Hello guys,
Can someone explain this to me?

At Genesis 18:16, Abraham is negotiating with the jewish god to not destroy Sodom. Abraham wins. Abraham's final line is that if there are 10 good people in Sodom, don’t destroy it. Lot is in Sodom.
At Genesis 19:1 Lot is interacting with with 2 angels. This tells us that Lot is jewish. Lot bows down to them. The angels wanted to spend the entire night in the streets. Lot insists that they come over to his house. The 2 angels accept.
At Genesis 19:15, the 2 angels execute the jewish god’s plan. They ask Lot to take his family and leave. This tells us that Lot is a good guy and he is jewish. The 2 angels hold the hand of Lot and his family and they walk out of the city (Sodom). Lot, his nameless wife, his nameless 2 daughters. That’s 4 people. This is actually less than the 10 negotiated by Abraham.

~~~~iceman9090

Two points.

First, neither Lot nor Abraham were Jewish. I'm not sure where you get that idea.

Second, the deal was Sodom would be saved if Abraham could find ten virtuous people. He found less than ten and God destroyed the city. There is no contradiction.

I see. Thanks Lot's Wife.

So, what was Lot's religion?

~~~~iceman9090



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2020 11:44PM by iceman9090.

My pleasure.

The issue with Jewishness is that by the Biblical reckoning Judah was a descendant of Abraham, so Abraham could not have been Jewish. By a secular standard, the Hebrew people did not exist until 1,000-800 BCE, which was a millennium after Abraham.

The Abrahamic covenant was much more expansive than Jews or Judaism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2020 11:47PM by Lot's Wife.

> So, what was Lot's religion?

Replying to this, your added, sentence.

There was no Abrahamic religion before Abraham. The Bible says Abraham went to see Melchizedek to make offerings and receive a blessing, which seems to suggest that there was some sort of religion, or set of similar beliefs, that were shared by Abraham, Melchizedek, Lot, and some others. But there isn't much evidence of what that might have been and it seems more likely that they were part of an older tribal alliance of sorts and that Abraham was offering tribute in exchange for a military or commercial pact of some sort. But even Abraham wasn't Jewish since the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic law didn't come for another several centuries.

Religious types suggest that there must have been a proto-Hebrewism, and Mormons claim Abraham had the higher law and priesthood. But secular archaeology doesn't offer support for any of this. There isn't even good evidence for the existence of Abraham or Lot, and the Hebrew peoples only emerged from their Canaanite background around 1,000 BCE. At that point, moreover, they were polytheistic. In historical and archaeological terms, therefore, "Judaism" emerged with the YHWH cult around 600 BCE.

+Lot's Wife:

"By a secular standard, the Hebrew people did not exist until 1,000-800 BCE, which was a millennium after Abraham."

==How is it know that 1000-800 BCE is 1 millenium after Abraham?

"There was no Abrahamic religion before Abraham."

==But there was a religion right? All humans have some sort of beliefs and most seem to have some gods.

"But even Abraham wasn't Jewish since the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic law didn't come for another several centuries."

==Does the jewish religion come into existence when the 10 commandments were invented?

"Religious types suggest that there must have been a proto-Hebrewism, and Mormons claim Abraham had the higher law and priesthood. But secular archaeology doesn't offer support for any of this. There isn't even good evidence for the existence of Abraham or Lot, and the Hebrew peoples only emerged from their Canaanite background around 1,000 BCE. At that point, moreover, they were polytheistic. In historical and archaeological terms, therefore, "Judaism" emerged with the YHWH cult around 600 BCE."

==There are 2 worlds: The Bible world and the real world.
Abraham and Lot exist in the Bible universe and that's what I want to talk about.
There isn't anything in the Bible about these guys being polytheistic.

