Over my short time in the church, I've noticed that the majority of mormon guys are dorks. There's many other names that would fit such as "beta male" "chode" "cuck" "soy boy"... the list goes on and on. If you look at the youth of the church, the guys tend to be very insecure, dorky, timid and clearly lack confidence. Like geez someone get them a shot of testosterone! What I'm curious about is, what does the mormon church do to demasculize these males?


My thoughts are that this happens because mormon guys are taught to be submissive and meek. That along with the law of chastity could lead some serious problems (as I at least see)

I'm curious what your thoughts are.

Go on your mission and you will see some of the ones you can't see right now. I promise.

I'm betting there's some Sunday play-acting... That they are regular guys during the week, but come Sunday, they become holy.


Back in the day, before the 3-hour block, you'd be in mormon youth groups a lot: MIA, scouts, etc., and we were normal, testosterone-fueled jerks. Ask any of the old guys about church B-ball... Church B-Ball was a raging, Type-A, male bonding/ male basing experience; the timid need not apply.

I left before the advent of the 3-hour block, so I can't speak to the process that allowed the aaronic/ironic priesthood holders to become sissified, if that is indeed the case.


Hey, without all the social activity that my age group had, how do young mormons meet and mingle? How do you find someone NOT in your ward to date?

Hmm I don't think so. The only one in my ward (as far as I can tell) that does play acting is me! Even then I'm pretty outspoken and tend to speak my mind...

+hujo:
My wild guess is that they have many limits placed on them by their parents. They can’t watch movies or violent movies, no sitcoms, no drama, no porn, no video games, no cellphones, no dating.

Those are my wild guesses.

~~~~iceman9090

and blamed all of his problems on women who supposedly "done him wrong..."

Any chance that he's now posting on RfM? I can think of a likely candidate or two.

I'll sue...

Can't you just rain down thunder and lightning, Jesus?

It was on the news today that 42% of murders in Utah were the result of domestic violence.

If you remove the murders that are the result of business disputes in the drug trade (it's not like they can hire an attorney and go to court to settle a business dispute. They use the tools they have at hand) over half of the non-drug-related murders are domestic violence.

Maybe the killers are dorks, But I get the sense there is a lot of free-floating anger in Mormondom, that manifests in various ways. Provo's mask protests made national news. Ammon Bundy. Chad Daybell. You know the list of criminals, some pretty spectacular. I think there are more than enough cases of testosterone poisoning.

And yes, I remember stake basketball. Oy.

+Brother Of Jerry:
I hope you won't get upset this time, Brother Of Jerry, but I am going to reply to you.

Apparently, a huge chunk of murders are related to morals: in the sense of "He wronged me. I must make things right."

Examples:
1. He/She cheated on me. They shamed me. I am going to kill him/her and his/her lover.
2. They guy cut me off. Who does he think he is. Let me pull out my gun and I'll show him.
3. He raped me when I was a kid. The justice system sucks. I will handle this my own way.

"business disputes in the drug trade"

==I'm guessing a portion of those are morality related murders as well.

~~~~iceman9090

Good point Iceman

The non-dorks tend to leave.

Dorks? What an incredibly stupid statement.

What word would you have used?

I can picture the archetype you are referring to, I dated a few and married one. I see a similar type in most mainstream Christian churches as well, The slightly timid "good guy" who just doesn't have a spine. Church Inc makes them feel special,
Frankly, nothing wrong with that, We all want to feel special, loved, and "worthy".

What is really wrong is being told as a woman that I needed to marry one of these yahoos to be considered a worthy woman.

RMM

Yes, spineless "nice/good guys"

Don't drink from the well of toxic masculinity, hujo. It's not good for you.

masculinity is toxic until the titanic starts to sink

?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JshndjhUvwQ

Watch this video about toxic masculinity

The point is masculinity is toxic until theres a problem

I don't do YouTube unless it's a music video.

I'm asking *you* what *you* are trying to convey.

He is reminding us how masculine men stopped the Titanic from sinking.

He's parroting something he thinks is witty.

I'd like to hear him explain what he meant by the statement.

How is it beneficial to *men* to buy into that crap?

