Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: August 31, 2021 11:38PM

Nobody was handing out free tin foil and directions for effective hat folding. Talk about a missed opportunity.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 04:56PM

Hopefully they will have police support for future vaccine clinics.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: nonmo_1 ( )
Date: September 02, 2021 08:51AM

Aren't they defunding the police there?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Cauda ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 05:24PM

Watched a baptist-sermon online. It was from Tennesse. Was shocked to see how packed the building was. Just looked at the Worldometers web-site on how the state were doing and it looks really really bad. USA will hopefully not reach 700.000 deaths, but it looks like there is a great risk they will..

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 05:36PM

I haven't been to that website in a while. The U.S. is currently sitting in the number one spot with over 659,000 deaths. Worldwide, it's more than 4.5 million.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 06:43PM

Some facts aren't really all that true, in the sense of being Truly True.

It's like when your team loses, but you still know it was the better team, and nothing has changed, and overall, it's still the very best team ever, when you factor out all those stupid final scores, and just listen to your heart!

Go Cougars!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 07:07PM

> It's like when your team loses, but you still
> know it was the better team, and nothing has
> changed, and overall, it's still the very best
> team ever, when you factor out all those stupid
> final scores, and just listen to your heart!

Subtle but brilliant. This is why She Who Must Be Obeyed occasionally lets you out of your cage.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Cauda ( )
Date: September 02, 2021 03:58AM

A family member told me that another family member refuse to take the vaccine. Do not know if it is true because I have not talked to the anti-vaxxer since december 2019. The anti-vaxxer is a dedicated off-the-grider always mentally planning for the going to ”hill in the baskethand” in the future.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Cauda ( )
Date: September 02, 2021 03:50AM

Do not know the credibility but the site cites their sources. Most of it are public stats. Forgot about the site until news started past weeks to be posted about the rise of Covid-cases. When I write Covid in the youtube-search field I get videos from American and Australian news channels.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Eric K ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 08:14PM

I have posted a few times that a new Baptist Church had a grand opening last spring and many contracted the virus and a number died a few weeks later who attended. Some of those folks were rather prominent in the area. I can walk to this mega-church from my home.

On Sundays, we have to time when we leave our home. There are hundreds if not more than a thousand plus, leaving all at the same time. Police direct traffic on the 2 lane road at the end of services. We can be stuck for 10 minutes or more as the Baptists have priority over us heathens waiting to get out of our subdivision.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: cricket ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 08:24PM

within sight of my home. Geez, Eric, sorry to hear this about the mass hysteria feeding that megachurch. My love and respect for humanity is like the stock market, full of ups and downs.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: cl2notloggedin ( )
Date: September 02, 2021 07:19PM

There is a Catholic church, a Baptist church, and a stake center within a block of my house (in different directions) and about a mile away is a Jehovah's Witness chapel? I don't know what JW call theirs. Kingdom Hall or something?

Never thought I'd live by this many churches.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 09:11PM

That is definitely a thing.

In Alabama where I lived, we had that same traffic problem around the big churches close to where I lived (there were several of them). Police were directing traffic every Sunday to get the people out of the church parking lot. Honestly, it was like a football game event or something.

Then, the restaurants right after would be jammed with all the church goers. I quickly learned what times to avoid the main highway and to go to restaurants on off times on Sundays.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 08:46PM

I messed this one up. Will fix it. Sorry.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2021 09:57PM by Nightingale.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 09:37PM

The top story on tonight's news coverage was a massive protest outside one of Vancouver's biggest hospitals. Police said they were surprised at the large crowd, they weren't expecting those numbers.

Protestors were calling for "health freedom" and "body autonomy". Signs read "We have rights" and "Freedom not force". Protestors mentioned not wanting a "police state".

77.6% of people living in B.C. have been fully vaccinated. Even so, a recent public health statement informed us that a vaccine "passport" or certificate will soon be mandatory to be admitted to businesses such as restaurants, bars, gyms, personal care, etc., even though there's a mask mandate back in place (after it was withdrawn for a couple of weeks and the case counts went back up).