Atheists compare it to Spiderman comics and Spiderman in New York. Spiderman does exist in the form of ink on paper in Spiderman comics.
I am an atheist.

~~~~iceman9090

The Bible dates Abraham to about 1,900 BCE. There may have been a Hebrew or Israelite religion, but the term "Jewish" doesn't even make sense until after the Assyrians took Israel away and left only Judah and Benjamin ca 729 BCE. So even if you take the Bible as literal, there is a gap of well over 1,000 years.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Bible dates Abraham to about 1,900 BCE. There
> may have been a Hebrew or Israelite religion, but
> the term "Jewish" doesn't even make sense until
> after the Assyrians took Israel away and left only
> Judah and Benjamin ca 729 BCE. So even if you
> take the Bible as literal, there is a gap of well
> over 1,000 years.

Granted.

In addition to the above, however, all Jews--worldwide, and through the millennia--are considered [I don't know of a better word to use] to be descendants of Abraham (and Sarah).

I am a convert to Judaism. My Jewish name is Devorah bat Avram
(Devorah, daughter of Abraham)--and I sometimes add the "v'Sarah" to include Sarah as my original Jewish "mother".

For born Jews, their Jewish names are usually appended by "bat" ("daughter of") or "ben" ("son of") their biological Jewish father and/or mother. [We are presently in a state of flux on whether the father's name only, or the father's AND the mother's names, are used for offspring.]

Regardless: whether a given Jew is biologically Jewish born, or later becomes a Jew through conversion, all Jews consider Abraham and Sarah to be their original Jewish "parents."

I am not disputing your historical points, just adding some ancient-through-contemporary times Jewish context to them.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2020 01:04AM by Tevai.

Agreed.

But originally the twelve tribes all had equal status, so singling out the descendants of Judah would have been nonsensical. I believe Judah was more populated than some of the tribes (not to mention the Levites), but that tribe represented only about a tenth of Israel; and Abraham had other descendants than those through Isaac, so Judah's share of the total would have been an even smaller fraction.

History is written by the winners, and in the Biblical narrative that meant the Judaeans.

+Tevai:
“I am a convert to Judaism. My Jewish name is Devorah bat Avram”

==Hello Tevai or Devorah,
Can you read and write Hebrew?
If yes, can I ask you some questions?
If no, then do you know someone who does?

~~~~iceman9090

iceman9090 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> +Tevai:
> “I am a convert to Judaism. My Jewish name is
> Devorah bat Avram”
>
> ==Hello Tevai or Devorah,
> Can you read and write Hebrew?
> If yes, can I ask you some questions?
> If no, then do you know someone who does?
>
> ~~~~iceman9090

I converted through the Miller Introduction to Judaism program at the University of Judaism (which is now called American Jewish University; the Jewish movement/"denomination" is Conservative), on Mulholland Drive in Bel Air (near the Getty Museum in Los Angeles). The program still very much exists, but today it is structured differently than it was when I converted.

My sense is that it is a universal requirement that potential converts to Judaism must learn how to "read" the Hebrew language (even if they don't know the meaning of what they are reading). There are special primers, made specifically for beginning students who are adults, and those primers are very well designed to take just about anyone from zero knowledge of Hebrew to at least out-loud reading fluency in about three months of weekly study.

Which means: I can "read" Hebrew out loud (especially if it is voweled--"adult" level, or Israeli, Hebrew usually is NOT voweled), and I understand the words I know, but my actual ability to speak/understand most everyday Hebrew is limited. (This is, in fact, my coronavirus project: Raise my level of Hebrew comprehension to that of a ten-year-old who is reading a Hebrew language book written to that, ten-year-old, level of literacy.) I can also (with a bit of review, sometimes! ;) ) write Hebrew, either in cursive ("handwriting"-style), or in Hebrew "block" letters (what you would see on signs, etc.).

Which means: I don't know if my [at this moment], limited Hebrew skills are up to answering the questions you would like answered.

However: if you find your nearest synagogue/"shul" (the familiar term used by Jews) and go talk to the rabbi there, s/he will be able to read your Hebrew and answer your questions. I suggest that you seek out a Reform or Conservative or Jewish Secular Humanist, or Modern Orthodox congregation (you may, or may not, run into some practical problems with at least some of the other Orthodox congregations), you will likely be very happy with the results.

Another place to find help would be a college or university local to you who has a Hillel group--which functions as a Jewish "home when you're away from home" for Jewish students. You can phone any college or university and ask if they have a Hillel group, and if so, the phone number and the on-campus address. Among the Jewish members of any Hillel group will be some who want to eventually work as part of the rabbinate, or in Jewish organizational leadership--and these individuals will be particularly happy to talk to you because it will be a way to practice for what they envision their professional future will include.

I don't know what security issues may exist right now where you live (for obvious reasons, security has been heightened since the most recent synagogue shootings), or what new Covid-19 restrictions may be in place. If you phone the rabbi first and ask if you can come over, you will find that most rabbis are very friendly and welcoming and have regular office hours (during the week; not on Shabbat or any Jewish holidays) where they can talk to members of the larger community who want to talk with them. Be aware that Friday sundown (there is an exact, to the minute, clock time for each place on the planet; Google "when does Shabbat begin in [Utah]?" for the exact times), through Saturday sundown, is Shabbat, so this particular time per week is not appropriate for any rabbi's "office hours."

If what you want to understand is beyond that rabbi's personal linguistic ability, they will know exactly who to send you to. This is just normal life within Judaism.

The most likely scenario is that you ask your questions, and you will get immediate answers in a warmly welcoming environment.

Does this help?



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2020 08:23AM by Tevai.

