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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 09:20AM

A friend of mine posted this in response to the 7th mass murder this week in America.

The Origins of America’s Unique and Spectacular Cruelty
What Happens When Societies Don’t Invest in Civilizing Themselves?

A friend, recently, told me a very interesting and telling story. She’d recently been in the States, where she was taking the subway to work, and she fell down, injuring her wrist. Not a single person helped her up — they all stared at her angrily as if to say: “you are going to make us late for work!!”. (Ironically, the train was full of doctors, nurses, and healthcare workers).
She contrasted that with London — where, the last year, when she’d broken a limb, and had a cast on, people would regularly, and very courteously, give up their seats on the tube.
It’s a tiny example. And perhaps you will say it’s just a meaningless anecdote. But by now, American cruelty is both legendary — and one of the world’s great unsolved mysteries. Just why would people in a rich country leave their neighbours to die for a lack of basic medicine, their young without good jobs or retirements, make their elderly work until their dying day, cripple students with lifelong debt, charge new mothers half of average income just to have a baby — not to mention shrug when their kids begin massacring each other at school? What motivates the kind of spectacular, unique, unimiaginable, and gruesome cruelty that we see in America, which exists nowhere else in the world?
See that pic above? It’s kids huddling under bulletproof blankets, doing “active shooter drills”. That’s what I mean by “unique and spectacular cruelty”. No kid should — ever — have to be traumatized and victimized like that, and indeed, even kids in Pakistan and Iran aren’t.
(And no, I don’t mean “all Americans”. I just mean something like “more” or maybe “enough”, if you want to think statistically, that the distribution of cruelty has fatter tails and a higher peak.)
My answer goes something like this. Americans, you must remember, grew up in the shadow of endless war. With two “sides” who championed atomic individualism, lionized competition and brutality, and despised weakness and fragility. And thus, America forgot — or maybe never evolved — the notion of a public interest. Each man for himself, everyone against everyone himself. So all there is left in America is extreme capitalism now. Few championed a more balanced, saner, healthier way of life, about a common good, about virtue, about a higher purpose. And in that way, America has become something like, ironically enough, a mirror image of its great enemy, the Soviet Union. It is a totalist society, run by and for one end — only a slightly different one: money.
That created a society in which there is no real opportunity to cultivate, nurture, or develop kindness or gentleness, which as we will see, are qualities, that a society needs to invest in, too. The American economy is extreme capitalism, through and through. For example, in other rich countries, at least half the economy is not for profit, sometimes more. But in America, it’s just a few percent. So American life is made mostly only of the values of predatory capitalism now — bruising competition, domination, greed, punishment, discipline, cunning, ruthlessness, egotism. We might call them malignantly narcissistic values. But when the sole end of all thought, action, and effort is making money, even at the detriment of others, what else can exist?
Hence, today, there is almost no sphere or arena of American life in which the values of predatory capitalism don’t predominate or monopolize. Because society is made up more or less only of predatory capitalism, only those values can ever be expressed. Not even in, say, media, not healthcare, not education — which, in other rich countries, because they are not run for profit, are arenas in which softer and gentler qualities can be expressed, like decency, reason, dignity, purpose, meaning, belonging, truth, care, mercy.
But because most of America is now managed by and predatory capital — even its healthcare, media, and education — there is little room, space, opportunity, chance to discuss and suggest and educate people about higher ideals, values, and purposes. For example, on the BBC, I can watch endless documentaries by academics on everything from Renaissance art to French literature — but in America, I’m stuck with Ancient Aliens, poverty porn, police-state reality shows. What is that going to teach me, show me, induce in me — except ignorance, paranoia, resentment, and spite?
The result is a kind of impoverishment we don’t often discuss. A lack, or deficit, of civilizing mechanisms. You see, in other countries, things like media, healthcare, and education, do more than just “provide a service”. Because they’re public goods, are also things that bind people together, connect them with history, bring out their better selves — not just their inner predator. Through them, by treating each other with care and respect as we share them, we learn what it is to be gentle, civilized. They educate us, in that way, about what is to be kind.....
......

