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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 01:25PM

Do you propose that The Book of Mormon is a true history?
Yes
Then all of its' concepts would stand up to scrutiny?
Yes.
Do you have a copy of the book with you?
Open it to the book of Ether chapter 6 verse 11
Have you ever experienced a furious wind on the pacific ocean?
Whatever the answer is this is my response. Let us, just for illustration, presume that the wind was only 10 mph.
So 10mp. X 1day( 24hrs) = 240 miles
Then 240 miles per day x344 days = 82,560 miles or 10.35 time around the earth at the equator.
Are you saying that the Jaredites went around the earth more than 10 times to reach their destination?

The missionary's answer should be interesting



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2021 01:37PM by thedesertrat1.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 01:57PM

The barges would have had a lot of drag. Wouldn’t they have been blown across the Atlantic, up the St Lawrence River, and into Lake Ontario? Good thing they all landed on the same day with no casualties.

Who in the history of Earth has sailed for a YEAR with a boat full of domestic animals? Let alone in a submarine. I mean actual historical figures, not Noah.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 02:03PM

Well, the circumference of the Earth at the equator is 24,900 miles, so it would only be 3.3 times around the Earth. But then, one cannot sail completely around the Earth at the equator because one would keep running into land.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 03:04PM

[|] Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, the circumference of the Earth at the
> equator is 24,900 miles, so it would only be 3.3
> times around the Earth. But then, one cannot sail
> completely around the Earth at the equator because
> one would keep running into land.

Why do you keep confusng the issue with facts?
Have you no feelings for my sensibilities?

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 03:06PM

My question remains!!
How would a missionary be able to respond to this?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 03:33PM

A wise missionary would remind you that the Jaredite vessels were traveling away from the Great Attractor, which counteracted their (relativistic) progress around the globe.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: June 01, 2021 03:46PM


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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 01, 2021 03:48PM

Absolutely!

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: June 01, 2021 07:20PM

With all of the Great Attractors at BYU, weren’t the Jaredite vesicles frustrated in their journey?

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Posted by: heartbroken ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 03:24PM

The same way they answer all questions that stump them. They'll say they don't understand everything but they "know" the church is true. It will give them a sense of comfort and righteousness to hold on to the iron rod when presented with anything that challenges their beliefs.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 03:38PM

Barges are not going to drift at anywhere near the speed of the wind. Plus wind direction changes and ocean currents also affect where the barge drifts. Material washed out to sea during the Fukushima tsunami was washing up in the Western Hemisphere for several years afterward.

Like another poster said, food and water for people and livestock for a year is a much bigger problem.

And barges that can flip upside down - somehow I think horses and cows would not handle that well!

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Posted by: lurking in ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 04:17PM

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Barges are not going to drift at anywhere near the
> speed of the wind. Plus wind direction changes and
> ocean currents also affect where the barge drifts.


"5 And it came to pass that the Lord God caused that there should be a furious wind blow upon the face of the waters, towards the promised land; and thus they were tossed upon the waves of the sea before the wind.
...
"8 And it came to pass that the wind did never cease to blow towards the promised land while they were upon the waters; and thus they were driven forth before the wind." [Ether 6:5,8]

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 07:42PM

Pretending for a moment that this isn't all bad fiction, verse 5 says nothing about how fast they were drifting. Barges, tree trunks, anything sitting low in the water drifts very slowly.

As for verse 8, as far as I am concerned, that is just confirmation that the BoM is bad fiction, and the Book of Ether is remarkably bad, even for the BoM. Glowing rocks, flippable submarines, yearlong windstorms. As if....

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Posted by: lurking in ( )
Date: May 31, 2021 01:09AM

That God's "furious wind," which was violent enough to produce "mountain waves" and "great and terrible tempests," and which blew continuously toward the Jaredites' destination during the course of their journey, produced a net forward barge speed of less than 1.5 knots is a significant problem for the BoM in my view.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2021 02:08AM by lurking in.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 31, 2021 01:19AM

I think this is tightly argued, tight like unto a dish.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: May 31, 2021 01:54AM

Just the way Joseph liked them.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: June 01, 2021 03:48PM

I too have been afflicted at times with "furious wind". See, we all have something divine in us ;-)

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Posted by: lurking in ( )
Date: June 01, 2021 07:00PM

Soft Machine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I too have been afflicted at times with "furious
> wind". See, we all have something divine in us ;-)


The existential challenge, then, is to keep this "furious wind" well separated from the "divine spark." ;-)

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 07:48PM

Ether was first used as an anesthetic in surgery in 1846. Joseph Smith was putting people to sleep with the Book of Ether in 1830. Thus we see that Joseph Smith was a true pioneer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2021 07:50PM by babyloncansuckit.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 07:22PM

The distance between Paris and Boston is 3448 miles.
So it is reasonable to conclude that the distance from where the Jaredites left the old world to the new world is about the same.

The Jaredites traveled for 344 days. So the furious wind drove them a whopping 10 miles a day.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 07:36PM

Don't forget they carried "Swarms of Honeybees) Ether 2:3

Flocks and herds of many kinds Ether 6:4

As well as food for themselves and their criiter. Plus seeds of all manners.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 07:38PM

It's also like a pubescent American boy was trying to update the story of Noah's Ark.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 07:59PM

The prevailing winds at the latitude of Boston and Paris are from the west. Sometimes NW, sometimes SW, very rarely from the east. Sailboats can go against the wind, though they make very slow progress. Floating barges simply cannot go against the wind.