It's the "passport" idea that has evoked the biggest and most angry response to date. One of today's protestors said that a passport is "a slippery slope" so that's his objection (I guess he means to government control?).

Another protestor said we have a choice about whether to wear seatbelts so likewise should have the same choice about vaccines. Problem is, we do NOT have a choice about whether to buckle up or not - it's mandatory in BC to wear seatbelts. That the guy doesn't know that basic traffic safety law is mind-boggling. That he thinks his flawed example augments his objection to health mandates is scary too.

Perhaps the most disheartening interview was the one with long term care workers who said it's not fair that they will lose their jobs if they don't get vaccinated (another new mandate just announced). Speaking of boggling the mind, I can't believe that people who work in LTC facilities are still going to work unvaccinated. It is well proven by the numbers that the largest segment of our population that was decimated last year by COVID-19 has been the elderly residents of care homes. In every case of COVID in a long term care home, the infection came from OUTSIDE the home; i.e., was brought in by a worker or visitor. Visitors were soon not allowed in so all infections after that came from staff. Very. Clear. Evidence. Vaccines and masks save lives, especially of the most vulnerable among us.

One of the LTC workers said how unfair the vaccine mandate is, stating "last year's heroes are now being pushed out of their jobs". I don't understand what people are thinking. How can you work in health care or long term care with a vulnerable elderly population and reject the most basic science by not getting the vaccination?

A surgeon up country took pictures of the demonstrations also taking place in his area today. His photos that were shown on the news were titled "View from the OR" and showed crowds demonstrating outside the hospital, protesting vaccines and masks. He said "I'm very disappointed in my community today".

Yes, indeed.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2021 09:47PM by Nightingale.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 11:14PM

Here in Utah it's even more troubling. That's great that 77% have been fully vaccinated in British Columbia, how they managed to get those high numbers I really don't have an explanation. Here in Utah we are sitting at 48%. The Anti maskers appear to have a good argument, they want to have freedom, they don't want the government dictating how to live. They don't want to have the vaccine passports which is the first step towards having the chip implanted (mark of the beast) and being forbidden to buy and sell without the chip which is supposedly what Bill Gates and others want to do. A chip that tracks humans and lets the evil government bureaucrats know what we are doing, where we are going. a chip that can be programed to control our bodies and minds and make us do terrible and embarrassing things, a chip that turns us into robots. These people think that by government mandating business (destroy business and jobs) they will make more people reliant on the government entitlements and welfare, 'you will own nothing and be happy.'

As far as I can see it's a good vaccine, I had both of mine and it worked well. But for American democracy and libertarianism to work we need to have an informed citizenery, educated people, people who are willing to employ self-government. Something has failed us though at least here in Utah. Most people aren't governing themselves right, they need big daddy government to tell them what to do. Power is a dangerous thing, but most aren't smart enough to do the right thing.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ookami ( )
Date: September 02, 2021 12:35AM

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here in Utah it's even more troubling. That's
> great that 77% have been fully vaccinated in
> British Columbia, how they managed to get those
> high numbers I really don't have an explanation.

I do: Canadians think using your brain is a good thing.

> Here in Utah we are sitting at 48%. The Anti
> maskers appear to have a good argument, they want
> to have freedom, they don't want the government
> dictating how to live.

Do you side with the dimwits who claim seatbelts, laws against Driving Under the Influence, and forbidding dumping toxic waste in the water supply restrict "freedom?" Because being dangers to themselves and others doesn't sound like freedom to me.

> They don't want to have the
> vaccine passports which is the first step towards
> having the chip implanted (mark of the beast) and
> being forbidden to buy and sell without the chip
> which is supposedly what Bill Gates and others
> want to do.

And what led you to this conclusion? Because only glue sniffers on conspiracy theory sites think this.

> A chip that tracks humans and lets the
> evil government bureaucrats know what we are
> doing, where we are going.

Guy, you realize your phone's SIM card tracks you, right?

And I've worked for the government; the bureaucrats may be petty and self-important, but they're more incompetent than evil.

