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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 12:21AM

I'm a bit surprised by this admission by the MORmON Crutch PR Department, which is apparently finally resigned to the fact that their so-called "PRofits" and founders may have been fallible after all, and maybe just a wee bit racist....

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/02/18/latest-mormon-land-was/

"The best explanation for the now-discarded policy that prevented Black members from entering the priesthood or temples for more than a century may also be the simplest.
It was an earthly mistake, not a heavenly mandate.
So argues historian Jonathan Stapley in a recent By Common Consent blog post.
“It is worth noting that just 20 years ago, the idea that the ban was mistaken was outside normative belief in the church,” Stapley writes. “Several things have changed in the intervening years, and now many prominent voices among the Saints express belief in a mistaken restriction.”
For starters, the church has repeatedly and emphatically disavowed past explanations — such as black skin being a sign of “divine disfavor, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life.”

In addition, top Latter-day Saint authorities themselves have acknowledged that their predecessors, at times, “simply made mistakes” — from apostle Dieter F. Uchtdorf in a 2013 General Conference address to Russell M. Nelson in his 2018 debut news conference as church president in which he asked members to “give your leaders a little leeway to make mistakes.”
Stapley disputes various scriptural references that members sometimes use to justify the 1852-1978 priesthood ban as a divine decree, saying that they “perpetuate damage to the Body of Christ, and contribute to a loss of faith among our people.”
“If you are going to assert a belief that the temple and priesthood restriction was the will of the Lord, you must also assert, per recent directives, that church leaders were simultaneously completely wrong about it and taught false and damaging ideas to the church for generations,” he writes. “Such a position necessarily undermines the confidence in the church’s ecclesiastical governance — the reason for a belief that the restriction was God’s will in the first place.”
Instead, Stapley urges reluctant members to acknowledge the error.
“I recognize that many people in the church grew up being taught that God directed the temple and priesthood restriction, he concludes. “Changing beliefs can be hard. I believe that in this case it is worth it. I believe that changing here not only prevents damage to faith, it increases faith.”

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 12:49AM

You believe that the Mormon church PR department is apparently going on the record as being accepting of the ‘fact’ that the Blacks-are-cursed doctrine was an “oops, I did it again” by BY and not divine revelation?

I don't think that's the gist of the article.

But we all know I can't see straight, cuz my eyes are brown. Maybe someone will help one of us be clear on the issue? I'll take all the help I can get.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 01:18AM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You believe that the Mormon church PR department
> is apparently going on the record as being
> accepting of the ‘fact’ that the
> Blacks-are-cursed doctrine was an “oops, I did
> it again” by BY and not divine revelation?
>
> I don't think that's the gist of the article.
>
> But we all know I can't see straight, cuz my eyes
> are brown. Maybe someone will help one of us be
> clear on the issue? I'll take all the help I can
> get.

You're the one who told me that SLTrib's Mormonland is written by the CULT's PR Department, which would explain the ass kissing fake "Journalism".

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 01:29AM

You are correct. Stapley has no official connection to LD$, Inc. PR department or the church history department.

https://www.amazon.com/Jonathan-Stapley/e/B07CHXM2L6%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share

"Jonathan Stapley is an award-winning historian and scientist. An active participant in the field of Mormon Studies, he is also the Chief Technology Officer for a bio-renewables company."


He is an independent historian so the church can renounce anything he says if necessary'

https://www.fromthedesk.org/10-questions-jonathan-stapley/

The Tribune's Mormonland is not from TSCC.
From the bottom of the link
"Mormon Land is a weekly newsletter written by David Noyce and Peggy Fletcher Stack?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 03:07AM

Well, just look at me be human and make a mistake!

I just may do it again, soon!

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 01:17AM

I believe it's also accurate that African women - who didn't hold the PH from Brigham's time forward at least - weren't (at least to our belief) allowed in the temple;

Perhaps if BY had Black African women 'sealed to him as servants' (non-sexual relationships?) they MIGHT have (secretly) entered, but this subject is highly undocumented, highly unknown (AFAIK).

I also believe that (non-african) women were discouraged from attending until/unless they went to be married/sealed, so there's that too.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 01:24AM


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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 01:33AM

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe it's also accurate that African women -
> who didn't hold the PH from Brigham's time forward
> at least - weren't (at least to our belief)
> allowed in the temple;

Exactly, which is another 'checkmate question' for Mormons trying to 'reactivate' you, "Why did Mormons deny black women entry into the temple prior to 1978, when women don't need the priesthood to get into a temple and never did?"

