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Posted by: behindcurtain ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 01:25AM

Joseph Smith may have taught things that are true. Other Church leaders may have also taught true things. Things don't cease being true just because a dishonest person teaches them.

Smith taught things that "might be true" as opposed to things he taught that are definitely not true. His claims about the BOM are definitely not true. But his teaching that men can become gods might be true. Smith put words in the BOM that were copied from the Bible. These words "might be true"; they are true if the Bible is true.

Even though Bernie Madoff was a con man, he may have taught people true and sound investment principles some of the time. It would have helped him to gain people's trust.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 01:30AM

Thanks. I was looking for an excuse to take up polygamy.

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Posted by: josephssmmyth ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 01:34AM

behindcurtain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joseph Smith may have taught things that are true.
> Other Church leaders may have also taught true
> things. Things don't cease being true just
> because a dishonest person teaches them.
>
> Smith taught things that "might be true" as
> opposed to things he taught that are definitely
> not true. His claims about the BOM are definitely
> not true. But his teaching that men can become
> gods might be true. Smith put words in the BOM
> that were copied from the Bible. These words
> "might be true"; they are true if the Bible is
> true.
>
> Even though Bernie Madoff was a con man, he may
> have taught people true and sound investment
> principles some of the time. It would have helped
> him to gain people's trust.

Naa.. that was the very most atheistic thing Joseph may have probably promoted. It pretty much all stems from one preacher in New H Pennsylvania where his baby is buried.

Do your homework..

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 04:15AM

A good confidence man tells the truth whenever possible.

Why? Because it's economical. The truth is easier to remember if you are ever challenged whereas lies are harder to keep straight. The best strategy is therefore to lie only when absolutely necessary.

The effect of that is to give the charlatan credibility with his marks and render them likely to believe the one or two or three big and important lies. Goebbels knew that, so too Hitler, and Orwell as well. Trump is the counter-example. He lies like rain falls in a hurricane, and other than the credulous few most people eventually catch on.

I'd put JS in the middle. By the 1840s his lies were catching up with him and he was losing many of his closest allies. But he nevertheless remained believable to most of his flock until the mob put an end to his scam. If he had survived that confrontation, the mounting demonstrable lies may well have destroyed the church before BY could raise the curtain on the second act.

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Posted by: josephssmmyth ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 06:56AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A good confidence man tells the truth whenever
> possible.
>
> Why? Because it's economical. The truth is
> easier to remember if you are ever challenged
> whereas lies are harder to keep straight. The
> best strategy is therefore to lie only when
> absolutely necessary.
>
> The effect of that is to give the charlatan
> credibility with his marks and render them likely
> to believe the one or two or three big and
> important lies. Goebbels knew that, so too
> Hitler, and Orwell as well. Trump is the
> counter-example. He lies like rain falls in a
> hurricane, and other than the credulous few most
> people eventually catch on.
>
> I'd put JS in the middle. By the 1840s his lies
> were catching up with him and he was losing many
> of his closest allies. But he nevertheless
> remained believable to most of his flock until the
> mob put an end to his scam. If he had survived
> that confrontation, the mounting demonstrable lies
> may well have destroyed the church before BY could
> raise the curtain on the second act.

Orange man bad is a lie we can remember as maybe a great example.

Joseph said two, yes more than one wifey my young followers and God is a good thing to become. He was a good celebrity by about this time and kept travelling to a different State when suddenly he flat out ran out of places to run. Hard to "fall up" when they're aren't any unsuspecting towns left to try and bamboozle anymore.

He was about ready to suffer his terminal mental illness like the Nashville RV bomber and go out with a bang.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: January 01, 2021 06:03PM

The number of “bamboozled” is amazing though. If a demagogue with his kind of inner world can garner that much support, it’s a symptom of a deep pathology in American society. I have friends who think Orange Julius is the best thing for America, to the point that he should use martial law to force another election. But it’s all bread and circuses with Trump as the clown. A brilliant clown, I must admit.

In the end, love wins. God wins. That’s the only possible outcome in the ascending Earth of post-2020. Those on the wrong side will lose. Their dark plans will not work, but let them try.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 01, 2021 06:14PM

> In the end, love wins. God wins.

I'm going to fix that statement by paraphrasing Maynard Keynes:

> In the end, we are all dead.

Which means all that matters is how we live, what we do, now. Because there is no judgment to be feared by the evil. What is important is that having recognized that political charlatans arise all the time and that if we don't struggle against their depredations, a lot of unnecessarily suffering will occur. You can measure that in terms of betrayed allies and the concomitant risk of future wars, economic pain inflicted by unbalanced policy, or hundreds of thousands of needless deaths.

What is morality? It is doing one's best to reduce suffering in the world now rather than shrugging your shoulders and saying "he'll get his due when God comes to town."

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 09:48AM

And in fact telling the truth not only sometimes but often is vital to the con artist. Even as a young Mormon I was taught that was how the Adversary worked. "Satan is so clever he can fool even the very elite," was said often from the pulpit.

Once you gain trust with obvious truths people are more likely to not fact check your agenda and you can get away with alot--for a while.