So if most everything is purely capitalist, a society cannot really invest in gentleness and kindness. The only lesson that people will really learn is that their neighbours and peers, young and old, are commodities. Things. Objects. Means. To be used, abused, and discarded, the moment that they are no longer profitable. But no one will give up their seat when anyone else falls down — because that requires a higher set of values: empathy, courage, imagination, grace, mercy, humility.
Those things, those great virtues, do not really exist in America anymore, except maybe in church sermons, which is to say, not in the real world. So when we speak of American cruelty, we are really speaking about a lack of civilizing mechanisms, which encode, normalize, sustain, and nurture higher values, or enduringly good human qualities, however you want to put it. These things which define the best in us. Nobility, truth, beauty, justice, service, if you would like me to add to the list above.
Americans seem to have forgotten that these things, these life-giving and life-changing virtues, exist at all — and that they must be, like anything else in society, nurtured and invested in, if we wish them to exist. And the strange thing is that no one appears able to teach them, certainly not me: they don’t have to live like that.“

https://eand.co/the-origins-of-americas-unique-and-spectacular-cruelty-74a91f53ce29?fbclid=IwAR1frAUNpFVZoYTDULv7pKIA9mWokHPrH-fD7jYar8clbIW1GVLTBy1B8Vc&source=social.fb&gi=5cc0fce89d76



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2021 09:37AM by schrodingerscat.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 09:44AM

An event takes place yesterday and you have a friend who finds a two-and-a-half year old article on eudaimonics and you offer it up to us as The Answer to a question many of us never think to ask...

Where’s your article explaining how America gave over two million dollars to the families of the massage parlor victims?

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 09:56AM

Perhaps if CZ charged an OT Fee--$1 per word-- it would help?

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Posted by: Concrete Zipper ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 02:07PM

Damn! That's the best idea I've heard today.

I'd add a $1000 flat fee for bickering.

Everybody send me your credit card information.

CZ

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 02:18PM

It's not a fair deal until you supply us with your definition of "bickering"!

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 04:46PM

Ha. I was just going to say that. Until I read that EOD got there faster.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 02:50PM

That way, we can prepay ;-)

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 04:47PM

We'd go broke waiting for you to bicker TiP. :)

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 06:41PM

I dunno. I think we can find his achilles heel one way or another if we keep trying.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: March 24, 2021 04:41AM

D&D is right. It's not actually very difficult - I have a very hot temper that rises quickly and sometimes gets the better of me... Luckily, you're all protected by distance and the internet ;-)

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 12:59PM

eudaimonics - had to look that one up. Great word I never heard before, but anything having to do with the Socratic notion of the personal Daimon, interests me.
What’s the question you never thought to ask?
Why are Americans so uniquely and spectacularly cruel?
As to the article about Americans giving the Atlanta victims families $2million, that’s wonderful, but money doesn’t make up for the loss of life due to unrelenting mass murder.
I wonder what it will take to make sensible gun regulation more of a priority than restricting voting rights of minorities?
A mass murder everyday? Nope.
How about 10 mass murders per day? Probably not.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 01:38PM

"Sensible" is right up there with "Normal" in terms of everyone being on the same page, right?

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 11:55PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Sensible" is right up there with "Normal" in
> terms of everyone being on the same page, right?


So where do YOU draw the line where you decide, enough is enough!
Let’s quit with mass murder. Do what works in other countries,like OZ, NZ,GB CAall of whom responded to mass murder by restricting AR15s and military rifles.
10 mass murders per day?
so what, a 9-11 every year?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 24, 2021 12:03AM

Whoosh.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 01:39PM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As to the article about Americans giving the
> Atlanta victims families $2million, that’s
> wonderful, but money doesn’t make up for the
> loss of life due to unrelenting mass murder.

False.

One of the murder victims was a single mother devoted to the care of her two minor sons. Without her, how are they to survive?

[And please do not suggest institutional care. That would be a horrifying addition to the existing horror they must live with for the rest of their lives.]

