thank you!) offered the semi-sarcastic observation: "Olddog is an enabler because he disagrees with you."

In his response to this, SC said,

> He (me!) doesn't just disagree
> with me, he (me!) actively tries
> to silence me, because I bring
> up the abuse that I'm well aware
> of. Silence gives cover to the
> abusers.

In one sense, SC is correct. I have reported his "...if you mean the god of Einstein..." posts, starting about the 10th posting.

I don't think I've tried to stifle any of his anti-mormon posts, although I recall the urge to take a copy editor's red pencil to them... And I wasn't against him having a top-ten reasons not to be a mormon. I simply disagreed with some of his nominations.

I feel it is safe to assume that there are varying degrees of 'being an Exmo'. A case could be made that the simplest, and possibly the healthiest form, is to simply cut the church out of one's life and mind.

"Oh, you're from Utah? Are you a mormon?"

"Nope! What do you feel like having for lunch?"

The above is a very anti-SC response because the exmo gave up the opportunity to decry mormonism for the cesspool of stuff&things that SC says it is. Bad exmo!

Those of us on RfM are here, each for a personal reason, and that includes the NeverMOs. None of us, to my knowledge, support the existence of the mormon church. And also, to my knowledge, no one, besides SC, believes that our words here can or will stop mormon 'bad things' from existing.

Would it be wonderful if every ward house became a Dairy Queen, every Stake Center a Texas Roadhouse and every temple a laser tag battleground? You betcha!!

Should the bad people in mormonism be held to account for their illegal, and even immoral, actions? Sure! No skin off my nose if that were to happen. It might be a life-lesson for many!

Will the bad people in mormonism be held to account? Hopefully more than a few! But all of them? Having paid attention as I've lived my life, I will not hold my breath that this will be the case.


Even this thread...

C'mon, think about it! SC is asking us to respond with our top ten reasons for not being mormons. Sure, it might be palliative to make that list, but mostly it's just another venue for SC's unrestrained "Hey, look at me! Look at how much I know about how bad mormonism is" condition. We all have the 'look-at-me' gene, and without SC, someone else would have to be nominated for team leader, so I suppose he does serve a useful purpose.

As he has often stated, "If you don't like what I say, don't read my threads, don't read my posts!!" Crude of me, I know, but sometimes a fart can sneak in and do its dirty work. We are occupants of this online 'room', so telling someone to "just ignore me!" is unrealistic.

Sure, natter away, SC, but I'm gonna natter back. If there are degrees to being exmo, sure, you win, you're the greatest.

TLDR

Such an attention span for detail, accuracy and understanding.

#1 Mormonism is not true.
#2 You should not just do things people tell you to do unless they make sense. Mormons are always telling you to do things.
#3 You should not give away your money to bad causes. Organizations that lie, try to coerce people into doing questionable things, etc.

I only clean my own toilet. If I choose to associate and donate my moola to an organization, then I expect them to pay professional cleaners to mop the john.

1----10 Self Respect

#10. You realize Wilford Brimley is the product of mormonism.

#9. You enjoy romantic candlelit evenings with your spouse that you would prefer not having to return and report about.

#8. You have done the math on tithing and it clearly shows apostles have trouble with subtracting

#7. You now have to remove a neck tattoo that says "I am a Mormon" due to so much persecution from ward members

#6. You tire of sounding a trumpet every time you perform an act of service or special fast

#5. You thought you left other people deciding what underwear you would wear back in the second grade

#4. You tried writing scripture with your non dominant hand and it turned out better than many chapters in the Book of Mormon

#3. You can't afford cosmetic implants to help your testimony be heard with more power at church

#2. You sprained your ankle with the mental gymnastics involved with blacks not having priesthood

#1. You have racked your soul wondering why you have been so offended by other members and in frustration accidentally say "F*ck!" then suddenly mormons all around you are offended

There are so many reasons, so many reasons but here's my Top 3:
1. Mormonism's foundational text-the Book of Mormon- is poorly written fiction. The claims made within it are risible and easily refuted by reference to facts/logic.
2. The tithing racket.
3. Brother Joseph. Need I say more?