Important to assume no one is right all the time and also important to remember that everyone can be fooled. Well except for josephssmyth. He knows everything. Of course it helps that the semantic game being played is unintelligible gobbedly gook.

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Posted by: josephssmmyth ( )
Date: December 31, 2020 10:11AM

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And in fact telling the truth not only sometimes
> but often is vital to the con artist. Even as a
> young Mormon I was taught that was how the
> Adversary worked. "Satan is so clever he can fool
> even the very elite," was said often from the
> pulpit.
>
> Once you gain trust with obvious truths people are
> more likely to not fact check your agenda and you
> can get away with alot--for a while.
>
> Important to assume no one is right all the time
> and also important to remember that everyone can
> be fooled. Well except for josephssmyth. He
> knows everything. Of course it helps that the
> semantic game being played is unintelligible
> gobbedly gook.

Gobbly-Gooky me, I don't know that I'll wear any such tag too proudly because I still am aware how once the LDS blinders fall off, the insanely backed up thoughts can begin to flow free'er than the fireman hydrant valve.

It could be bradley might be our newest shining example of an awakening person out of mormo-ism, nobody knows.

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Posted by: cl2notloggedin ( )
Date: January 01, 2021 05:18PM

considering this statement (though I don't believe in Satan).

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: January 01, 2021 05:14PM

"Group: WE DON'T WANT A PRESIDENT THAT WALKS ON EGG SHELLS
Normal people on the street: Happy Holidays my friends
Group: THIS IS AN ATTACK ON CHRISTMAS !"

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: January 01, 2021 05:37PM

I've been wondering lately just how many people are grifters. There are numerous examples on various Reddit forums of people who don't mind lying to advance their own interests. Has there been an increase, or has there always been a number of them in circulation?

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: January 01, 2021 06:19PM

Bashing Joseph Smith is my favorite pastime, but let me say something in his defense. Sometimes lying is the art of telling the truth in a way that it will be accepted. Most of the time, if you tell people the unvarnished truth they either don’t believe it or they don’t understand its significance. You really have to spin a mythology to get through to people because they can’t get there on their own.

If we live in a world of illusion, which the yogis and other adepts can observe directly, then the task is to steer the illusion. People are born specifically to engage in the illusion. Otherwise, they would go somewhere else. So, this obsession with objective truth could be completely overblown.

The modern church is nothing like what Joseph Smith started. It’s nothing like it was 50 years ago. It seems to me that it had its time and place, but that time is over. It’s not a church anymore. It’s a tax shelter and a scam.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 01, 2021 06:44PM

There is so much that unnerves in this post.

You again confuse mythology for truth. If something were true, you wouldn't need to employ "the art of telling the truth in a way that it will be accepted." Facts and the truth need not be dressed in lies, and if you find yourself altering your proposition's suit jacket you'd do better dating another proposition.


----------------
"People are born specifically to engage in the illusion."

Illusion has contributed how much to the advance of civilization? Did it produce art, music, architecture, immunology, information technology? Or has it tried more often than not to destroy those things? Is "the illusion" of which you speak more important than truth? Than a morality that seeks not to divide but to unite?


---------------
"This obsession with objective truth could be completely overblown."

You are smarter than that.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: January 01, 2021 06:50PM

How is a lie different from a half-truth ?

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: January 05, 2021 07:17PM

Con artists present alternative truth.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: January 01, 2021 06:51PM

Actually LDS Inc is quite a lot like it was 50 years ago. Yeah, the priesthood ban based on race (but not gender) is gone, and there are no more roadshows, but the basic system of governance, meeting structure, financial structure, and lots of other things have not changed much at all.

If an adult from 50 years ago were suddenly transported to a contemporary ward, they would have no trouble figuring out that it was in fact an LDS ward. The cheerios on the carpet would give it away if nothing else. :)

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Posted by: Bobby dole ( )
Date: January 01, 2021 06:58PM

I think you're right in that.

Because he combed through the Bible doing his JST and was able to visit the other religions and Cherry pick things, he was able to pick out a bunch of things that other religions got wrong.

In that aspect it was like a second reformation.

However, he mixed so much garbage with it , it taints everything .


The Bernie Madoff example works... Very knowledable, could pick up a lot of good for him, but if you actually invest with him he's just stealing your money.

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Posted by: ookami ( )
Date: January 01, 2021 11:52PM

"A truth that's told with bad intent beats all the lies you can invent." -William Blake.

Con artists make their living by exploiting people. If they lied about everything, they would be found out faster. So, they tend to mix a few truths in with the BS. Because con artists aren't pathological liars, they're manipulators who will say anything, true or false, to exploit folks.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 02, 2021 03:01AM

Ah, darn it! I just ordered my Atheist Cube--at a discount because I am a card-carrying member of AARA as well as the new Hampshire Anarcho-syndicalist League (NHASL), which is a great organization if you can tolerate the incessant local chapter meetings and the vegetarian snacks.

Maybe we can swap cubes at some point just to see how the other half lives?

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: January 05, 2021 06:40PM

The thing about running a long con is you have to have a little bit of truth to keep the marks happy

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