Money can buy not only food and clothes, shelter of some kind, and future education--it can also pay for professional and medical care for two grieving young sons who have permanently lost their only parent...and very possibly the only person in their world who loved them.

The other victims may well have stories which are similar in the economic details.

Money to survive, and money to heal, is almost always important in these kinds of situations.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2021 01:51PM by Tevai.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 02:19PM

Tevai, why you all the time you gotz ta be bickering?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 04:34PM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-----------------------
> eudaimonics - had to look
> that one up. Great word
> I never heard before ...



You start a thread, you post a link within the first post on your new thread, and when I go to it, one of the first things I notice, at the top, is the word, Eudaimonics.

Then the article in your link repeats the word eudaimonia 12 times. I did a Ctrl-^F to find that out...

And you come back to tell us, "eudamimonics - had to look that one up..."

What a small and petty mind I must have, to expect rigor when attempts are made to present facts leading to conclusions.

I suppose you imagine that many of us admire your precise leaps to forgone conclusions and the way you always stick the landings.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 05:07PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> schrodingerscat Wrote:
> -----------------------
> > eudaimonics - had to look
> > that one up. Great word
> > I never heard before ...
>
>
>
> You start a thread, you post a link within the
> first post on your new thread, and when I go to
> it, one of the first things I notice, at the top,
> is the word, Eudaimonics.
>
> Then the article in your link repeats the word
> eudaimonia 12 times. I did a Ctrl-^F to find that
> out...
>
> And you come back to tell us, "eudamimonics - had
> to look that one up..."
>
> What a small and petty mind I must have, to expect
> rigor when attempts are made to present facts
> leading to conclusions.
>
> I suppose you imagine that many of us admire your
> precise leaps to forgone conclusions and the way
> you always stick the landings.

First I heard that word was today. Didn’t read the logo on their website. I usually don’t.
If this is communist, I don’t know.
I don’t know anything about the author, but it is just something to think about, interesting in relation to MORmONism and CULTS in general.
They are all essentially identical,
See characteristics of a delusional abusive CULT.
Only MORmONism is essentially Nihlism,
In that they are active supporters of Zionism, literally taking over Jerusalem financially, spiritually, Zionist, authoritarian totalitarian utopia,
Which would be dystopian for the rest of us.
Which is why they STILL support he who shall not be named T____p



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2021 05:09PM by schrodingerscat.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 05:10PM

Welcome to Handmaids Tale if Mormons get their way.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 06:02PM

schrodingerscat:
"...First I heard that word was today. Didn’t read the logo on their website. I usually don’t."

"I don’t know anything about the author."

It could be instructive to do a bit of background checking before just posting something you come across. You can easily find enough information to know whether a person's viewpoint is worth discussing or not. At the least, it helps to put something into perspective in terms of source of material, writer's credentials and experience, and certainly the type of web site or source you are reading.

Some things are worth discussing or debating. Others not so much.

That's how I feel about it anyway. I always check to see who I'm quoting and what their values, experiences and sources are before I consider and weigh their words and opinion. I think that matters quite a bit.

For instance, if I was looking into the truth claims of the Mormon Church I may see a negative opinion written by some random person who was never Mormon. It can be of some discussion value, perhaps, but is not likely to hold that much weight, if only due to a lack of knowledge and experience by the random nevermo. If, however, I came across a well-written scholarly article by a person who had held a high position in the church and had denounced it and left that would likely be of much greater value as a source of information and insight into the church.

So. Yeah. Source matters. To me at least.

For instance, when reading or listening to viewpoints about a political topic it's instructive to at least know which side of the aisle the speakers or writers come from. It helps to put things into perspective. I find that with most things. Not in the way that if it's R, it's good, if it's D, it's bad or vice versa. Just that a bit of background helps in better understanding a person's opinion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2021 06:06PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 10:23PM

It was written by Dr. Umair Haque who is the son of a Pakistani economist and the director of the Havas Media Lab, and has previously blogged in the Harvard Business Review and Medium and is author of the book The New Capitalist Manifesto: Building a Disruptively Better Business.
I didn’t know anything about him but I like what he has to say about the failures of American cruel form of capitalism.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 10:28PM

Wait--

First you told us that "I don’t know anything about the author."

