Just read that the Area President responsible for utah for the church has issued a decree at all mormons in utah should wear masks.

Lets see if we see an increase in using masks.

Now if only the lighten pen would inscribe a revelation for the whole church.....

What happens if someone has to lip read?

https://www.amazon.com/Handmade-fabric-reading-improved-fabrics/dp/B088P7GXYF


You can buy anything with money!

Pen ran out of ink; since this 'never happened before', Russ & Wendy don't know source to re-supply ink.


Prayers for guidance / inspiration how to resolve this remain unanswered, at least to now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2020 11:09AM by GNPE.

I don't still have it to quote, but I did read a study, survey that showed that it was primarily Republicans, mostly the males, who refused to wear masks. That was weeks ago. Does seem to be true from a general sort of way from my observations.

That leaves Utah Mormons in a quandry--caught in the middle between church and state again. haha. When I was a kid my parents saw Dems as the "other" since the INSPIRED church leaders were staunch Republican. You should have heard what was said around our town when Kennedy was running.

Well, they didn't see them as "other" as they saw me, but that's a different story.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't still have it to quote, but I did read a
> study, survey that showed that it was primarily
> Republicans, mostly the males, who refused to wear
> masks.

Way to drag party and gender politics into this.

In my experience, it's age. The under 25s don't tend to bother and the very elderly tend not to.

I was sitting across from a McDonalds today and there was honestly an even gender split between those wearing masks and those not.

Well surely your survey this morning and your recent experiences totally put paid to any silly survey mentioned in the media.

Too bad D&D didn't offer a bounty to anyone 'proving' the article that he read was incorrect! Think of the money you'd have made with little to no effort!

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't still have it to quote, but I did read a
> study, survey that showed that it was primarily
> Republicans, mostly the males, who refused to wear
> masks. That was weeks ago. Does seem to be
> true from a general sort of way from my
> observations.
>
> That leaves Utah Mormons in a quandry--caught in
> the middle between church and state again. haha.
> When I was a kid my parents saw Dems as the
> "other" since the INSPIRED church leaders were
> staunch Republican. You should have heard what
> was said around our town when Kennedy was
> running.
>
> Well, they didn't see them as "other" as they saw
> me, but that's a different story.


Going back to LBJ (~53 years), there have been 25 years of Democratic presidents, and 28 years of Republican presidents.

In the 25 years of D presidents, there have been a total of 3 executive branch officials indicted, with 1 conviction, and 1 prison sentence.

In the 28 years of R presidents, there have been a total of 120 indictments of executive branch officials, 91 convictions, and 36 prison sentences.

Yes, but facts alone don't tell the whole story!

Since we know that ALL humans are imperfect, your so called facts only prove that Republicans are too polite and forgiving to point out errors and failings, while Democrats delight in doing so!

Which party best practices "let he who is without sin cast the first subpoena"?




/s

Let me remark how generous it was of you, EOD, to offer to match all donations to RfM out of your own pocket.

A scholar and a gentleman, you are!

Apparently there was a minor war at the CPA firm I use, and the strategy to write bad checks from a now-closed account was the ploy they decided on.

Gonna be interesting to see how this plays out!

Where's a social justice LEO when you need one?

That's all they can bring to bear – the Utah Area Presidency? Three drones from the Q70?

How hard could it be to simply attach the FP's autopens to this document instead? What happened to the Q15, are they all shivering in bunkers somewhere?

My brother was an Area Seventy. I paid attention to him and some others. They are the Danites who's weapons are not muscle and guns but directives as the conduits of the FP. They do the dirty work so that nothing can be pinned on the FP who can always claim they had nothing to do with anything.

It was the Area Seventies for instance who made sure everyone knew to contribute to Prop 8 while the FP appeared to know nothing about it and that Mormons just wanted to contribute of their own accord. That is just one example.

The FP are terrified to commit to anything. They are gutless self-protecting POS's. They have the convictions but not the courage of them. Prissy cowards.

Yep. You should see the comments on the D-News of mormons still not going to wear masks. The damn prophet should have made the announcement 2 months ago. Their silence encouraged their flock to act stupidly and irresponsibly. Nelson should make not wearing a mask an instant revocation of a temple recommend. That might get some people to wake up.

They can write a Primary song!

"Follow the Area Presidency, follow the Area Presidency, follow the Area Presidency, they know the way…"

On second thought, that doesn't quite have the same ring to it, does it?

The Q15 probably are shivering; it is quite chilly in the Granite Mountain Vaults. ;D

My son-in-laws' dad is one of those "they are interfering with my god-given rights" guy. He is TMB to the max.

I would love to ask him two questions: "How is that mask-wearing edict going for ya?" and "Why aren't the Q15 out there healing the sick and raising the dead?"

It's a sad state of affairs when people have to be commanded to do the right thing.

Doesn't it say somewhere in Mormon-ish scripture......."It's a slothful and unwise servant who must be compelled in all things."

Are that many mormons really that slothful and unwise ? Guess so.

D&C has a verse "it is not meet to be commanded in all things" then goes on to state members should actively do good things without being commanded to do them.

