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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: August 25, 2021 12:15AM

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/08/24/even-lds-leaders-are-struggling-get-mormons-vaccinated-against-covid/?

"Even LDS leaders are struggling to get Mormons vaccinated against the coronavirus.

LDS leaders stoked a far-right culture for decades. Now it might undermine their authority.

On Aug. 12, the presiding quorum for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — its governing body — strongly urged members to wear face masks in public meetings and get vaccinated. “We find ourselves fighting a war against the ravages of COVID-19 and its variants,” they pronounced, and “we want to do all we can to limit the spread of these viruses.”

The statement followed President Russell M. Nelson, the top LDS leader, publicizing his vaccination in January, encouraging the faithful to follow his example and be “good global citizens.”

These moves expose both the widespread vaccine hesitancy and general skepticism toward anti-virus measures throughout the LDS community. Less than half of eligible residents of Utah, where members constitute a majority of the population, are fully vaccinated, placing the state in the lower half of the nation. One study revealed that 33 percent of Mormons were vaccine hesitant, with another 17 percent refusing the vaccine altogether."

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Posted by: Dallin Ox ( )
Date: August 25, 2021 12:31AM

Mormons, 2020: "Isn't it amazing that we have a doctor as a prophet to guide us through these times?"

Mormons, 2021: "Nelson is only speaking as a man and a doctor, not a prophet."

------

Mormons, 2020: "Follow the prophet, he won't lead us astray."

Mormons, 2021: "Nelson has no business telling us what to put in our bodies."

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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: August 25, 2021 01:03AM

If the Mormon church really did care about getting everyone vaccinated, here is what they would do:

1.) Purchase enough vaccine to vaccinate every church member world-wide. I think that $100 Billion will cover it easily, leaving almost all of their precious Ensign Peak fund untouched. It might cost less than a new mall.

2.) Plan ahead for a "Vaccination Sunday" and a follow-up vaccination Sunday two weeks later. On these two days, the sunday meeting schedule at every stake center and ward house would be shortened or a stake conference held so that there is only one Sacrament session and no other meetings. The second half of the day would be for vaccinations. Convert the gymnasium in to a vaccination center after the sacrament meeting and invite everyone in the neighborhood (member or non-member) for vaccinations. Use social encouragement to get everyone to comply with what the priesthood leaders said you should do (get vaccinated). Serve refreshments and make it a very social event. During the preceeding sacrament meeting, the talks could be centered on the blessings of good health, vaccinations, sacrifice to help your fellow man, etc.

3.) If the church uses its usual bag of manipulative tricks, a very high percentage of church members and invited guests would end-up fully vaccinated as a result. Then the church could get its much craved media attention, showing the world how the church takes care of their own and contributes to make the world a better place. But there would also be a big self-interest for the church in such a situation also. Healthy church members attend church more often, they pay more tithing if they are working, and they need less church welfare... all for the cost of two shots per member and some of their neighbors. During the vaccination process, the missionaries could work the room (the whole gymnasium), introducing themselves to any non-members and trying to get new investigators out of it. It could be one of the church's biggest campaigns ever if things go well.

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Posted by: subeamnotlogedin ( )
Date: August 25, 2021 09:20AM

"vaccination Sunday". Now that sounds fun. Have a popular lds speaker John by the way or an EFY singer come and entertain while there is a line to get vaccinated. Have good delivered. Hahah pizza on a holy Sunday and sodas and cookies. Give out "Mormon and vaccinated" shirts they used to give out "Mormon helping hands" shirt pit during hurricane Ike Clean up.The lds church could make it a HUGE event for members and everyone around.lol give out gift cards from Chick-fil-A for everyone who got vaccinated. Who ever gets vaccinated gets permission to not having to wear garment for 1 week.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: August 25, 2021 01:53AM

Why it's almost like ChurchCo goes whichever way the wind blows...


My Bad!

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: August 25, 2021 02:08AM

The church just needs to define what is is and be honest about it. Instead they play games. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They put out all this cushy PR in public and then prove that’s all bullshit by their actions and what the leaders say in their talks. Basically the church has no balls.

They either need to say we have had a new revelation and LGBTQ members are entitled to all of the ordinances and blessings of the church. Or they need to say God does not condone gay sealings in the temple and never will. It’s impossible to be exalted as a LGBTQ.

The church doesn’t have the balls to be blunt and honest about what it is and it’s confusing and frustrating to people. Either statement is going to cause big exit numbers. You either go the rout the Community of Christ has taken or you stay more old school Brighamite.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: August 25, 2021 01:57AM

Using the term “global citizen” was a blunder. You are talking about a church that considers the US to be the New Jerusalem and not to be part of the world. Global citizen sounds too worldly and globalist.