It would be possible to float by going down to the west coast of N Africa, where the prevailing winds are from the east. That is the reason hurricanes start off the coast of Africa, cross the Atlantic to the Caribbean, and then as they turn north toward the US, they reverse direction and move to the NE and then E.

However I always thought the accepted BoM myth was that Lehi and the gang crossed the Pacific on the prevailing westerlies. It's not all that far of a hike from Jerusalem to the Red Sea, and from there, there is an easy water path to the Pacific. Besides, the Arabian peninsula had that NMH stone marker that BoM apologists claim must have meant the city Nahom mentioned in the tale of the journey in the BoM.

Yeah, it's the long way to America, but at least the wind is blowing the right direction. Well, if you are headed for Seattle or San Francisco.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 08:18PM

Yes. Lehi came by sailboat across the Indian Ocean and the Pacific.

The Jaredites were said to land in North America. (North of the Narrow neck of land)

Unlike Lehi the traversed a land of "many waters" before reaching an unnammed ocean.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 07:55PM

How does wind blow a submarine anywhere ?

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: June 01, 2021 07:23PM

It will all be explained in the next life

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 08:29PM

The real question is.....

Why did the Jaredites even need to cross the ocean?

In mormon mythology, the earth was one land mass until the days of Peleg who was the great great grandson of Noah.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 09:38PM

A very good point.

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Posted by: lurking in ( )
Date: May 31, 2021 01:21AM

Peleg and the dividing of the earth are first mentioned in Genesis 10. The Tower of Babel and the curse thereof, from which the Jaredites escape, don't come along until the next chapter, Genesis 11. ( I'm not sure if the church has ever tried to attached approximate dates to these events.)

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 31, 2021 01:33AM

The traditional dates are ca 2500 BCE for the Flood, about 2400 BCE for Peleg, and 2250 BCE for the Tower of Babel. That mean that the continents had about 100 years to scurry around the globe before the languages were dispersed, which seems like it would have left a lot of people with motion sickness.

Either that or it's all nonsense.

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Posted by: lurking in ( )
Date: May 31, 2021 01:54AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That mean that the continents
> had about 100 years to scurry around the globe
> before the languages were dispersed

That's about .01 knot.

> which seems
> like it would have left a lot of people with
> motion sickness.

But nothing compared to taking a 344-day ride on a "mountain wave" (which is the literal translation for "rollercoaster" in the pure Adamic language).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2021 02:50AM by lurking in.

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: May 30, 2021 10:36PM

They could use the same answer other religions do: God can make anything happen.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: May 31, 2021 02:04AM

The more impossible the story, the more it shows the miraculous power of God. It’s not as if believing anything, no matter how ridiculous, could be a problem.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: June 01, 2021 07:04PM

Sadly, I think you are correct.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: May 31, 2021 12:39PM

The Jaredites did not drift all that time: they stopped in Hawaii for a short time, to, you know visit Pearl Harbor and the PCC.

Oh, and Jaredites submarines being "blown by the wind" without sails? Guess what? Modern submarines have a large superstructure called a sail!

Checkmate anti's!

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: May 31, 2021 06:41PM

They also taught the native Hawaiians how to surf.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: June 01, 2021 07:09PM

I defer to your expertise and analysis. I should have noticed. They obviously left all their consonants in the Saudi Peninsula, and when they got to Hawaii, they mostly only had vowels left.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 01, 2021 09:45PM

Austronesians as Jaredites. That explains Moroni over by Madagascar, too.

Very, very good.

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Posted by: RPackham ( )
Date: June 01, 2021 10:14PM

For a thorough discussion of the problems with the Jaedite."barges" see the article "Jaredite Ship-building Technology" by Kent Ponder, PhD: http://packham.n4m.org/ships.htm

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: June 02, 2021 01:18PM

All this talk of Jaredite barges is when I usually direct people to pour a nice cup of coffee and settle in to google images for 'Erie Canal barges 1830's', and see what they look like, then consider JS lived walking distance from the canal.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: June 07, 2021 12:05AM

Likewise google USS Turtle. The first US submarine used in the revolutionary war.

Two halves shaped like a dish bound tight.

An opening in the top and bottom.

Light provided by glowing lichen.

Joseph could easily learned about this craft when he was in Salem recovering crom his leg operation.

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Posted by: #1Son ( )
Date: June 02, 2021 05:33PM

Please refer back to the Prime Directive of L-d$,inc: When you have Faith, Facts don't matter.

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Posted by: cheezus ( )
Date: June 08, 2021 11:09AM

Mormon and Moroni abridged out the accounts of all their tourist stops along the way... duh!!! That is why it took almost a year. And just so you know, they did celebrate Christmas that year on a tropical island, 'cause they wanted the experience of Christmas on the beach and they even left out cookies for Santa 'cause they knew it would be a western tradition of the place they were going to inhabit thousands of years from then, 'cause Jesus said so and his finger wrote it..... duuuuhhh!!!!


The tourist stops like at Atlantis or Tahiti are not important to your 'salivation'.

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