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Posted by: Anonymousmessage ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 06:15PM

Hello everyone, I choose to remain anonymous for this post; but seriously, this site has gotten out of hand. I see posts supporting cancel culture, and especially with the tearing down of statues. Cancel culture is evil, and it's doing more harm than good. It's important to remember history and NOT DESTROY IT. The American System is not "systematically evil" like so many of you think it is. It had some really bad parts 150 YEARS AGO!!! It's time to move forward, and to stop with "tearing down the system." I know I'll get called a racist in the comments, but nothing about this is racist. Hell, this may even get taken down. I recognize that some may be offended from confederate statues, and I get that. I really do. However, remember that those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it. Thats why you hear stories of TBM's molesting girls, just like old Joe smith back in the day. Anyway, this is just a reminder that America is the greatest country ever, and we should support it, not tear it down.

Have a nice day guys.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 06:21PM

So there is no history unless there are statues glorifying horrible people ?

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Posted by: Anonymousmessage ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 06:39PM

Dave, statues aren't set up to glorify the bad things people have done. For example, Martin Luther King was AWFUL to women. We don't celebrate that when we think of him, we celebrate how he gave African Americans rights that they deserve. Same with George Washington. We don't celebrate that he had slaves, we celebrate that he lead the patriots to victory of the evil British empire. (With plenty of other good deeds benefiting you and me)
Remember, we're all humans and we're not perfect. If we only have statues of "perfect people" there wouldn't be any statues to remember the good things people have done.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 06:56PM

What did the confederates do that is worthy of glorification? I mean, besides fighting to keep humans as subhumans and trying to destroy the union?

Give us some examples here. What achievements and virtues are those statues commemorating?

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Posted by: Anonymousmessage ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 07:33PM

That was aimed for the people wanting to rip down Washington, and other presidents statues. For the confederates, nothing. Just keep them up to remind us not to do that again.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 07:50PM

No, move them out of public and official spaces. The presence of confederate monuments in public squares makes a big chunk of the US population deeply uncomfortable.

Save the statues but get them the hell out of any place that enjoys the governmental imprimatur.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 07:03PM

Systemically, not systematically. And I don't recall anyone saying the US is systemically evil. It is systemically racist. That is one facet of the US.

Don't fret. the statues are being stored, and will end up in museums some day.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 07:17PM

Tell us how many black people the confederates murdered.

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Posted by: Anonymousmessage ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 07:36PM

Honestly man, it depends. If your talking the whole slave trade millions, if its just slaves google says 90,000. Inform me if I'm wrong though.

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Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 07:39PM

Anonymousmessage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------> Remember, we're all humans and we're not perfect.
> If we only have statues of "perfect people" there
> wouldn't be any statues to remember the good
> things people have done.

I really hate the “nobody is perfect” argument. I don’t want statues removed because the subjects fall short of perfection, I want them removed because the people represented were enemies of the United States of America who worked to kill American soldiers in order to continue the practice of owning human beings as pieces of property.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 06:29PM

>> America is the greatest country ever.

Said by America.

Confederate statues don't make me uncomfortable, but I acknowledge that they do make others very uncomfortable, and that makes me uncomfortable.

Statues can be removed and put in museums. Wanna see? Pay your nickle and go in. The south's treason is taught in schools, but they need the focus to be remembering what it really was, and learning about it so it doesn't happen again.

Like Nazi's in Germany. Go see them in a museum, not standing tall in the public square memorialized for ALL to see.

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Posted by: Heidi GWOTR ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 06:46PM

I agree completely Roy. They should be in a museum which explains the history that goes with that particular statue.

And, yes, Germany has done this very well. They have left some of the concentration camps up, and all school children must visit them. They are taught the true history. Not a gloried rendition of it.

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Posted by: Anonymousmessage ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 07:37PM

Well, with the cancel culture movement in America, can we trust that those lessons will be taught in schools? No one I know really goes to museums, even before the coronavirus. School is more indoctrination anyway, so keeping the statues up will give them education on the past.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 08:03PM

No one you know goes to museums? What a surprise.

Museums are FULL of history, essential for education about the past. In fact, many schools try to take students to local museums. Those field trips were a highlight from my school years.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 08:11PM

> so keeping the statues up will give them education on the past.

