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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 03, 2021 01:25PM

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/01/the-most-american-religion/617263/

A former Sunday School student of mine posted this on FB,
“ I found this article really thought-provoking, but I'm worried about how it might be interpreted.

His basic idea is that Mormons have spent the last 130 years or so chasing after a wholesome, likeable, all-American, Norman Rockwell-esque identity. Just as we'd pretty much arrived, American culture started to really shift, and that ideal isn't working as well anymore.

The interpretation that I'm worried about is that people will see this as evidence of some sort of moral decay in broader American society, and maintain that we're the only people left who believe in Traditional Values. I don't think that's what's happening here.

The wholesome all-American-ness came packaged with other things -- white supremacy, capitalism, militarism -- that don't fit well with our founding vision. I hope that a more pluralistic American context will give us the space to question some of what we'd been striving for.”

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Posted by: josephssmmyth ( )
Date: January 03, 2021 01:27PM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/
> 01/the-most-american-religion/617263/
>
> A former Sunday School student of mine posted this
> on FB,
> “ I found this article really thought-provoking,
> but I'm worried about how it might be
> interpreted.
>
> His basic idea is that Mormons have spent the last
> 130 years or so chasing after a wholesome,
> likeable, all-American, Norman Rockwell-esque
> identity. Just as we'd pretty much arrived,
> American culture started to really shift, and that
> ideal isn't working as well anymore.
>
> The interpretation that I'm worried about is that
> people will see this as evidence of some sort of
> moral decay in broader American society, and
> maintain that we're the only people left who
> believe in Traditional Values. I don't think
> that's what's happening here.
>
> The wholesome all-American-ness came packaged with
> other things -- white supremacy, capitalism,
> militarism -- that don't fit well with our
> founding vision. I hope that a more pluralistic
> American context will give us the space to
> question some of what we'd been striving for.”

Reprint?
Old story..

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: January 03, 2021 01:35PM

Are you aware that you don't have to quote the entire post for a simple general response?

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Posted by: josephssmmyth ( )
Date: January 03, 2021 01:39PM

Sometimes I do it either way, Schrodings cat is touchy sometimes so covering all bases.. ha haa

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 03, 2021 03:05PM

josephssmmyth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> Reprint?
> Old story..

It doesn’t say it is a reprint.
Published this week.
Regardless, it is ironic AF that Mormons supported Trump more than any other demographic, (besides White Supremacists, I mean “Christians” in name only) while Super Mormon Romney is Trumps biggest Nemesis in Congress, besides the Libs.
UT is the most Republican state, and Trump won there, by far, yet its representative, Mitt Romney, is his biggest foe.
Is Romney perhaps eyeing a 2024 challenge to Trump?
Apparently.
And depending upon a lot of things in next 4 yrs, he might have a good shot with disaffected Trump supporters who don’t like losers.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 05, 2021 02:45PM

josephssmmyth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2350687
> ,2351192#msg-2351192

I forgot it was brought up before and I responded to it, but the point of this post was not the article itself, but a the response of a thoughtful Mormon former student of mine.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: January 03, 2021 02:05PM

“other things -- white supremacy, capitalism, militarism -- that don't fit well with our founding vision.”

I thought that was the founding vision. Mormonism is the most jingoistic religion.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 05, 2021 05:10AM

"White supremacy" wasn't part of the Founders' vision for the United States?

They wrote white supremacy into the constitution. Recall that a black person was only worth 3/5 of a white person. The electoral college, designed to advantage states with slower population growth (the South), and the states' rights provision giving slave states the power to maintain their own domestic institutions, were likewise designed to protect, or allow the protection of, human slavery.

Some or all of the Founders may have hoped that barbaric institution would wither away sooner rather than later, but they not only "envisaged" but also enshrined slavery.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 05, 2021 07:50PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "White supremacy" wasn't part of the Founders'
> vision for the United States?
>
> They wrote white supremacy into the constitution.
> Recall that a black person was only worth 3/5 of a
> white person.

