Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: Cold-Dodger ( )
Date: January 07, 2021 12:20PM

If Captain Moroni were real and alive today, he would have stormed the Capitol to evict the people who stormed the Capitol today, not to join them. There is footage of a Mormon man waiving a white flag with the title of liberty written thereon at the incident yesterday. “In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children.” (Alma 46:12)

I realize that since I’ve left the church my opinion will be discarded out of hand by the people who need to hear it most, but I have to say as one who grew up Mormon and took it all seriously, seeing a Mormon flying the title of liberty at the incident yesterday is a perversion of that sacred symbol. Captain Moroni would have marched on Washington to evict the people who seized the Capitol, not to join them.

In Alma chapter 46, there was a man called Amalickiah. “And Amalickiah was desirous to be a king; and those people who were wroth were also desirous that he should be their king ; and they were the greater part of the lower judges of the land, and they were seeking power. And they had been led away by the flatteries of Amalickiah, that if they would support him and establish him to be their king that he would make them rulers over the people.” (Alma 46:4-5)

It was to fight this dangerous man and his deluded followers who were seeking to overturn the Nephite constitutional system of government with a cult devotion to a single man and his version of reality that Moroni rent his coat and wrote the title of liberty upon it.

The Nephite nation-state is akin to America in many ways. Clearly the book intends the history of the Nephites and how they eventually fell to be an allegory for the United States. The Book of Mormon says again and again that if we turn from God and Jesus, we will eventually be destroyed. But it does not prescribe theocracy to keep this from happening. Instead, it channels an early 19th century Christian version of American patriotism to constitutional government and the Bill of Rights that it provides. The Nephites had a crude First Amendment, if you will. Obviously they didn’t call it that, but in Alma chapter 30, it states that the law could have no hold on such an one as Korihor, an atheist who it says was seeking to destroy the church and promote hedonism, just for preaching his words because there was freedom of belief throughout all the land. They would eventually bind him anyway, but they were infringing on his guaranteed civil liberties as they did so. If they were true to their own political values, they would have had to let him preach as long as he didn’t break the law in deed “for there was no law against a man’s belief.” (Alma 30:11) The Book of Mormon prophecies destruction when the day finally comes that the Christian religion deteriorates among the Nephites, but there was to be no coercion of men’s souls to make them “choose the right.” The last righteous king of the Nephites set up a system of judges that answered to the voice of the people, a constitutional system that guaranteed certain liberties for all men, “that this land may be a land of liberty, and every man may enjoy his rights and privileges alike...that the burden [of keeping the people in the right way] should come upon all the people [instead of their king and/or other leaders], that every man might bear his part... that every man should have an equal chance throughout all the land; yea, and every man expressed a willingness to answer for his own sins.” (Mosiah 29: 32-38)

I have written in the margins of my copy of the Book of Mormon a note comparing chapter 46 in Alma about the title of liberty to the war in heaven. There were two sides in the war in heaven, the side that opposed the liberty necessary for man to make choices and act for himself and the side who defended that liberty because it was God’s plan for man to choose his own fate. Captain Moroni may be likened unto the premortal Jesus who raised some version of the title of liberty in the life before and drew all the elect from the four quarters of heaven to his banner to fight for their God and the liberty he wanted for his children. People came out of the woodwork happily tending their garments and excited for a chance to prove their worthiness to God in an environment where they were not compelled to do such. No one who loves these stories doesn’t want to be on that side.

Thus we see the profanity and corruption of these symbols and these allegories when they are used in an an attempt to intimidate the legislative body that represents the will of the people in order to keep them from seating a duly elected leader as is their duty to perform. To profane a symbol means to turn it on its head, to use it for the opposite of which it was intended when it was told and for the opposite reasons of which it became sacred in the first place. To corrupt a symbol is to render it meaningless by using it for other purposes and to have other meanings that compete with and eventually replace the original. To keep the symbol sacred means to set it apart in such a way that these things cannot happen. The title of liberty, while a symbol of Christian virtue against the forces that would destroy it, is specifically a call to Christians to uphold a civic duty to oppose the enemies of a free society. Those who hold different views and who, according to your beliefs, may cause our eventual downfall with their views are not the enemy here. A man is free to believe what he wants and to act according to his conscience, because the law of the land guarantees us that right as long as we defend it from Kingmen or from other forces that would subvert the liberty and constitutional order of the land for power and lust.