Listen, the point is masculinity is toxic until there's a crisis. I'm also not saying masculinity could've fixed the titanic. Do you understand what my point is?

Also, it seems to me you dislike masculinity. Is that true, and if so why?

Then why did you bring up the Titanic as evidence that masculinity is so useful? Were you being ironic?

yeah that was ironic.

This is what I'm trying to understand. I'd like to know what your definition of masculinity is.

I was too quick with the one-liner.

In our society, men and women are held to unattainable standards with respect to looks and behavior. There's a lot of focus on how these standards negatively affect girls and women, but they are also harmful to boys and men.

What is your definition of masculinity? Who is the all-American male? What happens if you don't fit the mold? Will you be okay with who you are?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2020 03:33PM by Beth.

masculinity is being a man, focusing on your purpose and building a better society. I use the analogy of a charging bull

What are the attributes of a masculine man?

Charging bulls are bred to be be aggressive. It makes for a good display in bullfighting as they are slowly and systemically slaughtered. They don't know why they charge. They just do.

You're smarter than that.

The analogy is being used more as they charge and get what they want. (extreme ambition) Not stupid neanderthals who blindly use brute force and wander aimlessly

This is a truly stupid thread.

I'm one of the people here who doesn't question your age.

Let's set aside the definition of a man business.

Ambition knows no gender, so let's set that aside, too.

About two years ago, your body was flooded with testosterone. You lit up like a roman candle. Your brain hasn't caught up yet. That is not meant to be an insult.

Your prefrontal cortex won't be fully developed until you're in your early to mid twenties. That's the part of your brain that, among other things, helps you judge risk and reward. Right now, that thing is a mess. I'm sure you know what a Darwin Award is. There's a reason most people who get one are young and don't have children: Their prefrontal cortexes don't say, "That's a stupidly dangerous thing to do, and you might die."

All I can say is that I hope you are exposed to a range of ideas and people as you grow. I also hope you seek out information and experiences outside of your comfort zone. I hope that you have conversations with the people you disparage. Real, meaningful conversations. But it's hard to have them if you have a closed mind.

You have prejudged many, many people. I think that's a shame. You have the opportunity to live a full life and not one where you shut people out because they do not comport with your ideas of manhood or whatever.

You're about two years into your testosterone ride. Slow your roll just a bit. Be curious. Know that it's okay to be wrong, and you're going to be wrong about half of the time.

Be gentle with yourself and with others. Good luck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2020 07:27PM by Beth.

Yup. When the Titanic started to sink the masculine men patched it up and ensured that all the passengers survived.

Let no one forget the importance of manly men as opposed to dorks.

Ever heard of the priesthood (I call it the leasthood)? These guys are twisted because tscc is twisted, in apostasy, and is off balance, by nature, by society, and by the spirit.

TSCC makes them that way and only takes them that way.

If it wanted them to be STRONG individuals, who THOUGHT for themselves, and who were WELL BALANCED, HIGH THINKING, CHARISMATIC, and FREE-WHEELED INDIVIDUALS, it wouldn't be MORMONISM.

But it wants men who WORSHIP (TSCC) and put TSCC before FAMILY, WORK, COMMUNITY...

It wants people who don't ask questions [PRAY PAY OBEY...].

Maybe this analogy will help. Think of it as an upside down pyramid. Most of the (big) people are at the top, with medium people in between, and the little people all at the bottom, controlling everything from underground (under the pews, collecting all the crumbs). They are the money masters, the takers, the bottom feeders.

It wants boys.

If it wanted MEN, it would LET THEM - and ENCOURAGE them to - GROW UP.

All it wants is a WALLET to open up and throw money at it. Not everybody will open up their wallet to this shit.

Exactly. They don't let them grow up because they'll recognize it's all bs.

I agree with Hujo, it's insightful to notice this trend, As Mayor Rocky Anderson said: there is a dangerous culture of Obedience and a deference to Seniority in Utah. The one's in charge were promoted because they were beta males, they adore elderly men. Real leaders (the alphas) that rise and change the world such as Lincoln, Hitler, Julius Caesar, Napoleon, they weren't men who just obeyed (uncle Tommed) and were willing to wait for a better world.