What's ironic is that now here it is 245 years later and a black household's net worth is only 10% of White household's which is only being exacerbated by Pandemic.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/02/27/examining-the-black-white-wealth-gap/

meanwhile, many Ivy League academics argue things have never been better in America.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/27/business/mind-meld-bill-gates-steven-pinker.html

(NYT Interviewer): Steven’s new book tells us we’re living longer, with greater wealth, peace and equality, and less racism and sexism. It’s so counterintuitive to the feeling in the air. What’s the value in correcting that? Will it change behavior?

Bill Gates: "Absolutely. The present techniques we use as a society — law, democracy, some degree of progressive taxation — as imperfect as they are, are working by lots of key measures. So, when you consider a radical change, like “Hey, let’s tear up the global trade agreements; they’re a disaster,” you’re more likely to implement it if you think things are getting worse. “Let’s tear up the treaties. Let’s try a nondemocratic approach.” Your willingness to go off the current path is much, much higher. But you can hardly be serious about government — or society as a whole — unless you say: What are the measures that count, and how are we doing on those measures?"

Stephen Pinker: There’s a tendency in journalism and political debates to assume that it’s easy to achieve a perfect society: “Good people would do that.” The fact that we don’t means that evil people must be running the system: “Let’s throw them out and find nobler ones.” This leads to empowering charismatic despots and destroying institutions that have done a lot of good. But we have no right to expect perfection. We should appreciate how much better off we are and try to improve our institutions guided by what works and what doesn’t. I’m sure Bill gets this all the time: “Why throw money at the developing world? They’re just going to have more babies and be just as poor.”

BG “It’s always been bad, always will be bad.”

SP It’s just not true.

PG But can’t overstating problems energize us in terms of solving them?

BG There’s a paradox in letting yourself be very, very upset about what remains to be done. What indicator improves even faster than reduction in violence? Our distaste for violence. We’re more upset about it today. If I see someone spanking a kid — I’m stealing from Steven’s book — I might get up and say: “Hey, wait a minute!” Forty years ago, it might have been more like: “Do you want to borrow my belt?” There are parts of the world that are still like 40 years ago. But to read Steven’s book and think it says, “Don’t worry, be happy,” is to misread it. Because seeing the world through the eyes of that poor kid ideally wants to make you give some money, even though there are many fewer such kids than 50 years ago.

SP You can say the same fact two ways. Extreme global poverty has been reduced from 90 percent 200 years ago to 10 percent today. That’s great! Or you can say: More than 700 million people in the world live in extreme poverty today. They’re the same fact, and you have to be able to describe them to yourself both ways.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2021 08:00PM by schrodingerscat.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 03, 2021 03:15PM

Mormonism- The Most Trumpian Religion.
Why do the vast majority of Mormons believe Trumps lies?
#1. Delusional and dangerous belief that these really are the “Latter Days” and God is leading us to a great apocalypse that only ends well for Mormons!
#2. God chose Trump to fulfill His apocalyptic prophecies.
#3. The Constitution really is hanging by a thread
#4. An ”Elder of Zion” really will be the hero to save the promised land from destruction, and establish Zion, with him as victorious leader in Mormon totalitarian communist dictatorship.

Which is where Handmaid’s Tale picks up.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: January 03, 2021 03:40PM

This is where having a nation of overweight couch potatoes is a blessing in disguise. They may be too fat to fight.

Hopefully, Trump is the disease that provokes a serious immune response in the body politic.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 03, 2021 03:35PM

I responded with this,

“ Mormonism, the most Trumpian (white supremacist) of religions.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/how-the-faithful-voted-a-preliminary-2016-analysis/?amp=1

Isn’t it ironic no demographic supports Trump more than MORMONS (except white supremacists) yet tRump has no greater foe in the Senate than Romney, the Mormon’s Great White Hope 8yrs ago?”

This is a kid who was on a full ride scholarship to Germany’s version of MIT, to study nanophysics in German, at 15.
The questions he’d ask me in class blew my mind and eventually caused me to really question my faith. Eventually the only way I could resolve the blatant racism in Mormon scriptures was to conclude Joseph’s Myth was a fraud.
This kid is now a Dr, tenured professor in extra terrestrial life forms at a major research university. His doctorate thesis on spider webs made him famous.
He is a lot smarter than me and has figured out a way to question the faith he inherited, but not reject it.
I couldn’t . Once I concluded it was an abusive fraud nothing else about it mattered. I could no longer in good conscience allow my children to be brainwashed and abused by this fraudulent, racist, sexist, homophobic CULT.