But now, after having been criticized for not having bothered to read the article and consider the author, you give us the information you should have known from the start?

The point isn't that EOD can point you to the answer, it's that you owe it to your audience to know what you are talking about from the start.

Isn't it?

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 10:40PM

No.
I didn’t know who the author was before I read it.
It was just well written and I shared it because he made good points about the origins of American cruelty.
I did read the whole thing before I posted it and I agree with the author, who is well educated and credentialed, unlike you.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 11:05PM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with the author, who is well educated and
> credentialed, unlike you.

coming from you, that hurts. It really does.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 11:22PM

If The Cat says it's so, well, ya whataya gonna do? When has he ever been wrong?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 11:52PM

He ruined my eudaimonics, and that's just cruel.

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Posted by: anonyXmo ( )
Date: March 24, 2021 07:27AM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It was written by Dr. Umair Haque who is the son
> of a Pakistani economist and the director of the
> Havas Media Lab, and has previously blogged in the
> Harvard Business Review and Medium and is author
> of the book The New Capitalist Manifesto: Building
> a Disruptively Better Business.

He should go to Pakistan and help work on their problems, I hear they have a few of their own.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 24, 2021 10:34AM

anonyXmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> schrodingerscat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It was written by Dr. Umair Haque who is the
> son
> > of a Pakistani economist and the director of
> the
> > Havas Media Lab, and has previously blogged in
> the
> > Harvard Business Review and Medium and is
> author
> > of the book The New Capitalist Manifesto:
> Building
> > a Disruptively Better Business.
>
> He should go to Pakistan and help work on their
> problems, I hear they have a few of their own.

He is an American.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 06:09PM

I mentioned the fact that the article you offered us for our consideration has the word eudaimonic at the head of the website and features eudaimonia 12 times in the article and your response is

> First I heard that word was
> today. Didn’t read the logo
> on their website. I usually
> don’t.

The question arises, 'did you read the article?'

But it doesn't matter.

Frankly, I have to face the fact that I've bitten off more than I can chew. You've stuck the landing again.

And you no doubt hear the cheering crowd and are blinded by the strobe lights flashing.

I can't promise that I won't wail and gnash my teeth at one or more of your future ventures into 'thinking', but if people haven't figured you out by now, they're on their own.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 10:07PM

Yes I read the article, must have overlooked that one word.
You completely missed the point of it.
Did you read it?
Apparently not.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 05:49PM

Wow. A non-American posting such a characterization of Americans would not be viewed favourably, at all.

As with most generalizations, the statement fails on its face. It is obviously and inevitably inaccurate, at best.

Tell the wife and seven children of the police officer who was tragically killed yesterday as he tried to avert disaster for strangers that America is a spectacularly cruel country. Except for all the kind people who help their fellow citizens, their country and even the world during their lifetimes.

Problems? Sure. Tough to solve? Absolutely. The essay is interesting and thought-provoking but the premise fails, for me anyway.

In Canada we could, and often do, think of ourselves as a kinder, gentler nation. We don't have a citizenry that is armed en masse due to our restrictive gun laws, true enough. We have had events of mass killings with guns too though. Not many but enough to avoid complacency and any feelings of superiority over others.

We have a universal health care system that provides decent access and care to all residents, even non-citizens. Our three federal political parties generally agree on what we consider the universal basic decent societal values. For instance, when the pandemic hit, all federal parties as well as the provincial ones, agreed on providing a basic income for all and the program rolled out quickly and is still ongoing. Other values generally considered universal here are democracy, diversity, fairness, inclusion, economic security and equity. Those are not generally the realm of one or the other political parties or cause for ongoing debate on their merits. Debate about how to implement and uphold them, yes, but general agreement exists that we as a people desire to support those principles and more. This universal set of agreed-upon values avoids political stalemates on every single issue repeatedly as power changes from one party to another. We don't keep re-inventing the wheel, iow.