As for Soy Boys, I don't see many of them accept perhaps the metro sexuals in Salt Lake and Park City, the 20'something year old hipsters who ride scooters drinking lattes, with open toed shoes. But mormondom doesn't attract that category so much?

Nah, a "soy boy" is an effemenized man with low testosterone and high estrogen. They're called this because soy is correlated with estrogen.

You're on here hiding under the guise of being a put-upon teenager, and you're nothing of the sort. This is a ruse meant to draw the sympathies of the adults on the board who remember what it was like to be that age and trapped in Mormonism.

Meanwhile, you have been working to turn the discourse to underscore your incel thinking. The fact that you weren't immediately challenged on your premise nor your list of epithets above shows the subtlety of your success.


That you changed your username on your old posts to hujo2maga gives away your game. You may think you're clever, but you're not. You write like a 28-32 year old pretending to be a 14-16 year old.

Mind you, message boards like this are like honeytraps for people who want to pretend, and we've seen this garbage before. We're not all fooled by your charade.


So how about dropping your pretense? At least some posters are transparent about being a right-wing mouthpiece.

So just come out and say that you're a right-wing chaos actor. Because frankly, like certain other one-note posters, you're full of it and boring as hell.

Tyson



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2020 09:09AM by Tyson Dunn.

Probably because I had not considered your scenario much of a possibility, you’ve caught me by surprise, Tyson. It IS a possibility!

As with most attempts at being devious that don't seek money or prestige, I have a hard time understanding them. Still I know they exist. If this is one, thanks. If it isn't, it's still been instructive.

With anonymity anything is a possibility. But with a topic like this one Tyson's seems very plausible. I can't think of a young Mormon who would want to talk about this topic. It would take some age and experience to want to talk about male hierarchies. I was introduced to the Mormon variety starkly on my mission and wasn't a fan.

At any rate this poster could be a middle aged woman Relief Society President for all we know.

I can see why a typical teen wouldn't talk about this but I'm not a typical teen. Sure I like to have a good time, but I also learn about things that will benefit me in the future...

hujo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can see why a typical teen wouldn't talk about
> this but I'm not a typical teen.

Tyson outed you.

No teenager would ever say this. Why? Because they are a boy. A young man in his twenties would. Hero worshipping the past. A teenager of 15 wouldn't.

"Boys not being allowed to be boys is the main cause.

It's interesting that back in the 70s and 80s all the mormon guys were jocks."

And you probably already went on a mission back when you were actually a teenager. Unresolved issues.

Nah dude I'm a 15 year old. I see how you connected those, but you have to let go of your teen stereotypes. Think what you want, It's not like I'm gonna send a picture of myself or meet you in person to prove I'm a teen.

Elder Berry if you use search, under all the names, I think you will find it very instructive.

You are such a tease!

I will add, though, that my kids and their friends don’t know the word “dork.”

About the nickname, I was messing around and I couldn't find a way to change it back. Idk why you'd think I'm an imposter (go look at all my posts). I'm a 15 year old guy trapped in mormonism. Why would a 25 year old pretend he's younger?!

I don't understand the motivations of people trying to gaslight folks. I assume they get off on their sense of power.

I have folders (like Mitt Romney I suppose) of people I've identified as fakes and sock puppets. You'd be nothing special in that regard.

And I didn't say 25, you did. Thank you.

Tyson

I don't understand the motivations either. And you're right, you never said 25. I'm 10 years younger. I'm not gonna waste my time trying to convince you I'm not a 30 year old incel, just go look at any of my posts and make your own opinion.

I'd consider what lots wife said too

A distinct possibility. It's worth remembering, however, that there are posters on this site who seem like they have to be caricatures but are in fact the genuine article.

The surprise can work both ways.

You are too bright not to notice that Mormonism forces a double standard. The facade goes up and you get Superman/Clark Kent personality. What EOD said.

You are too bright to group Mormon men into one lump. They all got secret lives, like you.

What's the deal?