But it will educate them in falsehoods. Those statues convey the message that the confederates were heroes rather than traitors, that they were the epitome of personal virtue even as they kept people like animals and beat, raped, and killed in vast numbers.

You want the FALSE version of history preserved. It is YOU who represents "cancel culture."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2020 04:57AM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Morridoran ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 08:32PM

20 years ago I visited Russia. Wandering through a park we came upon a back corner that had many Soviet statues in a pile. The Russians often used the phrase “in Soviet Times...” and then told of how things had changed for the better. They wanted no reminders of the old days. Removal of those statues was an indication of citizen power and hope for the future.

I think many feel the same about the US and our Racist Times. Of course, that never means bad times don’t come back, but it a positive indication that society wants to move beyond our mistakes.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 09:23PM

You know what we never hear?

The people who want to keep the confederate statues in place arguing that the Soviet Union was wrong to toss out the Lenin and Stalin statues. There is an implicit double standard, an assertion that right-wing/confederate monuments are valuable but left-wing/socialist/communist monuments are not.

No advocate of confederate statuary should be taken seriously until s/he explains that Nazi and Soviet art should be restored.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 09:37PM

Nor do they think it was a travesty when the Saddam Hussein statue was torn down in the aftermath of the Iraq war.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 09:38PM

Yeah. Totally one-sided.

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Posted by: Rising Son ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 05:18AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know what we never hear?
>
> The people who want to keep the confederate
> statues in place arguing that the Soviet Union was
> wrong to toss out the Lenin and Stalin statues.

> There is an implicit double standard, an assertion
> that right-wing/confederate monuments are valuable
> but left-wing/socialist/communist monuments are
> not.
>
> No advocate of confederate statuary should be
> taken seriously until s/he explains that Nazi and
> Soviet art should be restored.

The Hungarians did the right thing, by putting them all in a park and charging entry. The other option is an indoor museum.

As I'm sure you know, there are one or two Communist statues in North America. Some were bought after the fall of the Soviet Union and are used ironically.

The PRC still continues to have images of Mao everywhere, who is probably the biggest mass murderer in history. His victims are in the tens of millions (more than Hitler and Stalin combined.)

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 05:24AM

> The Hungarians did the right thing, by putting
> them all in a park and charging entry. The other
> option is an indoor museum.

I think that is right.

I have great reverence for history and would prefer to retain every bit of information we can. But that does not mean displaying in the public square lapidary and statuary lies like the confederate monuments. "Truth" requires telling the stories of the slaves and the soldiers who died for the union, not praising traitors as if they were more important than the real victims.

So what do we do? We separate the propaganda and lies from the state and preserve them in their own spaces. People can go and see those things--they should go see them--but they should be presented in the proper context as evidence of Jim Crow rather than the imagery of an official cult.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 06:42PM

If the Germans had started erecting statues a few decades ago, to glorify Hitler and his generals, would you support that, thinking that would have been an important aspect of history to memorialize? If they existed now, would you be supporting removing those statues due to what they represent?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2020 06:43PM by Devoted Exmo.

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Posted by: Anonymousmessage ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 06:50PM

Ah, good argument, and I totally get that. One thing to keep in mind is that Hitler murdered millions and turned his country into a sh*thole as opposed to confederate statues. They did murder millions and enslave people, and that's f*cked up, but that unfortunately was the norm back then. I'm not saying it's right either, I think that was awful. Slave trader statues should go away, but not the confederate generals, and especially not guys like Washington. Again, those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it. I think it would be beneficial for a monument remembering WW2 and what Hitler did. This would make sure that no one tries sh*t like that again. Same goes with slave monuments in America.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 06:56PM

"They did murder millions and enslave people, and that's f*cked up, but that unfortunately was the norm back then."

That was not the norm back then. The confederate states waged war against the united states in order to continue slavery. The monuments were erected long after the civil war in order to send the message that white power would remain the order of the day in the south and the African Americans living there should know their place.

This his nothing to do with learning history. It has everything to do with distorting history.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 06:58PM

Well said.

OPie claims he opposes "cancel culture" but what s/he advocates is the perpetuation of the ultimate "cancel:" the cancellation of millions of black humans' lives and suffering.

