Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 11:21PM

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." -Friedrich Nietzsche. (Beyond Good and Evil: Prelude to a Philosophy of the Future (1886), Chapter IV. Apophthegms and Interludes, §146).

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 11:48PM

It takes two to tango; but fishing line tangles alone, unloved.
-- Solomon Grundy

There are fishers of men and men of fishers. Owls hoot and Anny listens, but doesn't fear with her ears, because her heart waters with the heir of her lungs.

The source of yearning wants what's on sale, but the costco card has expired. It’s partially your life, from your knees to your armpits, so don't sneeze.


from the letters of Sid Hartha to his mailman, vol 2

Please mumble ‘mongst yourselves whilst I peruse The Collected Photos of the Rainbow’s Ear Hair.

Thank you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 10:39AM

"The source of yearning wants what's on sale, but the costco card has expired. It’s partially your life, from your knees to your armpits, so don't sneeze."


Sorry EOD, but this line is brilliant. I rarely like poetry--mostly find it ridiculous trying too hard---the only exception so far is I love Ocean Vuong to death. And that line is right up there with his stuff.

Nietzche would read you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: February 22, 2021 11:49PM

OK. Now what.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 12:01AM

I do not like Nietzsche and ham
I do not like them
Cat, I am

I do not like them here or there
I do not like them anywhere
I do not like them in the dirt
I would not, could not, with Albert

I will not eat them in the rain
I do not like them on a train
I do not like them with your spam
I will not eat them with your Sam

I do not like them in a house
I would not, could not, with a mouse
I do not like Nietzsche and ham
I do not like them
Cat, I am

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 09:58AM

Rumor has it Nietzsche was actually a very funny guy, but failed as a comedian, so had to write instead

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 12:35PM

"I would not, could not, with Albert"


Gold. Right there. Laughing . . .

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 02:49PM

I hope you got the reference to Sam Harris as well!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 02:59PM

Oh. I thought you were referencing Sam I Am. Slow here. Maybe its the same thing though?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 09:02AM

"I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship."

- Rick Blaine

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 09:57AM

I hadn’t heard that quote until last night, watching a Netflix Series called, “The Sinner”, which is a murder mystery. The Detective is interviewing the former philosophy professor about a couple of his former students, who took Nietzsche’s philosophy of the Ubermensch waaaay too far. He explains Hitler’s use of the Ubermensch to justify ethnic cleansing and that Nietzsche foresaw the misuse of his philosophy and warned against it with that quote about the abyss.
I thought it was applicable to the potential danger of trying to build a more stable moral structure than the one you inherited, from scratch.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dogbloggernli ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 03:09PM

What moral basis does it create?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 03:37PM

dogbloggernli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What moral basis does it create?

That’s the problem, Nietzsche’s philosophy was a misanthropic rejection of society’s hypocritical “morality” in favor of individual aspirational striving to evolve beyond good and evil in an effort to become the best kind of human being, the Ubermensch.
People like Hitler used that philosophy to justify ethnic cleansing and genocide against those they believed were less evolved, Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, gays and the disabled.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 10:26AM

I do like this explanation of religion:

Speaking in a parable. -A Jesus Christ was possible only in a Jewish landscape - I mean one over which the gloomy and sublime thunder cloud of the wrathful Yahweh was brooding continually. Only here was the rare and sudden piercing of the gruesome and perpetual general day-night by a single ray of the sun experienced as if it were a miracle of "love" and the ray of unmerited "grace." Only here could Jesus dream of his rainbow and his ladder to heaven on which God descended to man. Everywhere else good weather and sunshine were considered the rule and everyday occurrences. ---Nietzsche

In Godspell in the 70's at Pioneer Theater I played the character who had the Nietzsche line in the opener. Having just graduated BYU I had no idea who he was. Started a fascination for me to know who Nietzsche was as he hadn't been Mormon so didn't count, haha.

The above quote I love because of the clarity given as to how I already felt about Mormonism and religion in general. The self appointed God Mavens take what the Good Earth offers and offer it back to you at a cost. A very high price as they trick you into accepting that they know something you do not. Clever, this. Also common.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 11:54AM

>>>The self appointed God Mavens take what the Good Earth offers and offer it back to you at a cost. A very high price as they trick you into accepting that they know something you do not. Clever, this. Also common.