But. Of course the reality often doesn't meet the goals. We have major ongoing issues with how the Indigenous Peoples of Canada have been treated and their continuing struggles for the basics the rest of us take for granted, such as the long term lack of potable water in their communities. If that situation were occurring in a major city how long would it take to resolve? Lack of water to drink and in which to bathe would be seen as a dire emergency and would be addressed as such. In many Indigenous communities in Canada entire generations have never had running water that is fit to drink. It is a federal government responsibility that has never been fulfilled to date.

Another example of discrimination, stereotyping and potential neglect against non-White citizens is a recent scandal where ER staff (doctors and nurses) played a "game" called "The Price is Right". When patients were admitted whom the staff assumed to be Indigenous they guessed the patient's blood-alcohol levels, playing into the stereotype of "drunken Indians", as if every Indigenous patient was an alcoholic. It hurts to think of such medical misbehaviour and the pain it surely caused the patients, who were aware of what was going on. That's not your usual impression of the character of medical staff so it's very disappointing and even actionable.

So, yeah. Canada's great. Depending where you live and who you are. Which is hardly the definition of a truly just society. But you can't take the shortcomings, errors and crimes of some and pin blame on all. I was familiar with the phrase "The Ugly American" as a kid but we didn't understand it and didn't find it to be generally true. We can think we're better because we don't have a gun culture here. The only people with guns I know are hunters and they hunt for food. But still there are major issues with racism, social and economic inequity and other problems to be addressed and hopefully solved.

It is a mistake to generalize so broadly that you label all people in an area or country in profoundly negative ways, as if they all share the same character or behavioural flaw. As an outsider (Canadian) I certainly wouldn't consider *all* Americans to be "spectacularly cruel" - of course not - it's ludicrous. Or at least I wouldn't announce that I held such an opinion, if I did. But nor, I imagine, is that view welcome to Americans, even from a fellow American. We can all offer countless examples of how it is false.

There are some points in the article featured in the OP that may be accurate but the premise, as stated in the title, detracts from the writer's views that may otherwise be considered more objectively. The title evokes a strong negative reaction, which is counterproductive to a rational discussion.

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Posted by: Elyse ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 01:43PM

Oh come on.

I grew up in Europe and, in my opinion and experience, an American would be stepping in to help before anyone else would.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 02:24PM

"Americans" come in all sizes, shapes, and dispositions. But we can show many examples of goodness and kindness.

Did you know that in Mexico there is an almost institutionalized embargo on 'getting involved'?

It's in this 'dicho': "La Paz es la no invervención".

Loosely translated: "Peace is achieved through never getting involved..." The Good Samaritan story just doesn't fly in Mexico.


Humans!

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 06:07PM

EOD:

"Americans" come in all sizes, shapes, and dispositions. But we can show many examples of goodness and kindness."

Yeah. That's it. If I'd read this first I wouldn't have had to take so long to write so much to say essentially the very same thing.

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 07:57PM

Puzzled. Have some post disappeared from this thread?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 08:19PM

Lots Wife had a post removed.

Serves the woman right!

Unfortunately, I'd appended a real zinger to it, which also disappeared into Outer Darkness, so her evil ways cost you a good laugh.

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 08:21PM

One I posted was removed, too. Not sure why. Also others.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 08:25PM

I think an issue that arose, a very highly sensitive issue, garnered too much attention, with ZERO likelihood of attaining any chance at all that we'd come to some sort of agreement... I can see why it had to go...

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 23, 2021 10:05PM

The person who derailed the thread in two or three places was a banned poster. When he was deleted, so too were our responses.

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: March 24, 2021 11:11AM

I think it absurd to suggest that Americans are somehow uniquely and spectacularly cruel, unique being used in the sense of comparison with other countries. I have lived in three countries and see nothing that sets cruelty on a higher level here. Most mass murders are carried out by men so presumably the cruelty gene has skipped the female half of America.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: March 24, 2021 12:12PM

The WWII generation knew how to work together to achieve a common goal.