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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: January 03, 2021 04:04PM

I mean, by their fruits.
Mormons got Americana in spades.

The most dangerous human emotion is righteousness.
Why, with righteousness, I can annihilate a village and all living thing therein, and feel fine about myself.

Just doing the Lords work.

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Posted by: praydude ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 02:11PM

Your comment is chilling. Perhaps I'm reacting that way to it because I know i've felt that way as a member of the cult. It wouldn't matter if people died as long as god's will was being fulfilled. Not in my zealous mormon mind anyway.

I've felt that along with righteousness comes certainty. Once one "knows" for certain, all of the thinking has been done and there will be no more growth. Why change at all or revisit your beliefs if you know for certain?

To be certain means you've stopped growing.

Just my 2 cents.

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Posted by: praydude ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 02:14PM

I've read the article and I feel that this author has glossed over a lot of wrongs about the cult. No mention of the points brought up in the Nauvoo Expositor...human trafficking, sexual exploitation and abuse, corruption...none of those points were examined.

To me this article is a fluff piece made to make mormons look more normal than they are. Sort of like a pseudo-critical look at the mormon cult.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 04, 2021 03:16PM

praydude Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've read the article and
> I feel that this author
> has glossed over a lot of
> wrongs about the cult.
> No mention of the points
> brought up in the Nauvoo
> Expositor, human trafficking,
> sexual exploitation and
> abuse, corruption...none of
> those points were > examined.
>
> To me this article is a
> fluff piece made to make
> mormons look more normal
> than they are. Sort of
> like a pseudo-critical
> look at the mormon cult.


I can't assert just how correct my analysis might be, but people in the know are not going to criticize, because any 'errors' would exist because the people involved deviated from 'normalcy'.

In 2010, The Atlantic posted its first yearly profit in ten years. In my casual research, I couldn't find current figures. But the odds are that profitability is one of their goals. They want to make money!

Their product is 'news & information'. So they make money providing that to those willing to pay for it. So suppose the Church of Scientology said to The Atlantic, "I'll pay you money to publish a multi-page ad, but you make it look like editorial content, so people think it's an article written by The Atlantic, backed by The Atlantic's vaunted reputation for accurate journalism! Whaddaya say?!"

Big <SIGH>. Someone with sufficient clout said, "gimme the money!" Of course, they got called on it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2013/01/15/the-atlantics-scientology-problem-start-to-finish/

My point is that money is important. And so are "good" articles.

So someone decides, 'Let's do a big story on mormons!' And she either has the clout to authorize it or gets the necessary backing. And someone says, "Hey, we gotz us a mormon writer on staff! We'll have him pretend to be in charge, and that way we'll be able to interview more people, using the right words, than a competitor using a Catholic writer!"

Everyone agrees that's a brilliant idea, and they break for a 2.75-hour lunch but log it as part of their editorial meeting. What a brutal day at the office!

Then someone broached the idea of scoring an interview with the head dude, Dr. Rusty Scalpel! High fives for thinking of that! So the first phone call is made and things work their way up the ladder.

Now remember, the church has a lot of savvy people in its organization, tasked with putting the church first. So as day follows night a certain impasse will occur: Control of how the prophet is featured. It's a power struggle because each side has power, but each side also has needs. Time to play 'see-saw'.

So, based on your observations, it is logical that The Atlantic wanted the Dr. Rusty interview included, and gave some, or total, editorial control to the church. The Atlantic ceded to the church the power to say, "take out whatever we don't like, including, "Nauvoo Expositor...human trafficking, sexual exploitation and abuse, corruption". But The Atlantic knew that the church wanted exposure, so they came back with, "We'll spike the whole story if we can't include 'this'. See-saw.

That's my opinion, and I prayed about it and took two aspirins and was fine in the morning.


