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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 12:01AM

As you all know, the church quietly endorsed the vaccines at the beginning of the summer and then doubled down a couple of weeks ago. Now the Q15 is fully committed both to the Fauci Ouchie, if I my purloin that juvenile phrase, and to full masking.*

The question is why an organization so intent on avoiding political topics that may offend the Mormon Right would take on a lightning rod like COVID countermeasures. I mean, they won't punish Ammon Bundy's illegality nor overtly criticize the attempted coup of January 6, both of which are stark violations of Mormon doctrine and rules. So why would they go out on a limb regarding one of the most sensitive topics around? What would motivate them to take such a step.

My surmise is that the alternative--conducting services remotely, accepting that attendance must be low--is proving too costly. In short, Mormons are realizing that they don't need to go to church and that their lives are better when the do not. We've all commented on this and wondered aloud whether the church will be hurt irreparably by the isolation caused by the pandemic.

I believe the church has now acknowledged that this is a real threat. The Q15 appear to have recognized that the church must get the members back in the pews lest it forever lose a good portion of them. They are so anxious on this score that they are willing to risk a deeper rift between the mainstream and the DezNat movement and its sympathizers.

Does that make sense?





*https://www.abc4.com/news/religion/get-vaccinated-church-urges-latter-day-saints-in-new-letter/

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 12:11AM

It's all about appearances.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 12:16AM

Really, for all the claims about having guidance from a higher power, just what have they done to help? Nothing.

It was all just "man behind the curtain" talk. The emperor was naked and all that.

Maybe they are willing to use the the divide and conquer technique.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 12:19AM

They can divide, but I have not seen the Q15 conquer anything beyond the user manual for a new wheel chair.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 12:25AM

Snicker

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 01:20AM

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The emperor was naked and all that.

My other new convert pal in the church and I used to sit together in SM and whisper this to each other and snicker. Juvenile but amusing.

Little did we know how true it was.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 12:26AM

I heard President Nelson say the church is obligated to share the gospel with everyone but in today’s secular world the sharing might not bring in the numbers of converts hoped for. The harvest might be smaller than we would like but we still have a lot of work ahead and the responsibility to share it.

I think you have two kinds of leaders in the church. Numbers driven ones. This is the group who would stress about not being able to attend church due to quarantine resulting in more inactive members.

Others like Russ seem to take the attitude of seeing the pandemic as a trial for those on the covenant path to overcome. He’s not so concerned about the numbers as the conviction of who stay. It’s quality and not quantity to Russ.

The church is doing great financially. Tithing is no longer the main income stream. The church can afford and seems to want more dedicated members than more Luke warm ones. Maybe the church wants a weed out.

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Posted by: Dallin Ox ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 12:52AM

"Now the Q15 is fully committed"

I'm not sold on that position. This was just a letter "urging" the shots, leaving the Ammonites and Tuckerdoodles a way out. Now if the church were to add vaxing to the temple recommend interview, or require a vax card to enter the temple, then I'd agree with the all-in stake. But they won't do that; temple attendance would crater.

Nelson likes to get revelation. Mormon as major satanic victory was a revelation. The Policy of Exclusion was a revelation, as was its reversal. A General Conference address about a new revelation that the shots are god's answer to their fasting & prayers, and imposing a church-wide mandate, would be truly picking a side. But they won't do that either. The Q15 has lost control of the beast.

Unless and until they do, it's just a series of half-measures and hoping it will suffice.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 01:02AM

You are right. I misspoke when I said the church was "fully" committed.

That said, they have gone further than before with COVID and are risking a quiet backlash of the sort and magnitude that arose when they sided with immigrants, legal and illegal, because they represent a rare opportunity for membership growth. I think they see this step as risky and have taken it with reluctance. But as you note, there's not a chance in Hades that they'll make it a temple recommend question or declare it as a new revelation.

In fact, calling it a revelation would merely beg the question why God didn't speak to them at the beginning--or before--the pandemic began.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 02:57AM

It’s public relations. The church is a business. Saying we suggest taking the shots is a plus in the business world because you get on the good side of the government and the big banks (who own the politicians). But leaving it open to personal choice does not alienate you with the “never surrender your freedom for safety” crowd.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 01:16AM

The church has lost control.

When the prophet speaks the thinking is done no longer applies.

Twice they urged wear a mask and get shots. The members revolted.

When the wanted to build a temple in Tooele the members voted them off the property.

When they wanted to modify the Manti temple and tear out the murals the members revolted to such an extent they're building a different temple near by.

When Minute Man Holland made his speech on gays the members shamed Holland.

When meetings opened again many yawned and said no thanks.

The list goes on.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 02:59AM

Isn’t it wonderful!

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 02:15AM

The church has gone all in on a mask mandate for BYU-P. I was surprised when that came down. However, all the major state universities in Utah now have vaccination mandates for students. I will believe the church is fully committed when their universities have vaccine mandates as well.

I think making vaccination a TR question is bizarre. Vaccination is a public health issue, not a righteousness issue. However, requiring vaccination to participate in temple sessions is a perfectly reasonable public health move, especially considering the age of the temple workers and many of the participants.

BTW, the reason Utah state universities could issue vaccine mandates was the legislated prohibition of mandates applied to vaccines with emergency authorization. Once Pfizer had full approval, the universities could and did issue mandates. I get the feeling that some legislators wish they had prohibited all vaccine mandates.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 03:01AM

The students should wear rainbow colored masks. Ha! Ha!