I also think the economic system was kinder in my parents' generation. CEOs were not so grossly overpaid when compared to the average worker. There were more pensions and better unions. College tuition was affordable and better subsidized. Medical care was a lot cheaper (my father was able to pay my brother's delivery bill out of pocket.) Housing was less expensive.

Something went out of whack with our economic system. I'm not sure what.

Oh, and I once felt sick on a NYC subway. Not only were the other passengers on my car very concerned, but one walked me to my office to make sure I got there safely. NYC people often respond to tourists enquiries in a kind fashion. The people there are underrated.

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: March 25, 2021 04:52AM

So as to not bicker, I'll agree with some parts of this article, Yes America was built by tough folks who had to face very rough circumstances. Just watch any John Wayne movie. My grandparents and their people were a lot like those cowboys. Up until WW2 the culture was like that, We'd have never thought about cancel culture, self censorship, white fragility, closing down the economy for the flu. We've become way more sensitive, and like the rest of the West more feminine.

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Posted by: ookami ( )
Date: March 25, 2021 03:06PM

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So as to not bicker, I'll agree with some parts of
> this article, Yes America was built by tough folks
> who had to face very rough circumstances. Just
> watch any John Wayne movie.

How do I break this to you, guy? John Wayne wasn't really a cowboy or a soldier; he just played them on film sets.

Please tell me I don't have to also explain that movies aren't real.

> Up until WW2 the culture was like that, We'd have
> never thought about cancel culture, self
> censorship, white fragility,

Guy, it's not "cancel culture," it's taking out trash.

And what the fuck are "self censorship" and "white fragility?" Besides dipshits whining about not being able to get away with being dipshits.

> closing down the
> economy for the flu.

Over half a million dead in the US in under a year is NOT the flu. Or are you the type who doesn't care how many die as long as you're not one of them?

> We've become way more
> sensitive, and like the rest of the West more
> feminine.

If by "more feminine," you mean "less selfish and stupid," I'll take that as a compliment.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 25, 2021 03:14PM

Thank you.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 25, 2021 04:50PM

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... closing down the economy for the flu...

The flu is unpleasant, with symptoms that can include fever, cough, sore throat, runny nose, muscle aches, headaches and fatigue. Sinus and ear infections may occur as complications of flu. Serious complications include pneumonia, heart, brain or muscle inflammation and respiratory or kidney failure. Flu can also make underlying chronic conditions worse (i.e. asthma, chronic heart disease).

So yeah, nothing to take lightly. Some complications such as pneumonia can be life-threatening. And yes, some people do die of influenza every year.


COVID-19 is *not* the flu, although some symptoms are similar.

COVID-19 symptoms include the following:

Most common symptoms:

Fever
Dry cough
Tiredness


Less common symptoms:

Aches and pains
Sore throat
Diarrhoea
Conjunctivitis
Headache
New loss of taste or smell***(a cardinal sign of COVID)
A rash on skin or discolouration of fingers or toes


Serious symptoms:

Difficulty breathing or shortness of breath
Chest pain or pressure
Loss of speech or movement


Johns Hopkins, for one, clearly and emphatically states that COVID-19 is **not** the flu. CV has a higher severe disease and mortality rate than influenza in all age groups (except maybe children under 12).

Johns Hopkins states that the flu and COVID-19 "are both contagious respiratory illnesses, meaning they affect your lungs and breathing, and can be spread to others". They state that although the symptoms can seem similar the illnesses are caused by different viruses.

Of note, COVID-19 can cause a person to suddenly lose the sense of smell or taste - this is NOT the case with influenza.

With COVID, complications include long-term damage to lungs, heart, kidneys and brain (in those with severe cases of CV).

Flu complications include inflammation of heart, brain, muscles as well as sometimes secondary bacterial infections. (Multi-organ failure can sometimes occur).


Mortality:

COVID-19: 2,745,964 deaths worldwide. (545,282 deaths between Jan 2020 and March 25, 2021)

Flu: 290,000 to 650,000 people die of flu-related causes every yar world-wide (estimated by WHO).