So true. Well stated.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 02:52PM

Agreed. D&D at his poetic best.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 10:50AM

“Whoever battles monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster himself. And when you look long into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you.”
https://marktconard.com/2014/05/07/nietzsche-and-the-importance-of-translation/#:~:text=And%20it%27s%20more%20accurately%20translated,abyss%20also%20looks%20into%20you.%E2%80%9D

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 12:52PM

Do you need special glasses to look into the abyss? And what exactly is "the abyss" we stare into?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 01:12PM

I think this abyss things works best with finger snapping beatnik style. Only way to break the code.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 01:20PM

Roy G Biv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you need special glasses to look into the
> abyss? And what exactly is "the abyss" we stare
> into?

Going down the Nietzschean rabbit hole, convincing yourself you are one of Nietzsche’s Ubermensch, a more evolved specimen of humanity, which leads to pathetic displays of machismo all to prove you are somehow more engaged with the universe than the rest of us sheep.

https://tv.avclub.com/philosophy-and-fantasy-blur-as-the-sinner-threatens-adu-1841815616

"College is a time for experimentation. Be it styles, habits, or even entire belief systems, when you’re young and questioning everything, it only makes sense to try on a variety of different ideas and actions to see what fits. Most of us grow out of it (and into a more routine lifestyle and thought process) as we get older, but some people—you almost certainly know one of them—can’t seem to ever let go of the past. Normally, that’s not such a big deal. When you’re Jamie Burns, however, and your college years consisted of slowly convincing yourself you were one of Nietzsche’s Ubermensch, a more evolved specimen of humanity, and you potentially murdered someone (and bashed your roommate’s head in with a lava lamp), there might be problems...
..."(Detective) Harry notices the word “ubermensch” carved into the headboard of (murderer) Jamie’s bed in college, and goes to the professor who educated Nick (murder victim) and Jamie in the ways of the German thinker. Along with giving him a primer on Nietzsche 101 (the will to power, death of god, creation of a new morality, etc.), the professor quotes Harry one of the most common sayings pulled from Nietzsche’s writing— “If you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you”—which may as well have been followed by a dun-dun-dunnnnn sound effect. Jamie and Nick learned well the lessons of their teacher, and seem to have used them to become a latter-day Leopold and Loeb, the all-too-real erudite University of Chicago students who murdered a classmate based on their embrace of Nietzsche’s teachings (the crime on which Hitchcock based his classic film Rope.) It’s a solid if unoriginal basis for a story, but I’m waiting for another, hopefully more unexpected, shoe to drop."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/0/sinner-season-3-netflix-matt-bomer-spoilers-ending/

"Nick is one of those dangerous inadequates who discovered the misanthropic ramblings of Frederich Nietzsche in his twenties and never got over it. As one of his former lecturers explains to Detective Ambrose, Nick believes god is dead and that it’s up to the “superior” man – Nietzsche’s Übermensch – to remake the world in his image.

“Many disaffected young men take to Nietzsche, it’s usually just a phase,” Nick and Jamie’s former philosophy professor tells Ambrose. “The Übermensch creates his own morality. Nietzsche contends that our modern ways have led us to lose our faith. God is dead. It’s up to the Übermensch to forge new values to live by.

“It’s a challenge, one that requires will. And discipline… [You] conquer fear. Live at a higher level than common man. Discover the truth of existence.”

For Nick and Jamie, going down the Nietzschean rabbit hole leads to such pathetic display of machismo as eye-balling strangers on the train, picking fights in posh restaurants and driving at speed through red lights. All to prove they are somehow more engaged with the universe than the rest of us sheep."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 01:35PM

uuuum...OK.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 03:11PM

Roy, I'd really recommend reading Beyond Good and Evil. It is an earth-shattering book, ripping to shreds the fabric of Western religion, philosophy, and social organization.

The middle third is the aphorisms from which the Abyss is lifted. That is, in my opinion (correct me if you disagree, EB), the least useful part of the volume. Nietzsche used aphorisms because he was experiencing excruciating migraines and could barely write out a couple of sentences a day. He was a brilliant man who as a child existed in one of the most stultifying environments imaginable, who suffered terrible headaches as an adult, and was at the time of BGE beginning to slide into insanity.

Consider what he was undertaking. He was challenging the monsters of his day, including a repressive religion, established but banal philosophy, institutional racism and oppression, and fin de siecle cynicism. He wanted to slay them and replace them with a new and more productive, more fulfilling social and cultural vision. But what happens when you deconstruct the entire social and intellectual framework within which you function? What happens when you look into the cold, dark, empty abyss?