The church is doing a good job of alienating it’s more traditional members who feel they are Zion and also the more progressive members who think gays should be treated as equals.

The next ten years might be entertaining. Maybe someone will start a church where God is a bisexual with a huge harem of both male and female spouses.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: August 25, 2021 10:24AM

AND their tithing...

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: August 25, 2021 11:41AM

I think they are afraid of losing their 55+ members.

The church has already lost the youth due to their hard stance on gays and offering no to little activities.

Then there are the 30 and 40 year olds who are loving their children more than the strict tenets of Mormonism.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: August 25, 2021 12:03PM

How can vaccinate hesitantly be widespread if it’s only 33%?

This brings to mind the Milgram experiment, where 2/3 completely defer to authority. The numbers are the same, which means Mormonism probably had nothing to do with me being a conformist asshole. 33% of Mormons rejecting authority is not impressive, but at least it shows that they aren’t all blind followers.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 25, 2021 12:24PM

Would you like to see 33% of people refuse to get the MMR vaccine or the polio vaccine? 33% of people refuse to refrain from abusing children? How about 33% refusing to obey laws against running people over?

What is it about Covid that makes you think endangering others is an honorable thing to do? The truth is you lot are the torturers in the Milgram experiment, following political irrationality without concern for others.

You are too good a person to exhibit such selfishness and irrationality.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: August 25, 2021 12:36PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are too good a person to exhibit such
> selfishness and irrationality.

Yeah, I'm confused.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2021 12:36PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: August 26, 2021 02:11PM

Here’s what happens when LDS leaders issue a Fatwah,
https://www.sltrib.com/news/2021/08/26/heres-what-happened-utahs/

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 26, 2021 02:14PM

The slope of the line doesn't steepen much if all, which suggests the church statement had virtually no impact.

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Posted by: Lurker 1 ( )
Date: August 26, 2021 04:16PM

I am completely pro vaccine and received my first dose the second day I was eligible. Until the vaccine was available to everyone I was fairly Nazi about wearing a mask and socially distancing. I think anyone who HASN'T HAD COVID and doesn't get vaccinated is an idiot.

If you think however that getting vaccinated is going to end Covid then could you please share with me whatever it is you're smoking. There are huge numbers of break thru cases including two of my adult children that have been vaccinated. The break thru infected people still spread Covid.

It appears the only thing the vaccine does is slow the rate of spread and keep people out of the ICU and from dying, which are more than enough reasons to get vaccinated. Every ICU bed in the county in which I live is full with Covid cases and every one of them are unvaccinated.

Wearing masks and socially distancing protects the unvaccinated. I may be self centered, heartless, and un-Christ like but I see no need to jump thru hoops to protect people that choose to not be vaccinated.

I am PIMO and I get very irritated with people at church that are antivaxers. The president of the Mormon church set the example and a large minority of the members refuse to follow his example.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 26, 2021 04:23PM

What you say is understandable, but if you don't wear a mask you endanger both the unvaccinated and the vaccinated insofar as they can still be infected with Delta. There are also the kids who are not old enough to qualify.

Where I live the vaccination rate is very high but almost everyone dons a mask when going indoors or encountering others at close remove. It's a pain, but when I look around my gym and see children as well as adults I feel I don't have a choice. I don't want to be responsible for putting some youngster/s through a COVID infection complete with its long-term consequences.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: August 26, 2021 05:01PM

Good, simple article by Johns Hopkins, Aug 2, 2021, answering some of the lingering questions about vaccinated people and disease transmission:

https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/new-data-on-covid-19-transmission-by-vaccinated-individuals

The bottom lines for the purposes of this discussion, in my view, are as follows:

“There’s a difference between breakthrough infections and breakthrough disease.

“Breakthrough infections occur when a fully vaccinated person tests positive for the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Breakthrough disease occurs when a fully vaccinated person experiences symptoms of COVID-19 disease.

“Vaccines remain highly effective at preventing severe disease, breakthrough infections and disease among vaccinated individuals remain uncommon, and most of the new COVID-19 cases in the U.S. are among unvaccinated people.

“Still, the exact rates of breakthrough cases are unknown at this time because cases may be asymptomatic and, until recently, the CDC didn’t recommend that vaccinated people be tested following exposure. For this reason, updated guidance states that vaccinated people should resume wearing a mask in indoor public areas, especially where there is high transmission of COVID-19.

“Breakthrough infections are still uncommon, and breakthrough disease is rare.