That’s all this insurrection yesterday was: a bunch of Kingmen breaking and entering the Capitol to seat Amalikiah on the judgement seat for another term to satiate his ego despite having been told by a vote of the people to give it to another. This profanes the title of liberty. This also corrupts the title of liberty, for now it associated with all the other crazy nonsense that was seen and heard on that day.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: josephssmmyth ( )
Date: January 07, 2021 12:29PM

I'll check scripture Q-anon (46:13)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: stillanon ( )
Date: January 07, 2021 01:07PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: January 07, 2021 10:57PM

Delete that trailing ‘i’ and you have it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 07, 2021 02:07PM

I think you might be perceiving The American Government wrongly in capturing The Book of Mormon's ideals to compare with it.


I know this is a strange view.

"Captain Moroni may be likened unto the premortal Jesus who raised some version of the title of liberty in the life before and drew all the elect from the four quarters of heaven to his banner to fight for their God and the liberty he wanted for his children."

Jesus was not a guy to condemn his political enemies for not loving liberty.

Mormonism is a theocracy. It was setup as one. The Book of Mormon went from benevolent kings to judges because people wanted to sin. It is a theocratical fealty inside a constitutional polis that was retroactively through amendments a lover of liberty. It was setup as liberty from a king. The Book of Mormon was written in the same vein - no benevolent religious king so start piece of paper to be king.

If Captain Moroni were real and alive today, he would have stormed the Capitol to evict the people in the Capitol today, not to join them. And a religiously benevolent king would be the most secure way to ensure God got what he wanted.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: josephssmmyth ( )
Date: January 07, 2021 02:19PM

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you might be perceiving The American
> Government wrongly in capturing The Book of
> Mormon's ideals to compare with it.
>
>
> I know this is a strange view.
>
> "Captain Moroni may be likened unto the premortal
> Jesus who raised some version of the title of
> liberty in the life before and drew all the elect
> from the four quarters of heaven to his banner to
> fight for their God and the liberty he wanted for
> his children."
>
> Jesus was not a guy to condemn his political
> enemies for not loving liberty.
>
> Mormonism is a theocracy. It was setup as one. The
> Book of Mormon went from benevolent kings to
> judges because people wanted to sin. It is a
> theocratical fealty inside a constitutional polis
> that was retroactively through amendments a lover
> of liberty. It was setup as liberty from a king.
> The Book of Mormon was written in the same vein -
> no benevolent religious king so start piece of
> paper to be king.
>
> If Captain Moroni were real and alive today, he
> would have stormed the Capitol to evict the people
> in the Capitol today, not to join them. And a
> religiously benevolent king would be the most
> secure way to ensure God got what he wanted.

Careful there the Capital rulers do not occupy the Capitol, easily crisscrossed all of the time.


https://www.dictionary.com/e/capital-vs-capitol/

No heh, this time..
GoAheadAddIfNecessary

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 07, 2021 02:33PM

I fear If Captain Moroni were real and alive today, he would have stormed the Mormon capital to evict the people with the Mormon capital today, not to join them but replace them.

Jesus on the other hand...

I fear If Jesus were real and alive today, he would have stormed the Mormon capital to evict the people with the Mormon capital today and use that capital to convert the temples into places of animal sacrifice as well as rewrite The Word of Wisdom.

He would have no thoughts on polygamy and would abolish temple sealings. His Mormon prophets would all get pink slips and poor Mormons would get help without having to pay it back or volunteer their time and talents to get it.

The widows mite would stand for something other than Hinckley's something. I don't know what that guy actually stood for...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: josephssmmyth ( )
Date: January 07, 2021 02:41PM

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I fear If Captain Moroni were real and alive
> today, he would have stormed the Mormon capital to
> evict the people with the Mormon capital today,
> not to join them but replace them.
>
> Jesus on the other hand...
>
> I fear If Jesus were real and alive today, he
> would have stormed the Mormon capital to evict the
> people with the Mormon capital today and use that
> capital to convert the temples into places of
> animal sacrifice as well as rewrite The Word of
> Wisdom.
>
> He would have no thoughts on polygamy and would
> abolish temple sealings. His Mormon prophets would
> all get pink slips and poor Mormons would get help
> without having to pay it back or volunteer their
> time and talents to get it.
> The widows mite would stand for something other
> than Hinckley's something. I don't know what that
> guy actually stood for...