Some people, including myself, will do just about anything for money. Churches and businesses? ...likely the same.



Cynicism is an ugly thing...

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Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: January 05, 2021 12:56PM

Cynicism may be ugly, but it's often accurate.

I agree and made essentially the same observation in this other thread about the same article:

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2350687,2350743#msg-2350743



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2021 12:57PM by Gordon B. Stinky.

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Posted by: moremany ( )
Date: January 05, 2021 04:48AM

It's pretty aweful, vague, bouncy, and is mainly about the three
stooges - the writer of the story, Mittens, and the Old profit - and their (pretty good) 'church'.

It DOES NOTHING to explain HOW Mormonism is "The Most American Religion", or WHY they were persecuted by "mobs", what Joe did in Ohio, or that JS ordered The N.E. to be destroyed.

NOTHING about anything, really.

Dude just wants to feel good about himself, and his CULTure.

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Posted by: josephssmmyth ( )
Date: January 05, 2021 03:49AM

EOD, maybe the situationally aware realize more possibility that their's is the conflicted feelings of simply trusting The Atlantic?
Only rising to rapid Internet success for the trumpted up trash they try and type together?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 05, 2021 10:26AM

Hahahaha!

Takes one to know one!

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Posted by: josephssmmyth ( )
Date: January 05, 2021 02:11PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hahahaha!
>
> Takes one to know one!

The Atlantic isn't afraid to get all tabloid bred and muttered with almost any sensationalism brewing out there and right now Romney's never able to just shut his trap. Perfect fodder for a tabloid.

Don't be like either one.

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: January 05, 2021 10:05AM

I found two paragraphs particularly intriguing:

"According to one survey, Latter-day Saints are more than twice as likely as white evangelicals to say they welcome increased immigration to the United States. When Donald Trump called for a ban on Muslim immigration, the Church, hearing an eerie historical echo, issued a blistering condemnation."

this he says is molded on their own history of persecution. But I don't think it's really true... There continues to be a cataclysmic divide in the city. It's near impossible for folks to make across I15 to the East side. (As said in the main issue debated in the Mayoral race of 2020). It's hard to get a home up on the bench, especially for immigrants working in retail etc.

The other paragraph that I found interesting was this one:
"It has the lowest income inequality in the country, and ranks near the top for upward mobility. The relative lack of racial diversity no doubt helps skew these metrics—structural racism doesn’t take the same toll in a state that is 78 percent white."
I rather wonder how these problems could be solved? Places like detroit and baltimore and S. California that are very diverse with a low white population seem to be in the biggest trouble. I don't know... There doesn't seem to be any answers, and the Mormons don't seem to know what to do either. They give lip service to welcoming poor people, that's about it.

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Posted by: josephssmmyth ( )
Date: January 05, 2021 02:12PM

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I found two paragraphs particularly intriguing:
>
> "According to one survey, Latter-day Saints are
> more than twice as likely as white evangelicals to
> say they welcome increased immigration to the
> United States. When Donald Trump called for a ban
> on Muslim immigration, the Church, hearing an
> eerie historical echo, issued a blistering
> condemnation."
>
> this he says is molded on their own history of
> persecution. But I don't think it's really true...
> There continues to be a cataclysmic divide in the
> city. It's near impossible for folks to make
> across I15 to the East side. (As said in the main
> issue debated in the Mayoral race of 2020). It's
> hard to get a home up on the bench, especially for
> immigrants working in retail etc.
>
> The other paragraph that I found interesting was
> this one:
> "It has the lowest income inequality in the
> country, and ranks near the top for upward
> mobility. The relative lack of racial diversity no
> doubt helps skew these metrics—structural racism
> doesn’t take the same toll in a state that is 78
> percent white."
> I rather wonder how these problems could be
> solved? Places like detroit and baltimore and S.
> California that are very diverse with a low white
> population seem to be in the biggest trouble. I
> don't know... There doesn't seem to be any
> answers, and the Mormons don't seem to know what
> to do either. They give lip service to welcoming
> poor people, that's about it.

Third time it's been here..

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2350687,2351192#msg-2351192

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