“The vaccines are designed to stop serious disease, hospitalization, and death and they are doing that to an extremely high degree—even against the delta variant.”


More excerpts:

“New data was released by the CDC last week showing that vaccinated people infected with the delta variant carry viral loads similar to those of people who are unvaccinated.

“While this sounds discouraging, it’s important to keep three things in mind:

1. “Vaccines remain highly effective at preventing severe disease.

2. “Breakthrough infections among vaccinated individuals remain uncommon.

3. “The majority of new COVID-19 infections in the US are among unvaccinated people.

“So, what does all of this mean in terms of risks for both vaccinated and unvaccinated people? And what might data like this suggest for public health guidance going forward? Amesh Adalja, MD, of the Center for Health Security, answers a few questions about our evolving understanding of immunity and COVID vaccines.

“The new data says that a fully vaccinated person who experiences a breakthrough infection can spread the virus just as much as an unvaccinated person. Is this only for symptomatic infections?

“It’s expected that symptomatic breakthroughs are more contagious than asymptomatic breakthroughs.

“When extrapolating, it is critical to understand that this study is derived primarily from one major site in which the activities and the settings that were leading to infections are not necessarily representative of the day-to-day life of a fully vaccinated individual.

“What does this mean for fully vaccinated people who have a known exposure? Do they need to get tested and quarantine themselves?

“The CDC updated its guidance to say that fully vaccinated people who are exposed to someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 should be tested three to five days after exposure. They should wear a mask in public indoor settings for 14 days or until they receive a negative test result.

“What is known about the rate of breakthrough infections vs infections among unvaccinated people?

“There’s a difference between breakthrough infections and breakthrough disease.

“Breakthrough infections occur when a fully vaccinated person tests positive for the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Breakthrough disease occurs when a fully vaccinated person experiences symptoms of COVID Breakthrough disease occurs when a fully vaccinated person experiences symptoms of COVID-19 disease.

“Vaccines remain highly effective at preventing severe disease, breakthrough infections and disease among vaccinated individuals remain uncommon, and most of the new COVID-19 cases in the U.S. are among unvaccinated people.

“Still, the exact rates of breakthrough cases are unknown at this time because cases may be asymptomatic and, until recently, the CDC didn’t recommend that vaccinated people be tested following exposure. For this reason, updated guidance states that vaccinated people should resume wearing a mask in indoor public areas, especially where there is high transmission of COVID-19.

“What should vaccinated people do to protect themselves and those around them?

“Breakthrough infections are still uncommon, and breakthrough disease is rare.

“The vaccines are designed to stop serious disease, hospitalization, and death and they are doing that to an extremely high degree—even against the delta variant.

“Immunosuppressed individuals for whom the vaccine might not be as effective may want to wear a mask in high risk situations and/or in areas where vaccination rates are low.”


("Amesh Adalja, MD, is a senior scholar at the Center for Health Security and an adjunct professor in Environmental Health and Engineering. He is also an affiliate of the Johns Hopkins Center for Global Health.")



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2021 05:03PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Lurker 1 ( )
Date: August 26, 2021 06:44PM

This is not the result of a study, it is only anecdotal.

My son in law is a nurse at a convalescent home (about 90 residents). Prior to the vaccine, Covid ravaged the location and they had about 15 deaths. It is going thru again. It does not seem to be infecting those that previously contracted Covid and the infection rate appears to be only slightly less with those that have been vaccinated than those who haven't. None of the vaccinated residents have severe symptoms, only the unvaccinated.

My vaccinated son who is also a nurse had a runny nose and low grade fever about 11 days ago. He tested positive for Covid. The next day his wife also had a runny nose and tested positive. The next day their 15 month old daughter tested positive. None of them have more than a mild cold as far as symptoms including my grand daughter who is unvaccinated but my son did get 10 days of paid coronacation.

I can't believe any study that states the vaccine does much in preventing either infection or disease in the vaccinated. It is not what I am seeing in my area. I do believe it will keep the symptoms down, flatten the curve, and keep the emergency rooms and ICU's available for real emergencies. Wearing a mask, if it is even effective, only protects those adults who choose to not be vaccinated.

And related to masks, "If masks work, why aren't they working?"

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: August 26, 2021 06:55PM

Lurker 1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And related to masks, "If masks work, why aren't
> they working?"

Because Covidiots don’t wear them and when they do, they wear them like chin diapers.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: August 26, 2021 07:51PM

Lurker 1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't believe any study that states the vaccine
> does much in preventing either infection or
> disease in the vaccinated.

You start your post by saying your opinion is based on anecdotal evidence. That can sometimes be useful for some objectives but not in every circumstance.