+Tevai:
I guess it would be best if there was someone who grew up with the hebrew language.
Can you translate english to hebrew?

“If what you want to understand is beyond that rabbi's personal linguistic ability, they will know exactly who to send you to. This is just normal life within Judaism.”

==That’s not likely. I would just provide an ordinary sentence in english and it needs to be converted to hebrew. Nothing fancy. I just want to see the hebrew version.
For example:
I am walking from 16 th street to 20 th street to reach the park. Once I reach the park, I am going to dance, then sit down for 5 min, then stand up and look at the clouds for 1 hour.

~~~~iceman9090

iceman9090 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> +Tevai:
> I guess it would be best if there was someone who
> grew up with the hebrew language.
> Can you translate english to hebrew?

No. With a few, routine, daily-life exceptions, Hebrew and English are in separate tracks in my brain. I am nowhere near being able to translate most anything if it exceeds my meager vocabulary and grammar.


> “If what you want to understand is beyond that
> rabbi's personal linguistic ability, they will
> know exactly who to send you to. This is just
> normal life within Judaism.”
>
> ==That’s not likely. I would just provide an
> ordinary sentence in english and it needs to be
> converted to hebrew. Nothing fancy. I just want to
> see the hebrew version.
> For example:
> I am walking from 16 th street to 20 th street to
> reach the park. Once I reach the park, I am going
> to dance, then sit down for 5 min, then stand up
> and look at the clouds for 1 hour.

I dinna think you realize that this sentence contains (by my count) five different verb tenses! There is no way I (with my present knowledge) could translate this sentence into Hebrew.

You need someone who is fluent in conversational Hebrew--and your best bet might well be a native speaker. Call around and find out if your area has some kind of Israeli expat group and, if so, go to one of their gatherings--a place where nearly everyone would be able to instantly translate the sentence you want translated.

What you are looking for definitely exceeds (by a great deal) my personal capabilities.

Mazel tov!

+Lot's Wife:
“The Bible dates Abraham to about 1,900 BCE. There may have been a Hebrew or Israelite religion, but the term "Jewish" doesn't even make sense until after the Assyrians took Israel away and left only Judah and Benjamin ca 729 BCE. So even if you take the Bible as literal, there is a gap of well over 1,000 years.”

==But there is always a gap. I am a human. There was some human 1000 y ago. We are both classified as human even though there is a gap of 1000 y between us.
Why are the Assyrians significant in this jewish case thing?

I thought these guys,. Abraham, Lot, daughters and wife are believing in the same god and so sometimes, they talk to the god directly and sometimes angels.

~~~~iceman9090

I can't understand why you're so reluctant to research your own questions. First it was introductory economics, now Bronze Age history.

Try this for starters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_captivity

Congratulations. You are about to embark on a voyage of discovery.

You left off the part where nameless daughters got Lot drunk. Had intercourse with dear daddy and founded two nations that would rival the Israelites for centuries.

+Heartless:
“You left off the part where nameless daughters got Lot drunk. Had intercourse with dear daddy and founded two nations that would rival the Israelites for centuries.”

==That’s more of a moral issue. I think it is racism as well.
The text says the 2 ladies get pregnant and each has a male child. One is called Moab, which start up the Moabite tribe. The other kid is Benammi and he starts up the Ammon tribe. Both the Moabite tribe and Ammon tribe are hated by the jews. This is their way of saying that their grandmothers have no morals and by extension, they don't as well.
We would also have to wonder why the story is written that way. Why are the daughters immoral and not Lot? Well, Lot is suppose to be a good guy. The 2 angels go to Sodom and help Lot, his nameless wife and 2 daughters escape.
Lot’s wife is crap. She disobeys god. She turns around and turns into a pillar of salt.
The 2 daughters are crap. They get their father drunk and rape him.
Then, there is the issue of how drunk was Lot. Was he drunk to the point of not remembering what happened? Was he able to walk or think? How did he get an erection in that state of mind?

The story is located at Genesis 19:30.

~~~~iceman9090

These are some very good explanations but I also find it slightly humorous the Abrahamic explanations involving Lot come from Lot's Wife.

Lot is very old.

+MormonMartinLuther:
“These are some very good explanations but I also find it slightly humorous the Abrahamic explanations involving Lot come from Lot's Wife.”

==The sodium chloride gives him/her some strong logical powers.

~~~~iceman9090

In what after more that 15 years of study of what I consider to be recorded history viz Sumerian cuneiform tablets I have come to the conclusion that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is a rehash of the destruction of these two cities by a nuclear biological device during a war between two Annunaki armies. This legend was passed down for centuries then interpolated into the Hebrew bible.
Many of you will disagree with but that is OK. That doesn't change what I believe to be true

I don't agree but at least it isn't metaphysical - just really improbable.