> a chip that can be
> programed to control our bodies and minds and make
> us do terrible and embarrassing things,

Guy, hypnosis doesn't even make you do something you really don't want to do, what makes you think that some imaginary chip can do that?

> a chip
> that turns us into robots. These people think that
> by government mandating business (destroy business
> and jobs) they will make more people reliant on
> the government entitlements and welfare, 'you will
> own nothing and be happy.'

So, instead of restricting business to keep as many taxpaying citizens alive, the government want to tank the economy to keep people on "entitlements and welfare" that can and do run out? And there are folks dumb enough to think this?

>
> As far as I can see it's a good vaccine, I had
> both of mine and it worked well.

I am actually surprised you had enough sense to get vaccinated.

> But for American
> democracy and libertarianism to work we need to
> have an informed citizenery, educated people,
> people who are willing to employ self-government.

Weren't you the one who was always going on about how kids need to work instead of learning about non-Manifest Destiny history and math?

> Something has failed us though at least here in
> Utah. Most people aren't governing themselves
> right, they need big daddy government to tell them
> what to do. Power is a dangerous thing, but most
> aren't smart enough to do the right thing.

Might I make a suggestion to the state of Utah: PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES! The government is not out to control your life (that's Mormonism's goal) and the education system works better when students are learning everything, not just propaganda that gives them warm-fuzzies.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 02, 2021 12:55AM

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But for American
> democracy and libertarianism to work . . .

The United States is not a "libertarian" country. It's a country that values liberty, which in important ways is the opposite of "libertarian." The distinction is important.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: September 02, 2021 05:49AM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: September 02, 2021 07:10PM

"A chip that can be programed to control our bodies and minds and make us do terrible and embarrassing things, a chip that turns us into robots."

They don't seem to mind when their church does it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: September 04, 2021 01:34AM

Here in backward, illiterate, dirt-poor New Mexico, we are 60.4% fully vaccinated. DH and I are among them. We wear masks everywhere.

DH told me a few weeks ago that when he was shopping in Walmart, some burly character told him, "Hey, man, you're past the security guard. Take the mask off." DH said he preferred to keep it on. The other guy then reached up and tried to pull off DH's mask.

He wasn't counting on a 70-year-old guy with years of martial arts training. Quick as a snake, DH blocked the oncoming arm and said, loudly, "BACK OFF!!"

The "freedom fighter" wisely did as he was told to do.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: September 04, 2021 01:49AM

How bloody RUDE! What an ass. Good for Hubby. Give him a high five for me :)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 02, 2021 03:42PM

OK. Fixed it. (Above, I got the links all messed up so I nuked that post).

We've got our share of vaccine hesitant and anti- here in Canada (to my surprise). They are enjoying a larger presence and impact at the moment because we're in the middle of a federal election campaign. Their protests against our campaigning PM have shut down at least three political events so far. I'm sure they're loving the bigger impact they're having with national news and news outlets from many provinces including their protests as part of election coverage.

Here are some of the comments in the news about the events they got cancelled last week:

Globe and Mail August 27, 2021

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/federal-election-2021/second-week-of-campaign-ends-with-trudeau-rally-cancelled-for-safety-concerns-1.5563503

Excerpts:

“An outdoor event for Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau near Toronto was cancelled on Friday due to security concerns prompted by protesters.

“A podium was set up for Mr. Trudeau to speak and circles were drawn on the ground for physical distancing for supporters attending the event. But prior to Mr. Trudeau’s arrival, a number of protesters, many of them opponents of COVID-19 vaccination, gathered and began to scream expletives. Some also waved flags and held signs.

“[There was] use of obscene and extreme language…

“Local police, as well as RCMP, were on site.

“... Mr. Trudeau said the event had to be cancelled because going ahead would have put supporters at risk.

“A number of demonstrators on the campaign trail have expressed reservations about vaccines, an issue that has been a key focus for Mr. Trudeau. He has often told protesters at other events to go and get vaccinated.

“He said he is not going to stop talking to Canadians, who are going to decide, not just how to end the pandemic, but how the country moves forward.

Trudeau: “We all had a difficult year. And those folks out protesting? They had a difficult year too.”