The emotional toll, the loneliness and uncertainty must be incredible.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: February 24, 2021 01:00PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The middle third is the aphorisms from which the
> Abyss is lifted. That is, in my opinion (correct
> me if you disagree, EB), the least useful part of
> the volume.

His aphorisms before it certainly were useless. But scholarly women aside we are a barren animal if we are talking about many things Nietzsche found important like vitality and virtue in the Ancient Greek sense.

"144. When a woman has scholarly inclinations there is generally something wrong with her sexual nature. Barrenness itself conduces to a certain virility of taste; man, indeed, if I may say so, is "the barren animal."

145. Comparing man and woman generally, one may say that woman would not have the genius for adornment, if she had not the instinct for the SECONDARY role.

146. He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/nietzsche/1886/beyond-good-evil/ch04.htm


> He
> was a brilliant man who as a child existed in one
> of the most stultifying environments imaginable,
> who suffered terrible headaches as an adult, and
> was at the time of BGE beginning to slide into
> insanity.

I counter that he died insane. I disagree. Not speaking if one can truly do it is not a sign of dumbness. I like to think of him as Van Gogh had he lived. He was a man outside of his time and considered evil and/or insane as a result.

"150. Around the hero everything becomes a tragedy; around the demigod everything becomes a satyr-play; and around God everything becomes--what? perhaps a "world"?"

> Consider what he was undertaking. He was
> challenging the monsters of his day, including a
> repressive religion, established but banal
> philosophy, institutional racism and oppression,
> and fin de siecle cynicism. He wanted to slay
> them and replace them with a new and more
> productive, more fulfilling social and cultural
> vision.

"153. What is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 24, 2021 01:50PM

So you think Nietzsche was dumb but not dumb?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: February 24, 2021 02:54PM

He was muted by something but I don't think he was ever insane. Same with Van Gogh. The world was but a position that they were placed in and yet they danced brilliantly.

https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/05/05/the-final-days-of-nietzsche/

And we couldn't hear their music.

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/06/05/dance-insane/

So we will tattoo misattribution on our backs in homage to their genius.

Misattribution to genius has become an artform here.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 24, 2021 03:11PM

I share your admiration for the man, as you know, and agree with the first article that others de-emphasized his protests against antisemitism in order to bolster their own authoritarianism. That much is certainly true. I also agree that by dint of his genius he was largely isolated from others.

But otherwise I don't get the same message as you from the piece. It argues not that Nietzsche was sane till the end but rather that syphilis wasn't the cause of his "dementia." Yes, it describes him several times as "demented" and mentally damaged. What the article does do is present an alternative cause for his decline: a brain tumor.

I have no dog in the syphilis-tumor race. Judged from my uneducated perch, a tumor makes lots of sense. But I agree with the author that Nietzsche suffered a very serious decline that rendered him not only mute but mentally impaired.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2021 03:14PM by Lot's Wife.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: February 24, 2021 01:34PM

>> Roy, I'd really recommend reading Beyond Good and Evil. It is an earth-shattering book, ripping to shreds the fabric of Western religion, philosophy, and social organization.

You must assume I'm interested enough to read it. I'm sorry, that's just not my bag! I'd just as soon read a roll of toilet paper. I'll play guitar instead.

Bottom line for me......I don't take any of this religion, god is nature, Nietzsche, Harris, caveman DNA deabte seriously. I don't even find it interesting at all. Lots of talk but what does it really get us? How does it improve my life and sistuation? I prefer to focus on other things that have tangible results based on my efforts.....music, art, career, cooking, and more. This board is nothing but entertainment for me folks and only because I used to be a mormon :)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: February 24, 2021 01:44PM

How are we supposed to figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin with attitudes like that!?

;-D

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 24, 2021 01:52PM

"I love being sad . . . But guitar is fun, too."

--Nietzsche, on a good day

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 01:21PM

You need Abyssinian glasses. Duh.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 01:43PM

Probably helps if you drink absinthe too.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ookami ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 02:06PM

Not too much though. You'll end up absinthe minded instead.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: February 23, 2021 03:45PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 **     **  ********   ********   ******   ********  
 **     **  **     **  **        **    **  **     ** 
 **     **  **     **  **        **        **     ** 
 **     **  ********   ******    **        ********  
 **     **  **         **        **        **        
 **     **  **         **        **    **  **        
  *******   **         ********   ******   **