I've asked Mormon missionaries this question a bunch of times and they usually don't know what to say because they can't really admit the obvious, that MOrmons were blatantly racist, up until 1978, when God suddenly changed his mind about how cursed blacks are and decided they were not so bad after all, so fine, let them ALL in, what do I care?

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Posted by: JoeSmith666 ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 06:34PM

L-d$,inc wants it both ways. It is Doctrine - except when it isn't.


1969 First Presidency Statement

December 15, 1969

To General Authorities, Regional Representatives of the Twelve, Stake Presidents, Mission Presidents, and Bishops.


Our living prophet, President David O. McKay, has said, “The seeming discrimination by the Church toward the Negro is not something which originated with man; but goes back into the beginning with God….

“Revelation assures us that this plan antedates man’s mortal existence, extending back to man’s pre-existent state.”

Faithfully your brethren,
The First Presidency
By Hugh B. Brown
N. Eldon Tanner

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 07:41PM

...some eternal truths don't even last a decade...

That's how powerful ghawd is! He can change something Eternal into just a passing fancy, and every in tune with the lord goes along with it.

We're the ones screwing things up by not following the bouncing ball!

(an example of following the bouncing ball: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxmZ5sabk7U)

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 07:07PM

It's almost like the church leaders are ordinary human beings and not prophets!

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 11:12PM

We should mention other notable mistakes:

- Mountain Meadows Massacre

- That Thingee with children of alt-sexual orientation parents

(Can't think of any others just now)

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 11:14PM

Polygamy

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 11:40PM

- Joseph Smith cuckolding his followers by raping 11 of their wives and 11 of their teenage daughters after pretend 'marrying' them.

- Brigham Young doing the same thing, after Joseph got what he deserved for raping women and children, often to the same women and children, and destroyed the lives of their husbands/Fathers.

-Mormons continuing to sing Joseph's Praises knowing he was a child rapist and a cuckold bull

-Mormons continuing to proudly wear a Y on their chests or foreheads, or resumes, knowing this about Brigham Young.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 08:58PM

> -Mormons continuing to proudly
> wear a Y on their chests or
> foreheads, or resumes, knowing
> this about Brigham Young.


When you're as silly and irresponsible as I am, it took a veritable miracle for me to get my degree at the Y.

BY was a male version of a termagant (think Gladys Lott), a totally despicable man, but I look darn good in a Y t-shirt, and when I, a Brown man wear it, it represents the role that Good Luck has had in my life.

If someone sees it and decides that it's a sign that he/she/Gladys needs to join or to return to the Mormon church, there's no way I'd know, so I won't feel guilty.

And there are other pluses to this stance of mine!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 09:18PM

Termagant?

How shrewd of you.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 09:21PM

Do you feel tamed?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 09:39PM

That play has been rewritten in order to render it politically correct. In the end it is the man who is the bitch, so the real question is whether you feel tamed.

There's no need to answer, though, for we all know Saucie.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2021 09:40PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Iknowofnone ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 10:39AM

"For starters, the church has repeatedly and emphatically disavowed past explanations"
Other than the essay, when and where has the church repeatedly and empahtically disavowed past explanations regarding blacks and the priesthood/temple ??

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 11:19AM

Iknowofnone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "For starters, the church has repeatedly and
> emphatically disavowed past explanations"
> Other than the essay, when and where has the
> church repeatedly and empahtically disavowed past
> explanations regarding blacks and the
> priesthood/temple ??

They still haven’t explained why they discriminated against blacks by denying them entry into their temples when you don’t need the priesthood to enter a temple. The only explanation is that policy was based upon racist attitudes common in America prior to the Civil Rights Era. But that explanation presents more problems than it resolves.

#1. That totally violates Christ’s main commandment, to love our fellow men as ourselves, which is a sin, according to Mormon Doctrine. So the first 150 years worth of leaders of the church sinned against God and led the church members astray, contrary to the doctrine that God would strike them dead before He let them do so.

#2. They can't blame their racism on common cultural attitudes AND claim the founders of their racist CULT were 'inspired by God', unless their 'God' was also racist, in which case, a complete hypocrite.

#3. They can't claim they were just following the way the rest of society was going, when they didn't change their racist policies until 14 years AFTER the Civil Rights Act of 1964.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2021 12:10PM by schrodingerscat.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 11:44AM

Funny how when something ages poorly, "It was an earthly mistake, not a heavenly mandate."

You'd think by now they would realize most anything related to science or human rights is going to burn them later if they make a stand on something. They just can't help using God to enforce their regressive views.

They never seem to learn from history, or, more likely, they don't care because they have ingrained the "speaking as a man" get out of jail card so effectively.