“Mr. Trudeau said over the past year with this pandemic there has been an increase in anxiety, anger, frustration, and sense of powerlessness. “I’ve never seen this intensity of anger on the campaign trail, or in Canada.”

“He said he won’t change his message that the way out of the pandemic is to get vaccinated.”


CTV article re the same event, August 27, 2021:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/federal-election-2021/second-week-of-campaign-ends-with-trudeau-rally-cancelled-for-safety-concerns-1.5563503

Excerpts:

“Dozens of protesters followed the Liberal campaign to the rally. They used expletives in chants, waved their middle fingers, and made references to the Nazis over megaphones as a line of police stood in front of them.

“It was the third such incident Friday where Trudeau was confronted by angry demonstrators upset with his government's push on vaccine passports and vaccine mandates for travellers.

“Protesters who oppose masks, vaccines and lockdown measures to fight COVID-19 have dogged the Liberal leader on the campaign trail, but he has usually politely waved back and often yelled through his mask, "get vaccinated."

“Some have brought their children to yell at Trudeau, with one on Friday night holding an orange sign that read "I need freedom." The crowd cheered when officials announced that Friday's event was cancelled.

“He said the current unrest and anger among parts of the population needed to be met with compassion, but added that science has pointed to vaccinations as the best way out of the COVID-19 pandemic.

"We have to stand strong for what we know to be true. Science is going to help us through this, it is going to be the path forward out of this," Trudeau said. "But we have to make sure we are hearing those real concerns and responding to them as best we can."

-----

I'm surprised at the fury and potential violence at these protests. I know that politics elicits fervour from true believers in anything but this is a new one on us.

It's disheartening that people take their children to protests where the adults display anger and disrespect as well as non-cooperation with police and use of profane words and gestures.
Is that really how you want to teach your children to make a statement or express an opinion?

Too, the charge of being "Nazis" is so ridiculous it's hard to take people seriously when they resort to such slurs. However, the consequences can definitely be serious.

I think it may be somewhat helpful to acknowledge, as Trudeau does, that people who are vaccine hesitant, or even those who are vehemently anti-vax, are stressed and have struggled with the problems and repercussions of the pandemic just as the rest of us have. He called for compassion. That is how I usually feel to start with when people are hesitant or even outright refusing the vaccine, because going instantly to arguing just entrenches their position. Although, true enough, it's tough to avoid feeling impatient or angry in turn at vaccine refusal due to the stakes being so high, especially as the projections for the upcoming fourth wave of COVID are grim. Many physicians and nurses are speaking out about ICU and ERs already being at capacity, before the fourth wave, with many patients in some geographic areas having to be relocated due to capacity issues. Medical personnel also speak of their skyrocketing stress levels, potential burnout and dread at the prospect of what might be to come in the fall and winter seasons with the virus and variants.

I appreciate that after his events were cancelled due to anti-vaccine protestors Trudeau went on to say directly that science is what will end the pandemic so we can all get back to normal. I hope more people will respond to that concept. That has been the standard for as long as I know and it has been baffling to me why suddenly so many people choose to outright refuse to listen to the science and medicine folks who've always been there for us before. Of course, there are parents who have exempted their children from receiving routine vaccinations so their opinion about the COVID vax for themselves, and their children when/if the time comes, is already set in stone. They list several reasons for their position and religious belief is one of them.


In a CTV News article in October 2019 (so, before the pandemic took hold in 2020) the writer stated the following re religious objections to vaccines in general:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/scholars-say-religious-vaccine-objections-can-t-be-traced-to-biblical-sources-1.4643508

"Toronto Public Health is now asking Ontario to no longer allow people to opt-out [of getting a vaccination] for religious or philosophical reasons -- objections that some scholars claim can't actually be traced to Biblical or academic sources.

"The truth is, no major religion objects to vaccines," says University of Guelph philosophy professor Maya Goldenberg, who has written a book on vaccine hesitancy due in 2020.

"There are sects within the major religions, like some evangelical churches, or even sects of Judaism and other religions that have determined that they do not vaccinate but it's not grounded in religious doctrine, it's more about the interpretation of doctrine."