He wants to preserve the cancel culture that has troubled the United States for centuries.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2020 07:02PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Anonymousmessage ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 07:39PM

Slaves, especially in the south from when the colonies were founded to the civil war were a way of life. That is a fact. Facts don't care about your feelings.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 07:53PM

So build monuments to the slaves, not to their oppressors.

The South "canceled" the black experience by celebrating their owners and the traitors who tried to destroy the United States. You are inadvertently arguing for the preservation of that "cancellation."

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 08:18PM

So you wouldn't mind being a slave in the antebellum south.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 08:52PM

So you're comfortable with statues that glorify and honor slavery because it was a "fact of life". Hitler was a fact of life too. How should we honor him?

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 09:42PM

I guess those cancel culture libs should have left up the statue of Saddam Hussein in Firdos Square in Baghdad too since it was part of their history and all.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 09:58PM

While he did tend to murder people, it was just part of the normal situation. Now, without his statue, how will people know the history? We're doomed to repeat it without this statue.

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Posted by: Rising Son ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 05:24AM

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess those cancel culture libs should have left
> up the statue of Saddam Hussein in Firdos Square
> in Baghdad too since it was part of their history
> and all.

The toppling of that statue was a western organized stunt. I don't know how much love there is for SH in modern Iraq (probably quite a lot given the state of the place now - frequent bombings, crime, Islamic State etc)... But this was definitely staged. Western news channels made it look as if there was a huge crowd, when in fact there were a few people in one corner of the square bundled together pulling the thing down. We can be thankful other camera men were there that day so that we can see what really happened. It's said the camera never lies - but it can certainly bend the truth with a few different close ups and angles. (And Deep Fakes will become more common.)

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Posted by: Rising Son ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 05:30AM

There is a distinct parallel to the Mormon whitewashing of history. The LDS either omit or destroy evidence of history which embarrasses them. They may not engage in a Maoist-style (or even Protestant-style) "cultural revolution", but they have engaged in Stalinist style airbrushing out of doctrines ans people - "we never taught that", or more recently, telling everyone that the word "Mormon" was bad just a few years after using it in a major charm offensiive.

The chief difference is that the LDS doesn't have an actual mob running around like the Protestants once did, and it has never had full control of its history since the records and witnesses often lived outside its control.

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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 07:00PM

I think I'm missing all these posts!

Regretful, because there is little as entertaining as a good quality food-fight.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 07:06PM

And then there's love it or leave it, right?

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Posted by: oxymormon ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 07:07PM

If you take a really deep breath, it smells of white supremacy...

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 07:17PM

Who was it who said, "I love the smell of nationalism in the morning?"

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Posted by: Anonymousmessage ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 07:41PM

Nope, definitely NOT white supremacy. I don't believe that whites, or any other race is superior. We're all humans. Don't accuse me of that sh*t cause that's not what it is.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 03:15AM

Then why are you so intent upon maintaining the symbols of white supremacy?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2020 04:58AM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Rising Son ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 05:56AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Then why are you so intent upon maintaining the
> symbols of white supremacy?

What was it Santayana said? Something along the lines of those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. In some ways, this whole movement is like a woman who burns her teenage diaries because they contain mentions of drug use, ex-lovers and bands she now hates.

White Southern US identity *is* a thing. It doesn't have to be white supremacist, pro-slavery or pro-Confederacy, but it does exist. A classic example would be Johnny Cash who was definitely a white southerner but anti-racist. It exists partly because of that past and partly in spite of it. I see this as part of a wider attempt to produce one nation in the USA. Hollywood rarely portrays Southerners as anything but inbred, inarticulate, stupid and racist. In many such products, white southerners are likely to rape you ("Deliverance"), or try and lynch you ("Oh Brother Where art Thou?" and many more) This is in spite of the massive contributions that the white South has made to modern American culture like Rock music, Faulkner and so on.

There is a clear attempt to condemn this culture in toto, not just Confederate memorials, even though it exists independent of this racist past. It is linguistically distinct from the white north (more so than the Northern States are compared to most of Anglophone Canada), musically distinct, economically distinct (less industrialized) and so on.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 07:46PM

Taking a statue down and putting it in a museum or storing it is not Cancel Culture. This is called Progress Culture.