Each person has their own genetic make-up gifted from millions of ancestors. A simple attempt at training someone to be meek reinforces their ability to play meek when necessary but doesn't make them anything but what they really are down deep, which for most will emerge.

Raise a wild animal in captivity but don't be surprised when your little buddy suddenly takes your arm off. Suppression is reinforcement and most Mormons sooner or later find an outlet for what is seething underneath. Judgement of others makes a good release for them as they use it to throw you off their own scent.


Sadly, some people got a gene set that will keep them in Mormonism for life. Like my brother. His talent is Mormonism. He craved it like I craved being an artist. Which is my talent--couldn't stop it if I tried. Luckily I craved any truth at all. He likes to pick and choose.

The mormon who beat me almost to death is still a regular poster here so be very careful meeting up in real life with anyone. He went off and tried to kill me because I told him if he continued to refuse working he would have to make other arrangements and quit mooching off of me.

His step father was a marine during the brief time in america when you could put in 20 years and get full military retirement while seeing zero action or real danger.

My father was in the 6th Marine division during WWII and there is no comparison to him with the mealy mouthed nobody of a step father. Seriously I was shocked that such a low testosterone loser could even make it through Marine basic training.

Though he made a lot of money and also probably used the 5 children of the 1st father who was run off by the mormon church to pad his VA benefits his only real accomplishment was parenting 3 girls who whored their way into marriages with the architects of the largest health care fraud in the nation's history.

Even though dozens of health care providers have already gone to prison over this it's unlikely that any of this sleazy family will ever do time and the family refuses to see themselves as anything but the true victims.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2020 03:14PM by siobhan.

siobhan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The mormon who beat me almost to death is still a
> regular poster here so be very careful meeting up
> in real life with anyone.


Oh. My. God.

I am so sorry that happened to you, siobhan. ohmygod

Interesting observation. When I was growing up (back in the 70s & early 80s) most of the guys in my ward were jocks. Even those that were in the choir (church and school) skied and surfed. A lot of them sailed. Many of them were jocks at school. Football, baseball. My brother wasn't allowed to play football by my parents so he was a swimmer.

I wonder why this has changed.

It's due to masculinity being frowned upon by society. Boys not being allowed to be boys is the main cause.

It's interesting that back in the 70s and 80s all the mormon guys were jocks. I don't know a single tbm that's a stereotypical "jock"

A few things, kid:

1. The idea of "Alpha" and "Beta" males came from a study on pack structure of captive wolves that was later proven to be inaccurate for packs in the wild. The idea of "alpha" males is bullshit, despite what the mad-dog incels claim.

2. "Masculinity" is not frowned upon by society. Being an asshole, on the other hand, is. Being "manly" is not the same as acting like a sociopath who punches down.

3. I was one of those dorks. I hung out in the library more than the gym, I read "Frankenstein" every October in high school for fun, and I still left Mormonism. Why? Maybe because testosterone levels or the performance you think is "masculinity" has nothing to do with leaving Mormonism. I read the truth about it and left, no steroids or bench presses needed.

4. I was a nerd who left and I know jocks who're still believers. Not everything is like high school, kid.

That being said, there is something called "infantilization." It's where someone is treated as a child long after their brain has developed past childhood. It's a favorite tactic of narcissistic abusers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantilization#:~:text=Infantilization%20is%20the%20prolonged%20treatment,though%20they%20are%20a%20child.

Given how the Morg commands members to "be like a little child," the emphasis on obeying the cult, and that I've seen males and females act immature and insecure, infantilization is more accurate than the stereotypical "jerk jock" speak you described it with.

Always intelligent, always insightful, always compassionate: I'm a big fan.

Couldn't agree more Ookami.

You know, the more I read this "kid's" posts, the more I think he is not who/what he says he is.

Well I'm sorry you think that Hedi. I'm not sure how to convince you I am what I say I am, but I'll give it a try. It's as simple as I follow topics that older people would know about.

"Masculinity" is crying every time you speak in conference. "Masculinity" is using the phrase "tender mercies" over and over again. "Masculinity" is weeping every time you publicly talk about your "helpmeet" and "sweetheart."

Mormonism has weird metrics with which to measure ourselves.