"Nor does Goldenberg believe there are philosophical objections if that's understood to mean ideas "grounded in some kind of philosophical framework." She prefers to describe such views as "personal beliefs" or "conscientious objections."

"It might be grounded in some philosophical ideas about nature and privileging of naturalness over artificial medical intervention, but there isn't really a philosophy of vaccine refusal."

"In Ontario, provincial data does not specify which exemptions are based on religion versus personal beliefs, but together they vastly outnumber exemptions based on medical reasons.

"Len Riemersma, a pastor at Maranatha Christian Reformed Church in Bowmanville, Ont., says he'd prefer the word "religious" not be associated with exemptions at all, since he, too, knows of no Biblical reason to oppose vaccines.

"While he believes God uses many different means to bring about healing -- including medicine -- he says others believe they should "rely only on God."

"It's the small little groupings here on the outskirts and on the margins that say, 'Oh, it's this way.' And then somehow it becomes a religious issue when in most cases, it's not -- it's an interpretation issue. And to lump it all as religious is kind of unfair to the mainstream groups," says Riemersma.

"Nevertheless, he cautions against the province wading into religion, worrying it could be a "slippery slope" to infringing on religious and other Charter rights.

"For one institution to say, 'Well, we can tell the religious community what they can and cannot do,' then where does that stop? I'm a little afraid of that," he says. "As soon as one says, 'Well, we can dictate what's going on,' then you're on dangerous ground as far as I'm concerned."

Vaccine Choice Canada states "Vaccine mandates ignore our right to informed consent, security of the person, self-autonomy and bodily integrity, which includes the fundamental human right to decide what one allows, or doesn't allow, into oneself and one's children."

The article goes on: "Many also fear acknowledged risks of getting vaccines, which have included rare instances of serious adverse reactions, while religious concerns include claims that vaccines include aborted fetal tissue, a spokeswoman added by email.”

"The medical community has debunked widely disseminated claims that vaccines involve human tissue."

-----

So, not all anti-vax choices are based in religious objections. Some are and I’m interested in ferreting out the reasons for that. I know that some EV churches here in B.C. have refused to follow public health guidelines or even mandates (about curtailing or closing church services) since early on and some of them, as well as individual pastors, have been subject to warnings and fines as well as negative publicity. Some of them chose to proclaim that their freedom of worship was being infringed upon. Most, though, and the ones I consider mainstream, have followed all public health recommendations.

What is challenging is that the ideas based in religious belief are notoriously difficult to uproot. Even if you can allay some objections (such as the “aborted fetus” one) people seem to still double down on their original stance anyway. Indeed, we’ve seen in discussion here at RfM that some who said they were holding off on getting the vaccine because it hadn’t been approved by the FDA still maintained their anti- position following announcement that the FDA has given “full approval” to the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. So maybe some of those holding out weren’t intending to receive a vaccine at all anyway or who knows what.

Still, I’m amazed that famously passive Canadians (not a 100% accurate depiction!) hear a call to arms for the vaccine controversy. As the PM said, ““I’ve never seen this intensity of anger … in Canada.” It’s as if people all over have simultaneously lost inhibitions and decorum, not to mention a consensus about the most basic of scientific principles and our general way of being.

There is always hope, though (until there isn’t) as many here are now flocking to the pop-up vaccine clinics all around and about, some explaining that they’re doing so due to the upcoming vaccine certificate (“passport”) that is mandated (starting in a couple of weeks) for much of the business of daily living that we’re all engaged in. One man said this morning “I want to be able to go out and enjoy my life”. That’s as good a reason as any to follow expert medical advice for one’s own sake and the sake of others. We all want to get through this thing. Together is better. Go team. ‘N all that.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2021 03:49PM by Nightingale.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 ********  ********    *******   **     **  **     ** 
 **    **  **     **  **     **   **   **   **     ** 
     **    **     **  **     **    ** **    **     ** 
    **     ********    ********     ***     ********* 
   **      **                **    ** **    **     ** 
   **      **         **     **   **   **   **     ** 
   **      **          *******   **     **  **     **