First, unlike a living person, the statue will have no idea that it has been cancelled, that no one is not talking to it anymore, or giving it credence and that its reputation has been irrevocably ruined.

Second, those offended by a statue of a person who enslaved or killed their ancestors or split their families up will not have to bump into it unexpectedly at the park when they go for a happy birthday or court house lawn when they go to pay a ticket or sue somebody, and have the statue make them feel bad while others tell them to "just get over it." Which would be the true Cancel Culture.


How many people do you cancel by leaving the statue in its place?


DONE. Really, really Done.

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Posted by: Rising Son ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 05:44AM

Okay, I am playing Devil's Advocate here a bit, but how is this current wave of statue smashing and toppling much different from the "rascally mob (as they were known at the time) who went around smashing and toppling statues during the Protestant Reformation? They believed they were doing right and removing the vestiges of a corrupt and evil history. They believed the Roman Catholic church was an oppressor (not without reason - think Inquisitions) and a mass murderer (again true), and that these statues were symbols of a Satanic evil which corrupted the truth.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 08:32PM

Who are statues for?


The dead who are no longer here?


Or the living, who are alive today?


People put up statues to honour someone.


Everything that you've said has a common thread: Fear.


The world that you are comfortable with is changing and you can't deal with it. That's what's really going on here.


Take the 19th Century emancipation statue. A former enslaved human being is kneeling at the feet of Abraham Lincoln. His chains are broken, but he is still portrayed as subservient and unequal. I saw this statue on a school trip and wondered why the former slave was kneeling instead of standing. I'm not the only person who thought this, either. It's not the 19th Century any more. Things change.


Today, no one would depict someone that way but back then they did. Basically, you are saying "I don't care." Well, a lot of people do care. It's racist. There's plenty of racist art from the past in museums that has artistic merit. That's where it belongs.


Another recent example are southern plantation tours that include tours of slave cabins and interpretive displays about the lives of the slaves. Some tourists only wanted to hear about the architecture and gardens only and NOT the truth. They wanted the rosy, "Gone With The Wind" image and not the ugliness of it.


How do you judge what is good and what is bad in a person. Nobody's perfect, but some things are beyond the pale.


Washington and Jefferson were Founding Fathers, but they were also slave owners. Today, the stories of the people who were forced to work for them against their will are told at Mount Vernon and Monticello too.


Think about it. We don't have statues of Hitler, Saddam, Idi Amin, or Qadaffi.

Some years ago there was a news story about a shop owner who put up a bust of Ho Chi Minh in a Vietnamese neighbourhood. Naturally, a lot of people who lived there were not very happy.

The Confederacy is long dead and slavery along with it. No one wants to glorify that era except white supremacists — and they are dying off and their children no longer believe in their hate filled ideology.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2020 08:34PM by anybody.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 08:41PM

Suppose they actually built this thirty foot high statue of Warren Jeffs with his arm resting on a child bride?

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2012/images12/2012_02_07_DailyMail_WhatAre_ph_girls.jpg


http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2012/01_02/2012_02_07_DailyMail_WhatAre.htm


Would you argue the statue should be preserved — or destroyed along with the rest of the ranch?

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 08:49PM

Human slavery in the Americas was never totally accepted.

There were people who opposed it — back even when it began in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery#Slavery_in_American_colonial_law


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism_in_the_United_Kingdom

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 10:19PM

And slavery was not the norm in the world by 1860. Most of the world had already outlawed it. Nor did most other countries have a bloody civil war to get rid of slavery. Slavery had been on its way out for quite some time, and it was obvious by 1860 that it was on its last legs. The secession of the confederacy was an act of total desperation.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 11:06PM

And we don't have to guess. They told us.

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/cornerstone-speech

"But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal."

Alexander H. Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy, 21 March 1861

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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 10:25PM

I'm going to cancel my memories of this post.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 10:29PM

;-)

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Posted by: frankie ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 11:30PM

I totally agree with you anonymousmessage!!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 16, 2020 11:36PM

Then answer the question.

Was it a mistake to take down the Saddam Hussein, Adolph Hitler, and Vladimir Lenin statues?