One would think that wearing a mask so you don't get others sick would be a good thing.

IF ChurchCo didn't run a Simon Says enterprise, what you're suggesting might / could happen, even Joey saw how gullible his followers were....

This has trickled down to members have lost sight of Honesty, Kindness, Respect for others bc all church leaders focus on is CHURCH CHURCH CHURCH.... which explains why Utah leads in scams both 'legal' & otherwise.

I didn't say that wearing a mask isn't a good idea. The virus is also just now starting to ramp-up here in Arizona. Read what I wrote about wearing a mask in my post above. The hatred and outright made-up assumptions about me here by a few select individuals only proves my point about lies, trust and mis-characterization (all deleted by Admins and I never complained to them here before they deleted those posts). And when Dr. Fauci (an expert in his field) makes mistakes it's only a learning experience (no foul... really?). But when the president makes a mis-statement in Dr. Fauci's field of expertise, it's near criminal in nature and unforgivable and makes him all kinds of bad things that they believed anyway. It's all like the church, irrational belief. Anybody else here see the dysfunction?

I can't help but to see a correlation between some people who make vicious attacks on others here, and the discussion about Ed Decker in another thread. Decker attacks the church telling any lie and exageration he can to try to win people over to his way of thinking (sheer emotion mixed with junk science and his own fears presented as facts). And in the case of Mormonism, he doesn't even have to lie but he does anyway. He discredits himself. The same is true when people make vicious attacks against someone for sheer differences of political opinion without articulating the issues intelligently and expressing rational arguements. Instead, it all goes back to claims of racism and xenophobia. Eventually, those irrational arguements will wear themselves out in the absence of objective evidence.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2020 06:34PM by azsteve.

the best starting place for any POTUS would be to recognize Right from Wrong and not to substitute political appeals for something that the outcome isn't 100% scientifically determined.

G. Washington couldn't tell a lie
Nixon couldn't tell the truth
Current Occupant: guess what....


Current occupant has unquestionably proven he's lacking in Both.

I don't see Dr. Fauci updating advice as having made a mistake. It's good practice to update as new info becomes available.

I also think people are best advised to stay within their own area of expertise when they are disseminating crucial info.

Your Prez is wearing a mask today, which he has declined to do before. That could be considered an error due to evidence masks can curtail the spread of a potentially deadly virus.

I'd rather move forward now with the best expert advice and see lives saved. I hope that happens. ASAP.

Agreed.

If the future is what concerns you, why did you just spend several paragraphs defending the president's decisions from months ago?

....hopefully some people learn from the past and use those lessons to guide their future.

It appears that the country may be trying to build herd immunity in the highest allowable levels without overwhelming the hospitals. We can't blame certain geographic areas as they become infected and subject to exponential expansion of the virus. Once again, it looks like some people are trying to politicize the virus to gain some political advantage or to prove they are good and correct while others are bad and incorrect. At least one person in this thread is screaming (by their own example) "AZSteve is right", even if they have completely opposite opinions and use Ed-Decker-methods to try to prove they're right.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2020 06:33PM by azsteve.

What a piece of work.


--------------
> It appears that the country may be trying to build
> herd immunity in the highest allowable levels
> without overwhelming the hospitals.

Do you have any evidence from anywhere suggesting that "the country [is] trying to build herd immunity?" Because what you are trying to do is portray an unintentional disaster as the calculated choice of government officials.

So prove your point. What political leader has espoused the policy you describe?


-----------------
> We can't blame
> certain geographic areas as they become infected
> and subject to exponential expansion of the virus.

So you think it is wrong to blame China?


---------------
> Once again, it looks like some people are trying
> to politicize the virus to gain some political
> advantage or to prove they are good and correct
> while others are bad and incorrect.

Facts are facts. The country had the pandemic almost under control but then it exploded in FL, TX, AZ, and the areas around Orange County in southern CA. What is wrong in stating that reality explicitly?

Is it your view that facts must be evaluated on the basis of their political implications before they may appropriately be vocalized? Because as Orwell wrote, that is totalitarian thinking.


--------------
> At least one
> person in this thread is screaming (by their own
> example) "AZSteve is right", even if they have
> completely opposite opinions and use
> Ed-Decker-methods to try to prove they're right.

Don't be shy, azsteve. Use your words and say "Lot's Wife" when it is me whom you criticize. Once that is clear, I declare directly and unequivocally that I do NOT think "azsteve is right." I declare that you are wrong in your description of events and deceptive, perhaps even self-deceptive, when you minimize or mischaracterize what are undeniable facts.


-------------
As Angela Merkle said the other day, "you cannot fight the pandemic with lies."

The same is true of the truth. You cannot fight the truth with lies, mischaracterizations, or spin.

Note also that your original post was deleted. So when you are complaining about others challenging your thinking and the admins deleting those challenges, you should perhaps mention that in many cases those critiques are removed because they follow your deleted (a)musings.

The most salient parts of my original post remain in-tact in this thread. I think the Admins just wanted to remove the vicious attacks which I did not start nor intend to foment. It's valid and innocent enough to say here that if you mis-treat or lie anyone in attempts to gain personal advantages against them, that they tend to become non-cooperative and that even trickles down to whether or not someone agrees to wear a mask.