You'd think people would catch on that when their church uses "God said so" as justification, there is probably a reason they don't want discussion or facts.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 12:57PM

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Funny how when something ages poorly, "It was an
> earthly mistake, not a heavenly mandate."

If it was an "earthly mistake, not a heavenly mandate" then how'd Mormon 'divine revelation' end up being more racist/white supremacist than any other scriptures on planet Earth?
And why are they still being published and distributed all over the world every day, complete with racist/white supremacist verses that are clearly contrary to Christ's main commandment?

> You'd think by now they would realize most
> anything related to science or human rights is
> going to burn them later if they make a stand on
> something. They just can't help using God to
> enforce their regressive views.

MORmONs can't help but blame God for their institutionalized racism. The common refrain from MORmONs when you ask them about their racism is, "We don't know why God did that, but it's not important to our salvation."
It is if you believe in Jesus Christ, who commanded you to love your fellow man as yourself. Publishing and distributing the most racist/white supremacist scriptures on planet Earth every day violates Christ's main commandment, aka, constitutes a sin, according to your own doctrine. How is that not important to your salvation?

> They never seem to learn from history, or, more
> likely, they don't care because they have
> ingrained the "speaking as a man" get out of jail
> card so effectively.
>
> You'd think people would catch on that when their
> church uses "God said so" as justification, there
> is probably a reason they don't want discussion or
> facts.

Because they're delusional.

Delusion: maintaining erroneous beliefs, despite superior evidence to the contrary.

"No amount of evidence will convince a fool." Mark Twain

The same applies to delusional MORmONs

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Posted by: heartbroken ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 08:11PM

The priesthood ban was no mistake. It was a directive from Brigham Young who claimed to be a prophet and receive revelation to guide the "only true church." The priesthood ban was enforced for more than 100 years by the 9 "prophets" who succeed Brigham Young. The ban was finally lifted in 1978, more than 10 years after The Civil Rights Movement, because of outside pressure.

LDS Inc. was founded on mistakes. How many versions of the first vision are there? Was the first version a mistake?

What other "earthly mistakes" will LDS Inc. acknowledge? The Book of Mormon? Joseph Smith? Polygamy? Temple marriage for only heterosexual couples? Temples? Tithing? Claiming to be the only true church?

Once the many mistakes have been corrected, LDS Inc. will be just like other Christian churches. Oh, wait...that's what they're aiming for.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 09:04PM

define 'mistake'

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 09:21PM

The words that follow after, "Oops! ..."

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 09:23PM


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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 10:06PM

You know I'm always willing to play!

We're given to understand that Joju didn't have anything against Blacks. No doubt he dabbled in the prevalent notion that White folk were 'better' than Black folk, in perhaps the same way an Arabian stallion is 'better' than a Clydesdale when it comes to racing.

...A place for everyone and everyone in his/her place. It's a tidy way to think...until you have to act like you're ghawd's spokes-hole here on Earth.

Then you have to act the part and come up with shizz that shows you're being a trusted conduit from the most high ghawd.

We know that Joju baptized Blacks and 'gave' or allowed to be given, the priesthood to at least a couple.

And then we come to Mr. Champion Mistake his own worshipful self, Brigham young! Didn't he share a wagon with a Black man when they were approaching and entering the Salt Lake Valley? Do we know how he treated Bro. Green (I think that was his name...)?

But then BY went whole hog on the issue. The era was quite conducive, and there was no lack of support by the body of the Stains...Saints.

And so it became part of the fabric of the church, ingraining itself deeply into the woof and warp of Mormonism. "We existed before coming to this and some of us earned more merit badges, and the more we earned, the greater our station at birth!"

"But", said BY, "pity the poor Black man, whose skin color labeled him as 'merit-badgeless'. Hoist by his own petard, his pre-existent sloth, but happy just to get a body."

Letters over the signatures of then-current prophets confirmed this knowledge given to BY by the ghawd they served. Apostles confirmed it in talks.

Until that revelation from ghawd to BY, and confirmed via earnest prayer to other prophets, rose up and bit the mormon church in its pulchritudinous ass. And it still chewing, but there's ass to spare, and tithing keeps it plump.

Viewed abstractly, as in not having a Clydesdale in this race, the mormons made a HUGE mistake. But the leadership ignores it, the membership ignores it and the tithing keeps rolling in. Income exceeds expenditures: all is well in Zion.

What outsiders, obvious enemies of the church, have to say about it is ignored. Totally ignored... "La la la ...I can't hear you!"

Did I mention tithing exceeds expenses?

It's a mistake that they are managing to survive; where there's a will, there's a way.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 10:05PM

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> define 'mistake'

Wrong.

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