Jesus stood for? Naww.. you're jesting! Hinkle is tinkle.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Cold-Dodger ( )
Date: January 07, 2021 10:23PM

Ya, Mormonism no make no sense. Not saying it does or that it should.

But current events have had me thinking that those of us with more analytical minds take something away from those who stay behind when we leave —- the opportunity to be talked down by a trusted friend from a crazy position to a slightly less crazy position. Cuz after we leave, there’s all these walls that go up and they won’t take criticism from us anymore and maybe this is what happens, this inability to agree on basic reality.

So if I could turn my TBM mind back on for just a moment and if all the guys in my local elder’s quorum still admired by 2 cents, this is maybe something I would have shared.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Cold-Dodger ( )
Date: January 07, 2021 10:24PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Cold-Dodger ( )
Date: January 07, 2021 10:35PM

Or maybe I’m just having a crazy resurgence of my old Mormon guilt complex among other thoughts as I see the types of people that I once would have sat with and called brothers every Sunday assault the fucking Congress in the name of some bullshit similar to something my family believes that I can’t talk them down from. Christ, I feel so powerless.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2021 10:43PM by Cold-Dodger.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: January 07, 2021 11:26PM

In their minds, they were saving America from the Red Menace. They think they are the good guys. To them, the CCP now rules the world and liberty is as good as dead. Our tax dollars spent like “Brewster’s Millions” on the most powerful military on the planet have been all for nothing because we are now owned.

But weren’t you already owned? Aren’t you already a wage slave? A change of overlords might be an improvement. At least they aren’t Mormons.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 08, 2021 10:31AM

Cold-Dodger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Christ, I feel
> so powerless.

That is why the Capitol was stormed. It isn't religion that has died but God. Nietzsche was the true prophet of the 19th Century. We can all dispense with one true God and follow something or nothing hopefully without too much political backlash. In the dying embers of Trump's last days lie the hopes of a storied past that really wasn't worth celebrating as much as it was. Nietzsche worshipped the Golden Age of Greece. Trump worships the Gilded Age.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: January 07, 2021 11:09PM

Captain Moroni is a made up character in a made up story that sprung from the mind of a guy in the upstate NY restorationist movement of the 1820s. You might as well be analyzing Cyclops from X-Men.

Yesterday’s surreal events belong in a Hollywood movie, not real life. Alas, not a single super hero showed up. So the real question is, “Where was the Spandex?”

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 08, 2021 09:20AM

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Captain Moroni is a made up character in a made up
> story that sprung from the mind of a guy in the
> upstate NY restorationist movement of the 1820s.
> You might as well be analyzing Cyclops from
> X-Men.
>
> Yesterday’s surreal events belong in a Hollywood
> movie, not real life. Alas, not a single super
> hero showed up. So the real question is, “Where
> was the Spandex?”

What about the horned wolf tattooed QAnon dude?
He’s the superhero of QAnon Incels everywhere!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: josephssmmyth ( )
Date: January 08, 2021 10:24AM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bradley Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Captain Moroni is a made up character in a made
> up story that sprung from the mind of a guy in the
> > upstate NY restorationist movement of the 1820s.
> > You might as well be analyzing Cyclops from
> > X-Men.
> >
> > Yesterday’s surreal events belong in a Hollywood
> > movie, not real life. Alas, not a single super
> > hero showed up. So the real question is, “Where was the Spandex?”
>
> What about the horned wolf tattooed QAnon dude?
> He’s the superhero of QAnon Incels everywhere!

That Monster Drink dragon mix vaping nut infiltrating a family event crowd?
He actually would look okay in spandex.


President Donald J. Trump wouldn't do well in a stretchy superman suit.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 08, 2021 10:33AM

I'm getting an ageism homoerotic vibe with that post.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 08, 2021 04:55PM

Insightful--in a disturbing way.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 ********         **  **     **  **    **  **    ** 
 **     **        **  **     **  **   **   **   **  
 **     **        **  **     **  **  **    **  **   
 **     **        **  **     **  *****     *****    
 **     **  **    **  **     **  **  **    **  **   
 **     **  **    **  **     **  **   **   **   **  
 ********    ******    *******   **    **  **    **