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 11:39AM

I am sure there will be some rainbow masks!

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Posted by: gnpe1 ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 02:40AM

they know almost precisely what % of members & tithe-payers subscribe to the 'Follow the Profit' theme, first priority is to cater to that cohort; so occasionally their messages deal with the trivial, the minute & obvious details of life & living to keep the rank-and-file close to the teat;

No Surprise on that!

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Posted by: GNPE! ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 03:05AM

When the GAs get (too) specific about things, it often if not usually gets them into trouble (which of course they don't acknowledge)

For this started with McC's book calling the RC church the Great & Abominable...

another lesson in Fence-Sitting for God's conduit.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 03:18AM

Fortuitously, Tiger just started another thread that supports my argument here. In his words,

"And most tellingly [the bishop] said a significant number of people had contacted him to say their testimony had essentially vanished during the pandemic lockdowns. . . I don't know how many a significant number is but it makes sense given that during all the hybrid meetings in person sacrament attendance has been 95% over 60's. The younger ones with families simply haven't come out at all."

On the basis of those losses, the church in the UK is ending the online or hybrid meetings and demanding that members return to the pews and razor-wire walls. Tiger's report is consistent with my surmise that the church wants masks and vaccinations ASAP to stop the membership losses from continuing.

And no, I haven't paid Tiger for his post. . . Not yet.




https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2391800



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2021 03:20AM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 11:31AM

for lot's wife:
You know how much I hate to agree with you but for this issue we are definitely in agreement

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 01:23PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They are so anxious on this
> score that they are willing to risk a deeper rift
> between the mainstream and the DezNat movement and
> its sympathizers.

I don't think they risk a rift at all. No "church within the church" seems to be pursued and punished by mainstream Mormonism. They are happy and content to let their people go as long as they retain control. They are the Joe's billionaires. Keep the Smith story in circulation, keep conservative, keep sweet and keep sending missionaries out.

It is like a corporation too big to fail. Bad news it good news. Try not to change too much for the base and keep the org alive and well fed with investments and tithing.

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Posted by: Tiger ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 01:52PM

Lots wife all donations gratefully received.
Beer tokens or anything for the vegetable plot. :-)

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 03, 2021 12:56AM

I have some seeds that were sent to me from China. Can I forward those to you?

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Posted by: Free Man ( )
Date: September 01, 2021 11:42PM

"The question is why an organization so intent on avoiding political topics that may offend the Mormon Right would take on a lightning rod like COVID countermeasures."

Because most mormons are on the left, much like RFM. I do read a right wing LDS site, and many of them are leaving. It is the left-wingers who love the church leaders.

And like most corporations/religions, the church is trying to become as woke as possible.

Not sure why you say they quietly endorsed the vaccines, my brother a bishop has been pushing it for quite a while, quoting Nelson who said it was a "literal godsend" and answer to prayer.

Much like what is said on RFM.

I've mentioned a few issues with my TBM siblings and they don't like skeptical thought regarding vaccines - it is a threat to their faith.

Much like RFM.

And like RFM, at church you are told without masks and vaccines, you are selfish and evil.

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Posted by: ookami ( )
Date: September 02, 2021 12:11AM

Free Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Because most mormons are on the left, much like
> RFM.

Mormons are on the left? HAHAHAHA!

> I do read a right wing LDS site, and many
> of them are leaving. It is the left-wingers who
> love the church leaders.

You keep saying that "the left" like the Morg. I don't think that means what you think it means.

>
> And like most corporations/religions, the church
> is trying to become as woke as possible.

Define "woke." Because you use it like you think it means, "anything Free Man, the self-appointed center of the universe, doesn't like."

>
> I've mentioned a few issues with my TBM siblings
> and they don't like skeptical thought regarding
> vaccines - it is a threat to their faith.
>
> Much like RFM.

Guy, vaccines don't run on faith. They work by having an inactive strain of the virus injected so the body's white blood cells can identify and adapt to the virus to prevent future infections. It worked for smallpox, it worked for polio, and it works for measles.

Of course, you probably thought that calling it faith would make you seem like the rational one, didn't you?

>
> And like RFM, at church you are told without masks
> and vaccines, you are selfish and evil.

Not evil, just a fool.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 02, 2021 01:01AM

Free Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Because most mormons are on the left

Yes. If you ignore party affiliations, voting records, support for Trump, Mormon doctrine and policy, cultural values, and state laws, Mormons are on the left.

Right?

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 02, 2021 10:27AM

Are you doing the Cupid Shuffle? I don't think you know what most Mormons are like.

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Posted by: Groucho ( )
Date: September 02, 2021 09:55AM

If they’re for it, I’m against it.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: September 02, 2021 11:23AM

The Q15 endorsed the medical community and Government to provide solutions to battle sars-cov-2.

I received a forwarded email with their message.

I replied with why doesn't the self proclaimed prophet ask his God for the solution? It could save millions of God's children.

We all know the answer as to why Q15 are just neutered tards with one foot in the grave.

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Posted by: adoylelb ( )
Date: September 03, 2021 03:16PM

Antivaxxers will have to decide which cult they support, Mormonism or their conspiracy cult.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 03, 2021 03:26PM

Yes, but the Q15 are moving slowly. They are anxious not to drive that wedge very deep.

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