> It is not what I am seeing in my area.

There is a significant drawback to basing judgement only on anecdotal input and/or one's own (limited in many ways) experience. It is often not a comprehensive study of a situation, confined only to what a person witnesses or hears, likely a small sample size indeed as well as providing incomplete/limited information about any given situation.

Here in B.C. this is what they're saying about rates of vaccination and infection as well as the best medical science recommendations going forward:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/unvaccinated-vaccinated-covid-data-bc-1.6151008

Excerpts:

“Unvaccinated in B.C. hospitalized with COVID-19 at a rate 17 times higher than fully vaccinated.

“New vaccine data provided by the B.C. government shows the province's fourth wave of the COVID-19 pandemic is primarily — though not exclusively — a pandemic among the unvaccinated.

“Of the 113 new hospitalizations for COVID-19 between Aug. 10 and Aug. 16, 95 were among people completely unvaccinated, compared to just 12 for fully vaccinated people and six who were partly vaccinated.

“During that time frame, approximately 1.45 million British Columbians were unvaccinated, meaning 25 per cent of the province was responsible for 84 per cent of COVID-19 hospitalizations.

“Adjusted for population, 6.56 unvaccinated people per 100,000 in B.C. were hospitalized that week compared to 0.37 per 100,000 who were fully vaccinated, a rate 17.7 times higher.

"It just reduces that likelihood of becoming infected to a great degree," said University of British Columbia mathematician Daniel Coombs, who has advised the B.C. government on its modelling projections and is co-lead of the B.C. COVID-19 modelling group.

"It's hard to say exactly how much it helps, but basically people who have been vaccinated, they seem to be considerably less infectious than people who are not vaccinated."

“The data … is similar to what has been observed in other provinces that release the figures on a daily basis.

"The science is clear," said B.C.'s Provincial Health Officer Bonnie Henry on Monday, giving a brief overview of the numbers…
“[they want to encourage] unvaccinated people to register for a shot, [which] further decrease[s] the risk of vaccinated people becoming infected in public areas.

"And with the number of people who have been vaccinated, this also means that the restrictions can be a little milder and more targeted."

The latter objective, of course, is much welcomed by everyone. If infection rates are higher in one location then additional measures are implemented there only, avoiding total shutdown or mandating all measures in the entire province when the problem is only in a smaller area.

Lurker 1:
>I do believe it will keep the symptoms down, flatten the curve, and keep the emergency rooms and ICU's available for real emergencies.

The 'it' you refer to is vaccination, from your context. The experts have said from the beginning these are indeed their major objectives in rolling out the mandates (masks, distancing) and developing the vaccines.

Doesn't it seem like these are major life-saving achievements made possible by vaccinating the population?

In some areas, if more people were vaccinated, thereby avoiding infection or minimizing symptoms if infected and stopping spread (masks) we wouldn't be hearing about ER and ICU wards being over-full and not accepting even urgent cases such as cancer patients in crisis and those with other severe illnesses. That is one of the first reasons given at the beginning of the pandemic for governments adopting the preventive measures they have done.

>Wearing a mask, if it is even
> effective, only protects those adults who choose
> to not be vaccinated.

Masks are effective. This has been a proven protective measure in medicine for longer than we've been alive. (Think Spanish flu - 1918).

The principles of infection have been known since the early-mid 1800s (Louis Pasteur, Joseph Lister).

The knowledge about quarantine/distancing is evident from at least the 1660s (Eyam - "Village of the Damned") when the villagers shut themselves off from human contact to avoid spreading the Black Death (plague).

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-35064071


As for your point about masks only protecting those who choose not to be vaccinated, I don't follow your reasoning here.


Lurker 1:
> And related to masks, "If masks work, why aren't
> they working?"

They *are* working. If people use them correctly, as mentioned in a post above.

I live in an area that had a high infection rate at the beginning of the pandemic. My turn for vaccination was way in the future. I limited my activities to only necessary ones and always wore a mask when out and about in public. There were many activities I put on hold as well as socialization in person. Despite a significant risk in my community, due to the high rates of disease occurrence, I managed to avoid getting infected, as did many others, in no small part because a mask mandate came in early and most people complied.

There are reasons why infection rates continue and indeed increase at the present time. This can be seen in the percentage of population vaccinated (too low in some areas) and the fact that in many areas masks are not mandated or a significant percentage of people don't comply.

Jumping to a conclusion that vaccines and masks don't work because infections continue to occur is not logical nor accurate.

As above, I don't grasp your point about how masks only protect the unvaccinated. But doesn't that belie your other comment about how masks aren't working?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2021 07:55PM by Nightingale.

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