The COVID-19 mortality rate is estimated to be substantially higher than that of most strains of the flu (possibly 10 times or more than influenza mortality rates)


https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-disease-2019-vs-the-flu


I would like to avoid dying from choking to death, gasping and wheezing for air, or from multiple blood clots throughout vessels and organs thankyouverymuch. I'm somewhat nervous about the vaccine but prefer it to the alternative of possibly contracting CV and dying unpleasantly. Life is sometimes a duel between the lesser of unwelcome choices.

I don't understand why suddenly, in the face of a once-in-a-century pandemic, in all too many instances, the person-on-the-street decides to trust more in their own feelings than in people of science and medicine who are literally taking their own medicine, after rigorous testing and full disclosure.

I understand hesitancy and fear, even, in the face of such a monstrous disease, but do not understand the impulse to throw science overboard, thinking that non-medics know better. They usually just don't.

As evidenced, for one, by those who continue to claim that COVID-19 is "just the flu". What medical and/or scientific training do they have to justify such a (false) conclusion?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2021 04:55PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 25, 2021 04:54PM

I won't believe you until John Wayne says it.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 25, 2021 04:55PM

Ha. That could take a good long while!

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: March 25, 2021 12:28PM

Fortunately some of that "sensitivity" has resulted in improvements in areas such as race and acceptance of differences. Isn't that a good thing?

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: March 25, 2021 04:12PM

kentish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fortunately some of that "sensitivity" has
> resulted in improvements in areas such as race
> and acceptance of differences. Isn't that a good
> thing?

Yes, kentish. Yes it is.

Too bad so many don't see the changes for the positive that they are.

Together we're stronger. Or something like that.

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Posted by: Britisher ( )
Date: March 25, 2021 08:16PM

"For example, on the BBC, I can watch endless documentaries by academics on everything from Renaissance art to French literature — but in America, I’m stuck with Ancient Aliens, poverty porn, police-state reality shows."

Not true. The BBC's most successful output in the UK includes miserabilist soap operas (Eastenders) and dreary cop/hospital dramas, reality TV (The Apprentice, Dragon's Den, Castaway), numerous cheap and nasty game shows etc. Their documentaries include one-sided royal propaganda, and an endless stream of shows about how the British suffered most in WW2, civilised the world, the Tudors etc. Poverty porn is also on thr BBC although less so than the other English ststions.

Their nature docs are good. If they can spend thirty seconds without mentioning "climate change".

And the British public are forced to pay for the BBC.

All the type of documentaries you mention are shown in the UK along with home grown equivalents. Lool up Jamie Theakston - he specialises in these. You can also see docs on non-BBC about British Bigfoot, "Most Haunted", medium shows etc

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 25, 2021 08:59PM

So you don't believe in "climate change," oppose mandatory financing of public TV, and know all the details of pop culture. Where have we seen that combination of obsessions before?

I don't think you are British although you may be "Britisher" than most of board participants.

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Posted by: logged out today ( )
Date: March 25, 2021 09:21PM

Climate change can't be real as long he has to shovel the sidewalk in front of the Kwik-E-Mart.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 25, 2021 09:23PM

Hey, don't speak ill of the Assistant Night Manager!

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Posted by: Tertulia ( )
Date: March 25, 2021 08:31PM

Personally, I think the views of a perceptive outsider are always good to consider.

Also, getting defensive about constructive criticism isn’t a smart move.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 25, 2021 09:16PM

> Also, getting defensive about
> constructive criticism isn’t
> a smart move.


Please elaborate anent your credentials regarding "The Spotting & Identification of Smart Moves".

There are standards that must be met, according to the AOSM, the body charged with overseeing this particular arena of Human Activity.

Let's see what ya got!

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: March 25, 2021 09:04PM

Our history of slavery and genocide justifies the OP title, but we are not remarkable among nations with our vices. This is humanity, and by extension, it's also about our gods. Not unique but global.

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