Wait--you are saying that the admins removed your perfectly appropriate post because the posts that followed it were bad?

Yeah, that's credible.

as a 'National Leader', POTUS didn't take the safe posture regarding this, a deadly disease, instead, he poo-pooed it blaming the Democrats; if that isn't a GROSS MALFEASANCE of his duties as president... What possibly might or could be?

I gots me a pretty cool pen also.

Looks like there is competition for leadership. Who knew all you needed was an awesome pen to become a leader?

In fact, changing an opinion in the face of new information is the sign of a well functioning mind.

Besides, information given out by experts is based on more than personal opinion. As more is learned about the NOVEL coronavirus the expert advice is updated. Again, based on facts available at a given time.

COVID-19 is called a novel virus, meaning new. Something not before experienced. As scientists and medical experts rushed to learn its secrets they informed authorities and the public when they learned a detail that either confirmed previous information or updated it. Yes, there are changes. That can be frustrating and confusing. But would you rather the experts don't bug us with updates or is it better to be as current and well informed as possible.

I think that Dr. Faici is doing his best and should be given some leeway to learn and to revise his initial assumptions as conditions change. The same should be equally true for POTUS and for the State Governors and leaders of local municipalities. This shouldn't be a difficult concept for reasonable people to agree to.

My theory (and this is just my personal guess and not what I think is policy nor conspiracy) is that there is likely a very organic-type of process going on in the US and probably everywhere as everyone does their personal part of managing the virus. It's partially political and it's partially intuitive and is weighed against all of societies needs and available resources. We all understand the eventual goal of herd immunity and the common goal of survival. Most of us need to work to earn a living. Most of us have social needs. When we damage our body, many of our internal systems start complex processes that we do not conciously understand fully (unless you're an MD), to repair the wound and slow or stop its spread in ways that are harmful to our eventual long-term survival. It's a balancing of personal bodily resources. That is more similar to what I suspect may be going-on now with respect to this pandemic. When you have a bad injury to your body, your digestive processes slow down and you need more sleep to recover. Critical resourcing is sent where needed. The various levels of government are just the intuitive coordinators of an unspoken and not fully understood process of keeping our societal organism alive. They listen to the people in ways that may mimic how your body may call more white blood cells to the most damaged parts of your injured body. It's a very complex process. At the same time, your heart still needs to keep beating, your lungs still need to work. Some resourcing is used for those purposes also. Essential services are maintained. Somehow nature knows how to keep you alive and fix the damage without needing to ask a human expert what it needs to do next. So my guess is that this living organism that we call society is doing what it needs to do to heal as quickly as possible and to survive similar future attacks. Maybe not all lines of communication are verbal or explicit. We all share our unique abilities to help the society survive. It just happens through several series of very complex human interactions. If this theory is true, we could be striving for herd immunity collaboratively without a conscious plan to do so. When you're attacked by a vicious animal, your adrenal glands do not speak in English to call for the resourcing to create a fight or flight response (or whatever other biological response is appropriate to survive). Something makes it happen anyway without having an established plan mapped out and agreed to on the Senate floor. I think there is a lot type of comunication going on right now during this pandemic.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2020 07:54PM by azsteve.

> I think that Dr. Faici is doing his best and
> should be given some leeway to learn and to revise
> his initial assumptions as conditions change. The
> same should be equally true for POTUS and for the
> State Governors and leaders of local
> municipalities. This shouldn't be a difficult
> concept for reasonable people to agree to.

Why is it only the United States that has to go through this process to reach the conclusion that the other rich countries reached months ago? What characteristic allowed Taiwan, South Korea, Germany, France, Italy, and so many others to learn the requisite lessons so much faster?


----------------
> The various levels of government are just the
> intuitive coordinators of an unspoken and not
> fully understood process of keeping our societal
> organism alive. They listen to the people in ways
> that may mimic how your body may call more white
> blood cells to the most damaged parts of your
> injured body.

Why is the US social and governmental "immune system" so much less effective than everyone else's?


-----------------
> Essential services are maintained.

The shortage of testing, PPE, and hospital resources and the extremely high level of cases and deaths indicate that essential services are NOT being maintained.


----------------
> Somehow nature knows how to keep
> you alive and fix the damage without needing to
> ask a human expert what it needs to do next.

Nature knows nothing of the sort. Witness the extinction of the vast majority of organisms--and all but one form of humans--that have ever existed on earth.

Nature is indifferent to the life forms that serially and temporarily inhabit the planet.


--------------
> If this theory is true, we
> could be striving for herd immunity
> collaboratively without a conscious plan to do so.

Religion again.


-----------
> When you're attacked by a vicious animal, your
> adrenal glands do not speak in English to call for
> the resourcing to create a fight or flight
> response (or whatever other biological response is
> appropriate to survive). Something makes it happen
> anyway without having an established plan mapped
> out and agreed to on the Senate floor. I think
> there is a lot type of comunication going on right
> now during this pandemic.

The consensus was reached months ago. Something unique to the United States prevented it from becoming policy.

What was that?