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Posted by: Anonymousmessage ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 12:52AM

No it wasn't. However I don't trust that in America's case, our kids will be taught about this and no one will really care. All they're taught is how if they're white (especially males) is how they're racist for simply being white.
Incorrect, and f**ked up!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 12:57AM

This is where you reveal your own bigotry. The only statues you think deserve to be protected are the ones that align with your political views. Those celebrating political movements of which you disapprove should be removed.

You want to preserve memorials that serve the interests of, in your words, "white males" and no one else. You have no objectivity and hence no credibility.




ETA: I should add that you don't even represent "white males," the vast majority of whom are not bigots and do not want to perpetuate fake history. They should not be tainted by the views of an ahistorical minority who only want to "cancel" reality.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2020 01:21AM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 02:44AM

Anonymousmessage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No it wasn't. However I don't trust that in
> America's case, our kids will be taught about this
> and no one will really care. All they're taught is
> how if they're white (especially males) is how
> they're racist for simply being white.
> Incorrect, and f**ked up!

Again, you are missing the point.

No one is inherently racist because of what "race" they are.

You can only be racist if you claim (a) that you are superior to people who don't look like you and (b) you have the social, political, and economic power to deny others the same rights that you have and force them to be inferior.

It's not about what colour you are.
It's about what you do.

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Posted by: Anonymousmessage ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 12:52AM

Yes, first person to do so. Thanks!!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 12:58AM

Neither of you should feel good about that convergence of views.

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Posted by: lindy ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 12:56AM

I'm still getting my head around " America is the greatest country ever'

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Posted by: thingsithink ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 02:54AM

Is it really that perplexing? Can you make the argument just for fun?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 03:13AM

This isn't a "fun" conversation. As is evident on TV nearly every day, it is deadly serious. So you may have to go elsewhere if your goal is personal entertainment.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 01:47AM

I think we tend to get emotionally attached to the version of history that we were raised with. But many times, that version of history is incomplete. History as it is written tends to be a reflection of culture and cultural values. Look at Mormon popular history, in which Joseph Smith is venerated as a martyr, the Saints were unjustly chased from town to town, and polygamy was instituted to help all of the widows.

Take Columbus, as an example. I was raised to see him as a brave explorer who "discovered America."

It wasn't until much later that I learned about early Viking explorations of the Americas. I also learned about the Taino people, whom Columbus and his men viewed as savages. The Taino had a developed culture. They introduced Columbus and his men to a game similar to soccer, which they played with rubber balls on groomed fields. The Europeans had never seen rubber balls before, and they loved bouncing them around. Neither had they seen the very comfortable hammocks, which the Taino used for sleeping. The Taino also made beautifully crafted boats. They welcomed Columbus and his crew with a huge feast, because that's the kind of people they were. It ended up costing them hugely. They were treated as slaves and wiped out by European diseases. Today, there are no full-blooded Taino.

So the full story is that Columbus did not see this rather cool tribe as people. He saw them as lesser beings to be exploited in order to satiate his own greed, and the greed of his people. And perhaps we should learn something from that, and view him in a more nuanced manner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2020 01:48AM by summer.

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Posted by: synonymous ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 02:02AM

So America is "the greatest country ever"… but you want to preserve statues that commemorate and glorify people who committed treason against America via an armed insurrection?

There are plenty of ways of remembering history without lionizing traitors. And that is precisely what these Confederate statues are meant to do.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 04:31AM

I find it interesting that a poster who is the same age as Helen Mar Kimball when she married Joe Smith and who has been here for less than 6 months feels the need to tell us that the "site has gotten out of hand".

Sounds a little arrogant to me.

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Posted by: Rising Son ( )
Date: July 17, 2020 05:38AM

Anonymousmessage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Anyway,
> this is just a reminder that America is the
> greatest country ever

Americans say that, but many people in most other countries would not agree. It depends on what you are basing it on. If you are talking about power, then that is certainly true. If you are talking about cultural productions then that is probably not true. Other countries have produced greater art works, music, literature etc according to the benchmarks set by others.

If you base it on, say, landing people on the Moon, I would definitely say so. But if you base it on how it has treated its own people both now and in the past, then that is not true. Even today people across the political spectrum can point to alleged faults within the system - at one end racial profiling by police and at the other increasing censorship by Google & friends.

Statements like that, much like history are open to debate. Much like statues.

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